Use SCRIPTURES to DEFINE the "TRIBULATION"

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What does JESUS say happens BEFORE the great tribulation?

Answer: Abomination of desolation, the desolation of Israel, the armies that God sent to surround Jerusalem and desolate Israel!

What does JESUS say happens AFTER the great tribulation?

Answer:
#1. Immediately after the tribulation is the 6th seal!
#2. False Christs/false prophets/false miracles arise!

Therefore, does the great tribulation have anything, whatsoever, to do with the Day of the Lord or the anti-christ whom God uses as an instrument of His wrath?

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

Since JESUS said that immediately AFTER the tribulation, then the sun/moon darken/stars fall, here is that moment in Revelation. Note what it says happens AFTER this 6th seal:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Answer: The day of wrath begins after the 6th seal.

So, where is the church as this Day of Wrath is beginning, since by this moment the great tribulation is over?

Here we are, standing in heaven before the 7th seal, wearing white robes that were given in the 5th seal, having come out of great tribulation that ended before the 6th seal:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What does JESUS say happens BEFORE the great tribulation?

Answer: Abomination of desolation, the desolation of Israel, the armies that God sent to surround Jerusalem and desolate Israel!

What does JESUS say happens AFTER the great tribulation?

Answer:
#1. Immediately after the tribulation is the 6th seal!
#2. False Christs/false prophets/false miracles arise!

Therefore, does the great tribulation have anything, whatsoever, to do with the Day of the Lord or the anti-christ whom God uses as an instrument of His wrath?

the word "tribulation" is a common noun throughout the Bible. You should at least look to the grammar and the Greek definition of the term for a thread like this.

Additionally, when you highlight "for then" or "then" in that passage it means "at that time", not " and the next event will be..."

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

NJBeliever said:
the word "tribulation" is a common noun throughout the Bible. You should at least look to the grammar and the Greek definition of the term for a thread like this.

When did Jesus say the great tribulation began and what happens after it in Matt 24?

Additionally, when you highlight "for then" or "then" in that passage it means "at that time", not " and the next event will be..."

According to the Greek Interlinear, the word is "tote", meaning "then".

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
When did Jesus say the great tribulation began and what happens after it in Matt 24?[/quote[

During the 70th Week.

HisdaughterJen said:

According to the Greek Interlinear, the word is "tote", meaning "then".

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. But there is more than one meaning to the word "then." That is what I am trying to explain to you. The meaning in this usage is "at that time." For example.

"My birthday is coming up on September 9th. And then I will receive gifts." Does this mean I receive gifts on September 10th? No, it means that I will receive gifts at that time, meaning during the day of my birthday. This is the proper meaning, usage and context for the passage you quote very often. It is not describing a sequence, it is describing events that will occur during a specific time. There's a big difference.

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

NJBeliever said:
Yes, indeed. But there is more than one meaning to the word "then." That is what I am trying to explain to you. The meaning in this usage is "at that time." For example.

"My birthday is coming up on September 9th. And then I will receive gifts." Does this mean I receive gifts on September 10th? No, it means that I will receive gifts at that time, meaning during the day of my birthday. This is the proper meaning, usage and context for the passage you quote very often. It is not describing a sequence, it is describing events that will occur during a specific time. There's a big difference.

How is THIS unclear to you? There is no "then" for you to mess around with and try to twist.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What did JESUS say happens "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS"?

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
How is THIS unclear to you? There is no "then" for you to mess around with and try to twist.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What did JESUS say happens "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS"?

right. Of course those signs appear. But these are not the verses that you are misusing.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 8, 2010

I agree with Jen. Jesus is talking about the great tribulation in Matthew 24 and saying when it happens and when it ends.

Zadok7000 · Sep 9, 2010

As the Lord told us, look to Daniel:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

the.Sheepdog · Sep 9, 2010

so far I like this thread!

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 9, 2010

the.Sheepdog said:
so far I like this thread!

I agree. Christ is the ultimate authority on eschatology.

LastSeven · Sep 10, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
How is THIS unclear to you? There is no "then" for you to mess around with and try to twist.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What did JESUS say happens "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS"?

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, heaven and earth will pass away.

Matthew 24:29-32
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

This is heaven and earth passing away

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Being gathered from the heavens? Luke says both heaven and earth. Isn't the rapture supposed to take us from earth to heaven? But scripture doesn't lie. The reason for the rapture is that heaven and earth are passing away and it's not safe to stay here or there. We'll be going to a new heaven and a new earth at that time.

If anybody wants to argue this point please use scripture to back up your argument.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation (when he says "generation" he means the human race) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Why else would he say here that heaven and earth will pass away? He was describing the last days. The great distress he warns us of is the time when Satan is loosed for a short time after the millennium and he leads people astray and leads them in a rebellion against Jesus.

This is why Daniel (Daniel 12:1-2) says "at that time" we will be delivered (from Satan's rebellion) and multitudes will be resurrected. It's the end of the world.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 10, 2010

LastSeven said:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days, heaven and earth will pass away.

