What about Baptism?

evolisamyth · Jan 8, 2003

Remember too that the conversation that Jesus and Nicodemus were having concerned "born again".

Nicodemus was wonder how can he go back to the womb.  Jesus makes it clear that he didn't have to.  That natural birth was already accomplished, the "born again" which he speeks of is in refrence to the new birth via the Holy Spirit baptism after one has repented and accepted.

Christ, because Nicodemus' question about returning to the womb, had to make the distinction between born of water (natural, womb-to-waaaaaaah! birth) and Spirit (supernatural woe-to-wellness birth).

cougan · Jan 8, 2003

Ben I have told you over and over again that water baptism and holy spirit baptism are 2 entirely different things, yet you keep makeing statements like I have never said that or that I deny that.

I want to deal with Rom 6 really quick. I want you to take note of what Thayer says about the word buried in verse 4.4916 sunqa,ptw sunthapto {soon-thap'-to} from 4862 and 2290; TDNT - 7:786,1102; v AV - bury with 2; 2 1) to bury together with For all who in the rite of believer's baptism are plunged into the water, thereby declare that they put faith in the expiatory death of Christ for the pardon of their past sins; therefore Paul likens baptism to a burial by which the former sinfulness is buried, i.e. utterly taken away.

There are only 2 instances of this greek word and they are found in

Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.and
Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Now I want you to pay close attention. Lets start in

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

This verse very clearly teaches us that when someone is immersed/baptized into Christ they are being immersed/baptized into Christ death. Then in verse 4 he is expounding on vrs 3 and is telling us that through this immersion/baptism we were buried with Jesus into death as also seen col 2:12. A person in buried in the watery grave of baptism. This is the perfect use of this word to show that when one water baptized that he is being buried with Jesus, dieing with him, and haveing your sins washed away acts 22:16, acts 2:38. The water is not magical and the water itself does not save you or do any of the things above, however it is at this point of obedience to the faith that God does these things. Just like Col 2:12 clearly states it is by our faith in the opereration of God that we know that when we obey his command and our water baptized that we are haveing our sins removed, are being united with Christ, and our dieing with him having our old man nailed to the cross. Again, it is by our faith that when we are raised up out of that watery grave of baptism that we can be confindent and assured that we have become a new creature and that we have been added to the body/church by God just like those on the day of Pentacost acts 2:41 and 47. It is by this water baptism that one is added to the the one church/body 1Cor 12:13. (I will show why this is water baptism in the verse and not HS baptism in another post). Now picture in your mind how being immersed in water and being raised up is exactly what is being described here in Rom 6. Now use logic here please. There were only 2 ways people were able to get the HS. First is when it came directly from heaven in the only 2accounts recorded 1. the day of Pentacost on the Apostles ONLY. 2. On Cornelius household.  The Second way a person got the HS was through the laying on of hands by the apostles ONLY.

Here the major delima you get yourself into. It doesnt matter if you are standing, sitting, or jumping the HS could be given to you. If this is HS baptism in Rom 6 as you try to portray there would be no reason to describe as someone being buried then raised up. Another problem you have is that if you are being immersed in the HS and then being raised up from this immersion you would be once again out of the HS. Again, water baptism fits perfect with what is being said here. You are immeresed in the water and then raised up from it.

One more finally nail to hammer in. Notice the following verses.

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

I want you to pay attention now. HS baptism was NEVER a command but a promise(lk 24:49) however water baptism was a command. Acts 2:38, Mat 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 10:48. Now we see in the above verses that they OBEYED the message that was given them and that this message they OBEYED included this baptism that is being talked about in Rom 6 because when they were baptized they were set free from sin vrs 7. Since they OBEYED the word and were baptized they were water baptized and not HS baptized. Now it just does'nt get any clearer than that my friends.

Alright lets make a few more logical points.

