Nails in the Coffin of Pre-Trib

John Christian V said:

Gog doesn't invade until after the second coming of Christ. Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe the same event as Revelation 20:7-9. Or are we to believe that Gog and Magog attack twice? Remember, sister, this is not about who's right or who's wrong, it's about what is true. Just trying to help. The events of Ezekiel 37 haven't occurred yet.

Ezekiel 37:22-25
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Yes, a modern nation-state known as Israel was founded in the Promised Land in 1948, but it is counterfeit. The people who call themselves Jews there remain in unbelief. Judaism is an anti-Christ religion. Ezekiel's prophecy does not state that Yahweh's people will return to the land in unbelief.

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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Yes, it happens twice. It happens at first when Israel is gathered back in her land but doesn't yet know her Savior and it happens after the millenium, when Israel has been raised up and dwelling with her Savior for 1000 years.

HisdaughterJen said:

...

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,...

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season...

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The Greek word which you translated as "departure" is apostasia. apostasia means "turning away, rebellion, abandonment, apostasy". So the translation of "falling away" in the King James Version is more accurate than "departure". The Church is not restraining the anti-Christ. John tells us in his first letter the spirit of Anti-Christ is already in the world.

HisdaughterJen said:

Yes, it happens twice. It happens at first when Israel is gathered back in her land but doesn't yet know her Savior and it happens after the millenium, when Israel has been raised up and dwelling with her Savior for 1000 years.

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Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

John Christian V said:

The Greek word which you translated as "departure" is apostasia. apostasia means "turning away, rebellion, abandonment, apostasy". So the translation of "falling away" in the King James Version is more accurate than "departure". The Church is not restraining the anti-Christ. John tells us in his first letter the spirit of Anti-Christ is already in the world.

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Okay, that's not necessarily proof that the church is not restraining the full emergence of the Anti-Christ, but I'm pretty sure that's not what Paul is talking about. Anyway, I encourage you to go read Eusebius' History of the Church where he writes about the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire, and read about what kinds of things Christians suffered during World War II in Europe. It might give you a different perspective on things

John Christian V said:

Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

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Well, let's have a look at it:

Ezekiel 38


1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
13Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.


Ezekiel 39


1Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

(see also Psalm 83)

8Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
15And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
17And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. 29Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

John Christian V said:

Okay, that's not necessarily proof that the church is not restraining the full emergence of the Anti-Christ, but I'm pretty sure that's not what Paul is talking about. Anyway, I encourage you to go read Eusebius' History of the Church where he writes about the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire, and read about what kinds of things Christians suffered during World War II in Europe. It might give you a different perspective on things

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The Greek word APOSTASIA can be broken down, JohnChristian.

APO = to move away
STASIA = place of standing

APOSTASIA means departure.

The English word, apostasy, is based on that Greek word, APOSTASIA, and it means "departure from the faith".

Paul was clear that the church is removed before the Day of the Lord, during which the anti-christ/man of sin is around.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;



Paul told you the order of events here too:


1 Thess 4 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The church restrains the devil.

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.


1Pe 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

'Departure from the faith' is different than 'those who have not departed from the faith disappearing', is it not?

ivebeenshown said:

'Departure from the faith' is different than 'those who have not departed from the faith disappearing', is it not?

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Paul didn't mention a departure from the faith in 2 Thess 2. He mentioned OUR departure:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you


2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,


2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.


2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

Do you see that?

The church is removed, departs, gathered to Christ before the man of sin is revealed...the same man of sin that Christ destroys at the Brightness of His Coming!

HisdaughterJen, the people living in the land of Israel are not dwelling safely. They have bars, and they have gates. Walls even.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Are all of the remaining descendants of Jacob currently gathered in the land of Israel? No, they are not.

I'm not saying I understand or know everything, but I'm not looking for Yahweh to intervene and protect the nation-state of Israel from an attack by Russia and Muslim armies anytime soon. If I'm wrong, so be it, but can you show me any examples from history where God protected Israel when they were in a state of rebellion to His will?

LinkH said:

You shared a lot of interesting things in your post in response to my questions regarding when the church enters into rest. Actually I should have asked when does the church enter into rest according to II Thessalonians 1, which shows that this occurs when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels executing vengence on them that known not God.

