Why can't God send us all to Heaven?

razzelflabben said:

Now, you highlighted one phrase in blue that could suggest a man and nothing more, .../quote]

Read about cherubim [false double plural 'cherubims' in some translations , 'cherubim' is the plural of 'cherub' from Hebrew]

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

I mean, one has to read all the scripture, really, not make things up ... else one leads oneself and possibly others astray

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stranger said:

razzelflabben said:

Now, you highlighted one phrase in blue that could suggest a man and nothing more, .../quote]

Read about cherubim [false double plural 'cherubims' in some translations , 'cherubim' is the plural of 'cherub' from Hebrew]

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

I mean, one has to read all the scripture, really, not make things up ... else one leads oneself and possibly others astray

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??????? I said that the cherubims according to scripture had many wings and 4 faces....you are just now figuring that out? I really don't get what your point is, what am I missing? What point are you trying to make?

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stranger said:

Tyre was the centre of commerce, the major port for the area , where the function of life was making money from profit, not profitting form love of and between fellow man...

So Satan is indeed the king of Tyrus ... but you would have to understand about Tyre to have understood the name... infamous for its evil and described in the rest of scripture, so why not read about it ?

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stranger said:

Perhaps it is I who misunderstood your comment.... my point is that one cannot tell angels from men [as many suppose one can] :-

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

the face of a cherub [such as indeed Jesus and Satan] manifest in this world is the face of a man ... Tyrus was infamous for its sin because it was a place of intense commerce and a major port before being destroyed for that sin ... that Satan is both a man when cast into the earth , a Jew even of the house of Judah [else not acceptable to Jews as the antichrist , 'one in place of Christ' , as required in scripture for his death as a man] AND rhe cherub at the throne of God is no more strange than Jesus, who was a man, now standing as the right-hand cherub at the throne of God ...

It surprises me that folks have little difficulty in seeing Jesus as the 'lion of Judah' and the 'Lamb of God' [albeit not at the same time perhaps , but have trouble seeing Satan as a lion or eagle [as Jesus too, in the spirit] or as the 'king' of an infamously evil city later destroyed ... folks never notice their inconsistency in applying arguments , but grasp at anything when their precious beliefs are reproved by scripture ... it has to be, but what is remarkable is the blindness that teachings of sinners induces ... folks even fight an kill over it rather than admit that they don't have the spirit of truth, don't actuasly know from God , as in fact promised to all who truly follow Jesus, instead of those just saying they do, who remain sinners ...John 16:13 , 1 John 3:8 , 2 Timothy 2:19,Luke 13:27, Matthew 7:23, etc, etc...

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stranger said:

I suspect that we do indeed agree that the 'king of Tyrus' is the left-hand covering sherub at the throne of God , Satan, who having wandered to and fro in the earth many times , finally manifests as the final antichrist and is subject to death, just as Jesus , at right hand of God, right-hand overing cherub was made subject to death as a man...

it explains why the two cherubs covering the throne are identical , the one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in Greek] must fulfil all the requirements of the Messiah [Hebrew version of 'christos', anointed king] , not least being a Jew of the tribe of Judah ...

My unanswered question is who are the other two cherubs , who do not cover the throne , for they too manifest as men, have a period of tearing down the world as a lion, and eventually are translated to spirit as an eagle...

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Ezekiel 10:9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.

What if any characters in history [or future] come even close to being messengers of God comaparable in stature to Jesus and Satan, yet not given the task of concealing the Godhead from mankind [for a time] by covering the throne

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Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

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Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

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Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

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razzelflabben said:

so now your claiming that Jesus and Satan are the same type creature? Both are cherubim? Wow, that is a far cry from what it sounded like you were saying...I am always amazed at how hard people twist things in order to force them to say what it doesn't...have a nice day...may you find truth when you seek it,

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Christ when you look for Him. so now men fly and we can't understand that maybe, just maybe this is figurative speak...okay then...

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we know that Gabriel was an angel, and we know that he flew....but I'm guessing that can all be swept away to make him just a man, right? ah, but in Daniel 9, he was just a man, so there is a problem, according to the way some here translate, he can't be an angel because he was a man. Interesting isn't it?