Philp in Acts 8: 13-14 preaches the good news to the Samarins and just like those 3000 in Acs 2 that accepted his word were water baptized. How do I know that they were Water baptized vrs 16 confirms that for us.

16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have Philip the evagelist full of the HS being guided by the HS he professes the word of God to these people and the accept it. Then he WATER BAPTIZES THEM then goes on his way leaving them in this condition. Now we either have to assume that they were saved and had their sins washed away with this water baptism that they received by Philip by the ispiration of the HS or we have to conclude that they were lost still in their sin but hey they were water baptized showing an outward sign for an inward change. I tell you what I think I will go with the choice that is clearly taught in the bible that these people were saved by receiving the word of God and obeying  it being baptized in water haveing their sins washed away.

I want you to not that they did not receive the HS UNTIL the APOSTLES LAID HANDS ON THEM. vrs 17. Even though Philip was full of the HS he did not have this ability because only the apostles did. Simon even tried to purchase this ability in verse 18 but of course it could not be purchased. With your view the only people that could be saved would be those that had an apostle lay their hands on them. Since theres not any apostles today I guess we are all lost.

Someone mentioned the event with the eunic and said see you have to have faith 1st before you are baptized. This is very true. If you dont have faith and you are water baptized you are just getting wet. I think I more that showed that our faith and our water baptism work together as pointed out in col 2:12. What I want you to notice about this account is that when Philip taught him the good news that the eunch sees some water and he wants to be baptized. What would be the hurry? Why this body of water instead of somewhere in town where his friends could see? You see logic prevails once again. The eunch was obviously taught that he must be water baptized in order to have his sins washed away. Since he accepted this message as soon as he saw some water he was ready and he asks Philip just to make sure there was'nt anything preventing him from being water baptized. The eunuch belives and confesses Jesus as the son and is baptized into Christ just like in Gal 3:27. I want you to note that it is not until after the eunuch is baptized that he rejoices vrs 39. No where does it state this eunuch receiving the HS just like the people in Samaria Philp leaves this man only being water baptized yet he rejoiced. Under your view the poor eunuch was just confused and thought he had something to rejoice about because he was still lost because he had just been water baptized. 

I have more I will cover latter I must get to bed for now. I hope this clear logic sinks in and helps you out.

Cougan

pinkangel · Jan 8, 2003

Cougan just woundering did u read my last post to you? Just woundering what your views were on what I said?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by evolisamyth
WATER used here refers to natural birth!!!!!!!!!

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Do a google search and see.  Do a bit of research for about an hour or so or longer on John 3:5 and you'll see this.

OR just go on to v6 where Jesus clarifies the statement in v5:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Continues to explaine in v7:

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Born once of WATER (FLESH) and the AGAIN...of the SPIRIT!!!!!!!!

Tadda!  It's NOT rocket science!  A verse taken out of context can mean just about anything.  But kept in context...as in context of the verses that precede and follow it, it means what it means.

Your position has some merit and cannot be dismissed out of hand.  The idea that Jesus refered to physical birth when he said "water" is a position which originates about the time of Zwingli.  Zwingli rejected all sacraments, even those of the Eucharist and Baptism, which Luther had accepted.  Luther, like all Christians from the first Century onward accepted that Jesus was referring to Baptism in that famous talk with Nikodemos. 

Since Zwingli, the universal understanding of Jesus words no longer exists as many hear "physical birth" when Jesus says "born of water." 

The weight of history is against your interpretation and the contextual support you give, while worthy of consideration is certainly NOT as decisive and clear as you seem to feel. 

Your position, like that of Zwingli, solves a problem that arises out of the "sola fede" mantra of the Reformation.  IF we are saved by faith and faith alone, then there is an obvious problem with baptism, which the Church historically form the Apostles to the Reformation regarded as necessary to entrance into God's Kingdom.  Luther really never solved the conflict but Zwingli did by tossing out even the Eucharist and Baptism as efficacious sacraments.