This was the one thing I noticed in your replay that gave me pause. If you will notice, II Thessalonians 1 shows that Christ gives the church rest when he is revealed from heaven, when He brings wrath on the wicked, not seven before it. How do you then place these events before the time of Israel's trouble? How do you interpret the II Thessalonians 1 passage?

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There are several words translated as rest. The Sabbath rest for the Church is already entered into.
The Church, as I said, is entered into rest. The world is not, but will, when Jesus returns. For the seven years of the Church standing before the Son of Man in heaven, where they escaped to stand, being counted worthy to escape, Jesus is come out of His place in heaven to avenge His own, on the rulers of the earth, esp the heavenly rulers of darkness who are set over the nations.

The church will be "with" the Son of Man in heaven and the Son of Man will be come out of His place to avenge His own, simultaneously. A celebration in heaven's temple, and an avenging on the inhabitants of the world.

Jesus was the Son of Man, Christ, descended to dwell in the New Man body of flesh for His incarnation, while He was yet the Son of Man in heaven simultaneously.
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

So the church will be with Jesus in heaven, celebrating their consecration, and He will be avenging His own on the earth, for a week of years.
Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may avenge his people.
Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

At this time, the living saints are occupying the world, in His Sabbath Rest which is the eternal state of all born again Believers in Christ.
When the saints are raptured/laqach, removed from the midst, then the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the whole world, and the Church will not be inhabiting it, as Psalm 75:2,3 also shows.

After the laqach of the Church, the Church will be celebrating the consecration of priesthood in the heavenly temple, as priests, fully garmented [in the adoption bodies of the New Man image], standing before the Son of Man in heaven, in His temple, as Lev 8 oracles, in the Law which serves as Tutor about these things. That oracle teaches the celebration behind the doors of the temple is for one week.
I think it corresponds to that last week of Daniel, that seventieth week.


The eternal Sabbath Rest/κατάπαυσις katapausis for believers is entered into when they are born again in Christ:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

yeshuasavedme said:

There are several words translated as rest. The Sabbath rest for the Church is already entered into.
The Church, as I said, is entered into rest. The world is not, but will, when Jesus returns. For the seven years of the Church standing before the Son of Man in heaven, where they escaped to stand, being counted worthy to escape, Jesus is come out of His place in heaven to avenge His own, on the rulers of the earth, esp the heavenly rulers of darkness who are set over the nations.

The church will be "with" the Son of Man in heaven and the Son of Man will be come out of His place to avenge His own, simultaneously. A celebration in heaven's temple, and an avenging on the inhabitants of the world.

Jesus was the Son of Man, Christ, descended to dwell in the New Man body of flesh for His incarnation, while He was yet the Son of Man in heaven simultaneously.
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

So the church will be with Jesus in heaven, celebrating their consecration, and He will be avenging His own on the earth, for a week of years.
Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may avenge his people.
Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isa 27:1 ¶ In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

At this time, the living saints are occupying the world, in His Sabbath Rest which is the eternal state of all born again Believers in Christ.
When the saints are raptured/laqach, removed from the midst, then the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the whole world, and the Church will not be inhabiting it, as Psalm 75:2,3 also shows.

After the laqach of the Church, the Church will be celebrating the consecration of priesthood in the heavenly temple, as priests, fully garmented [in the adoption bodies of the New Man image], standing before the Son of Man in heaven, in His temple, as Lev 8 oracles, in the Law which serves as Tutor about these things. That oracle teaches the celebration behind the doors of the temple is for one week.
I think it corresponds to that last week of Daniel, that seventieth week.


The eternal Sabbath Rest/κατάπαυσις katapausis for believers is entered into when they are born again in Christ:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

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Exactly. Amen. If we ever once just decided to discuss (not debate), "what is the purpose of the Day of The LOrd" and "what is the purpose of the 70th week?" These things would become much, much clearer. The Day of The Lord is God's time to avenge us not test us or kill us. It is when The Lord stands up for His people. So of course we would not be involved in that.

And then understanding our roles as priests under the High Priest Jesus Christ, the rules for concescration at the tabernacle given to Moses and Aaron and concepts like the Sabbath just bring even more detail to know without doubt that those who are saved at the start of the Day of The LOrd, will be caught up in the clouds with Jesus, shut up in their chambers and consecrated until the indignation passes.