Matthew 24:29-32
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

This is heaven and earth passing away

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Being gathered from the heavens? Luke says both heaven and earth. Isn't the rapture supposed to take us from earth to heaven? But scripture doesn't lie. The reason for the rapture is that heaven and earth are passing away and it's not safe to stay here or there. We'll be going to a new heaven and a new earth at that time.

If anybody wants to argue this point please use scripture to back up your argument.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation (when he says "generation" he means the human race) will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Why else would he say here that heaven and earth will pass away? He was describing the last days. The great distress he warns us of is the time when Satan is loosed for a short time after the millennium and he leads people astray and leads them in a rebellion against Jesus.

This is why Daniel (Daniel 12:1-2) says "at that time" we will be delivered (from Satan's rebellion) and multitudes will be resurrected. It's the end of the world.

Nope - not til the end of the millenium.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The sun darkening, moon darkening, and stars falling is found in seal #6 in Revelation 6 before the Day of the Lord begins.

Revelation 6:13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There is a resurrection of the good before the Day of the Lord, a resurrection of those who died as martyrs during the first 3 1/2 years of the Day of the Lord, and a resurrection of the good and the bad after the millenium.

LastSeven · Sep 11, 2010

Swordsmanoffaith said:
Nope - not til the end of the millenium.

Exactly! That's when all this will happen. The great distress, the resurrection, the rapture, judgment, heaven and earth passing away. It seems pretty clear.

LastSeven · Sep 11, 2010

Swordsmanoffaith said:
There is a resurrection of the good before the Day of the Lord, a resurrection of those who died as martyrs during the first 3 1/2 years of the Day of the Lord, and a resurrection of the good and the bad after the millenium.

Three resurrections? I agree with the last two you mention, but where is the Biblical reference to the first one you mention? I think the first one and the third one are the same.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 11, 2010

LastSeven said:
Three resurrections? I agree with the last two you mention, but where is the Biblical reference to the first one you mention? I think the first one and the third one are the same.

There is a resurrection, change, and catching away of the church before the Day of the Lord or Day of Wrath even begins - that is the first one.

LastSeven · Sep 11, 2010

Oh I see. Of course, if you believe the day of wrath occurs before the millennium then you have to indeed make room for a third resurrection.

If however, you believe the day of wrath occurs after the millennium then there is no need for a third resurrection because the two described in Revelation fit perfectly.

Furthermore, Revelation 20 clearly states that those who reign with Christ for a thousand years represent the first resurrection. How then can there be another resurrection prior to this?

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 11, 2010

LastSeven said:
Oh I see. Of course, if you believe the day of wrath occurs before the millennium then you have to indeed make room for a third resurrection.

If however, you believe the day of wrath occurs after the millennium then there is no need for a third resurrection because the two described in Revelation fit perfectly.

Your position is unbiblical. The Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath is the millenium.

There is a resurrection, change and removal of the church before the Day of the Lord.

There is a resurrection and removal of the two witnesses 3 1/2 years later.

There is a resurrection ONLY (not removal) of those who were beheaded for refusing the anti-christ about 75 days after the two witnesses.

There is a resurrection of both the just and unjust (not removal) after the millenium.

LastSeven · Sep 11, 2010

I see that you responded before I edited my last post to add:

Furthermore, Revelation 20 clearly states that those who reign with Christ for a thousand years represent the first resurrection. How then can there be another resurrection prior to this?

All of your arguments are based on interpretation. I am merely quoting scripture.

You say that the two witnesses are resurrected 3.5 years after the resurrection of the church? You have to admit that this is an assumption because it doesn't actually ever say that the church and the two witnesses are not one and the same. Matter of fact, there is evidence to suggest that they are the same, but that is another discussion altogether.

The point is Revelation 20 clearly states that the resurrection of the martyrs is the first resurrection, so for you to claim anything different is clearly unbiblical. There is no resurrection before the resurrection of the martyrs. That is what my Bible says. If your Bible says something different, burn it and buy a new one.

Don't you see? Your interpretation does not fit scripture. Have you ever considered that maybe your interpretation is wrong?

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 11, 2010

LastSeven said:
I see that you responded before I edited my last post to add:

All of your arguments are based on interpretation. I am merely quoting scripture.

You say that the two witnesses are resurrected 3.5 years after the resurrection of the church? You have to admit that this is an assumption because it doesn't actually ever say that the church and the two witnesses are not one and the same. Matter of fact, there is evidence to suggest that they are the same, but that is another discussion altogether.

The point is Revelation 20 clearly states that the resurrection of the martyrs is the first resurrection, so for you to claim anything different is clearly unbiblical. There is no resurrection before the resurrection of the martyrs. That is what my Bible says. If your Bible says something different, burn it and buy a new one.

Don't you see? Your interpretation does not fit scripture. Have you ever considered that maybe your interpretation is wrong?

What was Christ and those who came to life when He came out of the grave? Was He not part of the first resurrection?

For you to claim that the church is not resurrected, changed and removed before the Day of the Lord is clearly unbiblical.

You need to understand the first resurrection and the second death.

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