To toss these two out, he had to construct many forced interpretations of scripture.  The reading of "born of water" is the most meritorious of those forced readings but in the end, it is a reading determined by assumptions.  It is better to approach the scripture with the ability to question your assumptions than to try to find them in Jesus' words. 

Ben johnson · Jan 8, 2003

Christ, because Nicodemus' question about returning to the womb, had to make the distinction between born of water (natural, womb-to-waaaaaaah! birth) and Spirit (supernatural woe-to-wellness birth).

BRAVO!

Water, in Greek, is "HUDOR"---according to Strong's, ...as the fundamental element"; verse 5 is connected to verse 6, verse 6 repeats verse 5! Verse 5 says "born of WATER and the Spirit, verse 6 says "born of FLESH and the Spirit". But some people cannot be convinced, and STILL assert, "OH no! It means WATERBAPTISM! Waterbaptism doesn't even FIT in the conversation...

Ben I have told you over and over again that water baptism and holy spirit baptism are 2 entirely different things,

That's great, Cougan---you and I agree that "Holy Spirit baptism" and "waterbaptism" are two separate and distinct things (I rather think that Matt3:11 prevents any other conclusion). What I do NOT understand, is why it's so difficult to fully understand that HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM (which is salvation), is NOT water, but then reject the idea that JESUS-CHRIST-BAPTISM (which is salvation) is ALSO not water.

Why would "immersion in the Spirit" be belief only, but "immersion in Jesus" be belief PLUS water?

Now, you make the case that "sunthapto" must mean WATER, because it is BURIED. Well, what's the CONTEXT? "You were BURIED by BAPTISM---into DEATH!" Immersed into death. Christ was buried, we were BURIED WITH HIM. In the TOMB, Cougan, buried in the TOMB.

Verse 5 says "we were sumphutos (CONJOINED, UNITED) with Him in the LIKENESS of death"; verse 11, "Even so, consider yourselves DEAD TO SIN."

Why does it use "buried" here, Cougan? We are UNITED IN DEATH with Christ---He was buried, SO ARE WE. We are likewise UNITED IN RESURRECTION---He was raised, SO ARE WE. Paul uses BURIED, because Jesus was dead and buried. There are THREE WORDS here, the meaning of ALL THREE is IDENTICAL and INTERCHANGEABLE---IMMERSED (baptized), BURIED, UNITED.

...and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

"Immersed into the Spirit" has nothing to do with water, but it IS salvation.
"Immersed into Christ"---is BORN AGAIN, is UNITED WITH HIM (both DEATH and RESURRECTION)---immersed into Him, buried WITH Him, united in His death AND united in His resurrection---Immersed into Christ IS salvation--- and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

BTW, you and I agree that water itself does not "WASH AWAY SINS", but the blood of Jesus does. Thus in Acts 22:16, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on His name"---I intentionally left out the 2nd comma---the two events ("be baptized", "wash away your sins") both MODIFY the phrase, "calling on His name". It's the CALLING ON HIS NAME that washes away sins, not the WATER...

Immersed/buried/united-with-death (old sin nature dies, "consider yourselves dead to sin")---immersed/united-with-RESURRECTION (new nature born, "alive-to-God-in-Christ"). What's confusing about that?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson
BRAVO! Water, in Greek, is "HUDOR"---according to Strong's, ...as the fundamental element"; verse 5 is connected to verse 6, verse 6 repeats verse 5! Verse 5 says "born of WATER and the Spirit, verse 6 says "born of FLESH and the Spirit". But some people cannot be convinced, and STILL assert, "OH no! It means WATERBAPTISM! Waterbaptism doesn't even FIT in the conversation...
That's great, Cougan---you and I agree that "Holy Spirit baptism" and "waterbaptism" are two separate and distinct things (I rather think that Matt3:11 prevents any other conclusion). What I do NOT understand, is why it's so difficult to fully understand that HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM (which is salvation), is NOT water, but then reject the idea that JESUS-CHRIST-BAPTISM (which is salvation) is ALSO not water.