NJBeliever said:

Exactly. Amen. If we ever once just decided to discuss (not debate), "what is the purpose of the Day of The LOrd" and "what is the purpose of the 70th week?" These things would become much, much clearer. The Day of The Lord is God's time to avenge us not test us or kill us. It is when The Lord stands up for His people. So of course we would not be involved in that.

And then understanding our roles as priests under the High Priest Jesus Christ, the rules for consecration at the tabernacle given to Moses and Aaron and concepts like the Sabbath just bring even more detail to know without doubt that those who are saved at the start of the Day of The LORD, will be caught up in the clouds with Jesus, shut up in their chambers and consecrated until the indignation passes.

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Yes indeed!

Those who claim that the Church will be here in the tribulation, "preaching the Gospel" cannot have it both ways, for the LORD declares in Isaiah 26 that they are to enter their chambers and hide themselves until the indignation be past. Jesus also says they shall escape who watch and pray that they may be counted worthy to escape and to stand before the Son of Man.
Standing before the Son of Man is OT talk of the place of the priest who is before YHWH in the temple, serving Him there. A priest "stands before YHWH", in His temple, and we who are translated to our priesthood bodies made for beauty and for glory [typed in the Levitical priesthood garments] will stand before YHWH in the Person of the Word, who is the Son of Man in heaven.
There, in the heavenly temple, shut in behind the doors, we will celebrate our consecration as priests in the name of the Firstborn Son of earth, in our beautiful new man garments. We celebrate for a full week, behind the shut doors, as typed in Lev 8, and stated also in Isaiah 26:19-21. Also, in the NT, in the parable of the 5 wise virgins who go in, the doors are shut behind them. Isaiah prophecies about those shut doors, behind which the adopted sons of the Firstborn [sons of the High Priest of earth, Jesus the Christ come in flesh] , celebrate their consecration to priesthood in their new garments.



Then, the Church cannot be here, being the Light shining to the world, or spreading the "Light" of the Gospel of Christ, as there will be no "Light" shining in that day of darkness -none at all, as Amos

Amo 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
יAmos 5:20 yowm יהוה Yĕhovah חשך choshek אור 'owr אפל 'aphel נגה nogahh

nogahh is that bright shining of YHWH that is resident in the believing church
-http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5051&t=KJV

We will not be here during the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath (7th seal) (which will certainly be utter turmoil and full of wrath) but we have been in the great tribulation since the desolation of Israel according to Jesus. Jesus said it ends just before the 6th seal, and Joel 2 says that's when the Northern armies invade Israel and the gathering happens.

There is a Scriptural difference between the time known as the "great tribulation" and the time known as "the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath". The great tribulation is cut short before the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath (full of trumpets, beasts, and bowls - all of which serve to destroy the kingdom of the devil, just like the destruction of Jericho!) even begins.

yeshuasavedme said:

Yes indeed!

Those who claim that the Church will be here in the tribulation, "preaching the Gospel" cannot have it both ways, for the LORD declares in Isaiah 26 that they are to enter their chambers and hide themselves until the indignation be past. Jesus also says they shall escape who watch and pray that they may be counted worthy to escape and to stand before the Son of Man.
Standing before the Son of Man is OT talk of the place of the priest who is before YHWH in the temple, serving Him there. A priest "stands before YHWH", in His temple, and we who are translated to our priesthood bodies made for beauty and for glory [typed in the Levitical priesthood garments] will stand before YHWH in the Person of the Word, who is the Son of Man in heaven.
There, in the heavenly temple, shut in behind the doors, we will celebrate our consecration as priests in the name of the Firstborn Son of earth, in our beautiful new man garments. We celebrate for a full week, behind the shut doors, as typed in Lev 8, and stated also in Isaiah 26:19-21. Also, in the NT, in the parable of the 5 wise virgins who go in, the doors are shut behind them. Isaiah prophecies about those shut doors, behind which the adopted sons of the Firstborn [sons of the High Priest of earth, Jesus the Christ come in flesh] , celebrate their consecration to priesthood in their new garments.