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Remember I asked you what you intended....I'm still trying to figure it out, but you are confusing the heck out of me.

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razzelflabben said:

can you please show places in scripture where God uses sarcasm to make a point...thanks....I personally can't recall any precident that would suggest this can be read as sarcasm, but admittedly I might be forgetting something, what scriptures show God using sarcasm?

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stranger said:

It amazes me when folks twist what I have said and then go off in a puff of smoke at what they invented...
Christ is clearly not a creature at the beginning as Logos, but only becomes one in Jesus , whereas Satan is created at the beginning as the serpent in the garden

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I don't think there is any evidence of spiritual heaven being out in space if one goes far enough , nor any evidence that angels with wings can fly through space and land on the earth [wings just don't work in space, do they, and God created space so clearly is not dependent on this universe for existence, is 'beyond' it, 'outside' it , a different mode of existence than the physical which our words fail to capture because they evolved from witness of space and time,]

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I dunno what the problem is, but angels can be men , the word translated 'angels' only actually means messengers ...God creates man by mean of the spirit, it is no different for messengers than any other men... as for flying, it is not necessary to fly literally to get from God to earth, nor can one literally fly to heaven , not even with a space rocket... God is creator of space and time , beyond it , yet he creates man... why do you doubt he can create men as messengers?

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If you continue explaining what confuses you in what I said ,then we can discuss it and clarify it [from examining the scripture], surely that is what this place is for ?

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So first you need to check out that 'angels' literally means 'messengers' ,

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and then check out that literal wings are no use whatsoever in getting from heaven to earth ...

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razzelflabben said:

you talked about cherubim and left and right cherubim and how satan and Jesus were those cherubim. If that isn't what you intended, please explain. I have no idea what this is responding to....I don't recall saying anything about where heaven is, or what the angels use their wings for. how does any of this relate to what I said or the OP topic either one? see above...I don't understand how any of this relates to what I said, yet you said it in response to one of my posts. That is what confuses me, how does any of this address what I said or the OP topic? okay, another question for you. I said this some time ago, so what makes you think I need to check it out now. In fact, the first post I made about angels, included this in it. So why should I check it out? What is the point? Especially if we agree on this? again, why would I even want to check this out if I never claimed anything about the use of the wings, only that the scripture describes the cherubim as having wings....? I'm confused as to what the heck you think I said. If you want me to check this out, don't you first need to know what I think the wings were/are used for? How is it that you think it is okay to make false assumptions about anothers post and then not defend your accusations? These are the questions that will clarify things for me.

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Originally Posted by razzelflabben

so now your claiming that Jesus and Satan are the same type creature? Both are cherubim? Wow, that is a far cry from what it sounded like you were saying...I am always amazed at how hard people twist things in order to force them to say what it doesn't...have a nice day...may you find truth when you seek it,
​

It amazes me when folks twist what I have said and then go off in a puff of smoke at what they invented...
Christ is clearly not a creature at the beginning as Logos, but only becomes one in Jesus , whereas Satan is created at the beginning as the serpent in the garden

Christ when you look for Him. so now men fly and we can't understand that maybe, just maybe this is figurative speak...okay then...
​

I don't think there is any evidence of spiritual heaven being out in space if one goes far enough , nor any evidence that angels with wings can fly through space and land on the earth [wings just don't work in space, do they, and God created space so clearly is not dependent on this universe for existence, is 'beyond' it, 'outside' it , a different mode of existence than the physical which our words fail to capture because they evolved from witness of space and time,]

we know that Gabriel was an angel, and we know that he flew....but I'm guessing that can all be swept away to make him just a man, right? ah, but in Daniel 9, he was just a man, so there is a problem, according to the way some here translate, he can't be an angel because he was a man. Interesting isn't it?
​

I dunno what the problem is, but angels can be men , the word translated 'angels' only actually means messengers ...God creates man by mean of the spirit, it is no different for messengers than any other men... as for flying, it is not necessary to fly literally to get from God to earth, nor can one literally fly to heaven , not even with a space rocket... God is creator of space and time , beyond it , yet he creates man... why do you doubt he can create men as messengers?

Remember I asked you what you intended....I'm still trying to figure it out, but you are confusing the heck out of me.
​

If you continue explaining what confuses you in what I said ,then we can discuss it and clarify it [from examining the scripture], surely that is what this place is for ?

So first you need to check out that 'angels' literally means 'messengers' , and then check out that literal wings are no use whatsoever in getting from heaven to earth ...

agape101 said:

That is my opinion. Unless you believe the king of tyre was in the garden of Eden- or that the king of tyre was satan then you have to come up with an opinion too. personally, I am not going to throw out the entire chapters of prophecies to specific rulers and kingdoms for the sake of my own possible extrapolation of particular verse.

It makes no sense that Ezekiel would write a letter to the King of Tyre and it really be meant for Satan- who is not even called out specifically.

If I received a letter addressed to me and it called me lucifer (or another name by which I am not called) and proceeded to charge me with things I did not do; I would just throw it in the trash.

It makes no sense other than what you have conjured to fit your dogma- needing evidence that Satan is a fallen angel because God couldn't possibly made him as the adversary... Well He did. and you seem unwilling to address my point about Satan having no power or authority unless God give it him...

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stranger said:

Here is the last post of yours that I was replying to:-
Originally Posted by razzelflabben

so now your claiming that Jesus and Satan are the same type creature? Both are cherubim? Wow, that is a far cry from what it sounded like you were saying...I am always amazed at how hard people twist things in order to force them to say what it doesn't...have a nice day...may you find truth when you seek it,
​

It amazes me when folks twist what I have said and then go off in a puff of smoke at what they invented...
Christ is clearly not a creature at the beginning as Logos, but only becomes one in Jesus , whereas Satan is created at the beginning as the serpent in the garden

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Soul Searcher said:

Stranger; Have you considered that the reference to Eden in said chapter is figurative and not meant to be taken literally?

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razzelflabben said:

notice the question mark...question marks are indicators that something is not understood. Thus it is a question asking for clarification, not a twisted version of what you said so that I can (what was your word) puff....please highlight the part of this post in which I said that spiritual heaven beings are out in space...I have read it several times and don't see any indication that this is anything other than your twisted version of what I said. I'll entertain your idea if you highlight the portion that you think says that spiritual beings are out in space. again, please highlight the portion of what I said that indicates I said this or believe this. I have no clue what part of what I said you think any of this relates to. Nothing I can find in my post indicates any of these three ideas you attribute to me and yet, instead of pointing out where you get these ideas, you repeat what you said as if it were gospel truth. when was the last time you saw a man with 4 faces and wings? Or a man that looked as if he was on fire? That is the point of my post here...Angels can appear as a man, no problem (btw, I'm not sure why people think that angels can appear to be men but God can't, but that is a different part of this whole discussion) but just because they can appear to look like a man, doesn't mean they are men, or that they are less angels, which is the whole point I was making (now it's time for you to declare that you know more about my intent then I do, and offer a correction to my clarification) Now comes in the flying part....we were told that we should take certain parts of the bible as literal and certain parts figurative. I asked that we use literary rules to determine which was which and I was basically insulted for doing so. Therefore, let me ask you this question...what makes you think for one second that my comment about flying was literal and not figurative. Remember, you can't use literary rules to decide because you have to use the same method you use for scripture. Angels flying, figurative or literal? I'm guessing your gonna claim literal because it fits your chosen agenda. But that isn't enough to go by, and I am sitting right here to tell you the intent.

Point is this, literary rules are there to help us understand the intent of the author. When we refuse to allow literary rules to govern our understanding, we miss the intent and become white washed tombs that reinvent meaning as we go. Much as you did above when you made three comments to my post, none of which I said or believe. see previous post where I addressed this already.

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stranger said:

My apologies if I have misread your words then, ambiguities are common enough on the web , hard to avoid...

my comments about flight only arose from your [as I understood it] insistence that spiritual beings have literal wings to fly with... from heaven to earth ... I couldn't make any sense of that idea...

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If you believe the cherubim [and seraphim for that matter] are symbolically represented, then I agree with you and apologise for misunderstanding your words...

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