Then, the Church cannot be here, being the Light shining to the world, or spreading the "Light" of the Gospel of Christ, as there will be no "Light" shining in that day of darkness -none at all, as Amos

Amo 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
יAmos 5:20 yowm יהוה Yĕhovah חשך choshek אור 'owr אפל 'aphel נגה nogahh

nogahh is that bright shining of YHWH that is resident in the believing church
-http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5051&t=KJV

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The fact is that the Church, in their translated bodies, stand before the Son of Man in heaven's temple, celebrating for one full week, as Leviticus 8 oracles.
That week is our week of celebration, and Jesus declares in Isaiah 26, that while we are shut in, the indignation passes, on earth. That indignation is the time of Jacob's trouble, and the time of the tribulation, and the time of the avenging of the saints on the rulers of the earth, who rule over it from the kingdom of darkness, set in power, in the heavenlies.

So there the Church is, shut away for seven days, a full week, as typed in the oracles which teach us these truths. One full week is that last week of Daniel's 70, back on earth, which is called the tribulation, and the last consummation of sin on earth, by Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, who wrote of the last things, first, of all prophets.

HisdaughterJen said:

We will not be here during the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath (7th seal) (which will certainly be utter turmoil and full of wrath) but we have been in the great tribulation since the desolation of Israel according to Jesus. Jesus said it ends just before the 6th seal, and Joel 2 says that's when the Northern armies invade Israel and the gathering happens.

There is a Scriptural difference between the time known as the "great tribulation" and the time known as "the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath". The great tribulation is cut short before the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath (full of trumpets, beasts, and bowls - all of which serve to destroy the kingdom of the devil, just like the destruction of Jericho!) even begins.

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Once again there is "great tribulation period." It's just a descriptive term of events that happen during the 70th week.
The Day of the Lord begins at the opening of the 6th Seal and the saints and priests of our High Priest, The Lord Jesus Christ, are caught up in the clouds to be consecrated in Heaven right before it all starts.

NJBeliever said:

Once again there is "great tribulation period." It's just a descriptive term of events that happen during the 70th week.
The Day of the Lord begins at the opening of the 6th Seal and the saints and priests of our High Priest, The Lord Jesus Christ, are caught up in the clouds to be consecrated in Heaven right before it all starts.

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Close.

Yes, the Day of the Lord is about to begin at the time of the 6th seal, and yes, we are caught up to heaven before the 6th seal.

The great tribulation has nothing to do with the 70th week.

Jesus defined it in Matt 24. He told us when it starts and what happens immediately after it and also after it.

HisdaughterJen said:

Close.

Yes, the Day of the Lord is about to begin at the time of the 6th seal, and yes, we are caught up to heaven before the 6th seal.

The great tribulation has nothing to do with the 70th week.

Jesus defined it in Matt 24. He told us when it starts and what happens immediately after it and also after it.

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But see that's the thing, He did not define it. That's been my point to you. It's a descriptive term, not a proper noun. All these terms like 7-year tribulation, Great Trib, etc. are not Biblical periods of time. THe only 2 end time periods are the Day of The Lord and the 70th week of Daniel.

A simple way to know this is that there is no "Great Tribulation" in the Old Testament. Why is this time period never mentioned? Because it's just a description Jesus used to detail the events of the Day of The Lord and the 70th week of Daniel (which He does reference).

NJBeliever said:

But see that's the thing, He did not define it. That's been my point to you. It's a descriptive term, not a proper noun. All these terms like 7-year tribulation, Great Trib, etc. are not Biblical periods of time. THe only 2 end time periods are the Day of The Lord and the 70th week of Daniel.

A simple way to know this is that there is no "Great Tribulation" in the Old Testament. Why is this time period never mentioned? Because it's just a description Jesus used to detail the events of the Day of The Lord and the 70th week of Daniel (which He does reference).

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On the contrary, the abomination of desolation and subsequent tribulation is described until the time of the end:


Luke 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.



Daniel 11:31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


Luke 19:

41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


Daniel 9:26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1 Timothy 2:11-12
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Philippians 3:10-11
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

1 Peter 4:12-13, 17-19
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator

John 15:18-21
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.