Why would "immersion in the Spirit" be belief only, but "immersion in Jesus" be belief PLUS water?

Now, you make the case that "sunthapto" must mean WATER, because it is BURIED. Well, what's the CONTEXT? "You were BURIED by BAPTISM---into DEATH!" Immersed into death. Christ was buried, we were BURIED WITH HIM. In the TOMB, Cougan, buried in the TOMB.

Verse 5 says "we were sumphutos (CONJOINED, UNITED) with Him in the LIKENESS of death"; verse 11, "Even so, consider yourselves DEAD TO SIN."

Why does it use "buried" here, Cougan? We are UNITED IN DEATH with Christ---He was buried, SO ARE WE. We are likewise UNITED IN RESURRECTION---He was raised, SO ARE WE. Paul uses BURIED, because Jesus was dead and buried. There are THREE WORDS here, the meaning of ALL THREE is IDENTICAL and INTERCHANGEABLE---IMMERSED (baptized), BURIED, UNITED.

...and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

"Immersed into the Spirit" has nothing to do with water, but it IS salvation.
"Immersed into Christ"---is BORN AGAIN, is UNITED WITH HIM (both DEATH and RESURRECTION)---immersed into Him, buried WITH Him, united in His death AND united in His resurrection---Immersed into Christ IS salvation--- and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

BTW, you and I agree that water itself does not "WASH AWAY SINS", but the blood of Jesus does. Thus in Acts 22:16, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on His name"---I intentionally left out the 2nd comma---the two events ("be baptized", "wash away your sins") both MODIFY the phrase, "calling on His name". It's the CALLING ON HIS NAME that washes away sins, not the WATER...

Immersed/buried/united-with-death (old sin nature dies, "consider yourselves dead to sin")---immersed/united-with-RESURRECTION (new nature born, "alive-to-God-in-Christ"). What's confusing about that?

If we follow this line of reason, we will soon edit every reference to water baptism out of the Bible.  One wonders why so much effort is being made to force water out of every obvious reference to water baptism.  The academic dishonsety required to accept these forced interpretation is made palatable by the support they lend to the Gospel according to Zwingli.

Ben johnson · Jan 8, 2003

Because it's not an "obvious reference to WATERBAPTISM".

You agree that salvation ENCOMPASSES "Baptism by the Holy Spirit".
You agree that salvation ENCOMPASSES "Bured with Christ".
You agree that HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM is not water/
You REJECT that "buried with Christ" is ALSO not water?

Tell me---which is SCRIPTURE, and which is MAN'S REASONING?

"Baptize" means to IMMERSE. In Matt3:11, it means "IMMERSE in WATER", and "IMMERSE in the HOLY SPIRIT". In Romans 6 it means "immersed into His DEATH". It says "BURIED", because it's "IMMERSED INTO DEATH---BURIED WITH CHRIST in the TOMB.

I submit, and very respectrully to all of you, I submit that you CLING to water here, because to do OTHERWISE would be to forsake the "DIPPED-OR-CONDEMEND" belief!

We were IMMERSED into Christ's death.
We were BURIED with Him in death.
We were UNITED with Him in the likeness of death.

We were IMMERSED/UNITED also in the likeness of His resurrection.

Why must this passage mean waterbaptism?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
I am moving this thread to the Spirituality Forum, because Staff has decided that members of this branch of CoC teach a different gospel, and they are not allowed to post in Christian Only areas of CF.

You might note the Catholic teaching is consistent with what you describe as CoC teaching.  I suppose you must move Catholics as well for promoting another gospel.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Because it's not an "obvious reference to WATERBAPTISM".

You agree that salvation ENCOMPASSES "Baptism by the Holy Spirit".
You agree that salvation ENCOMPASSES "Bured with Christ".
You agree that HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM is not water/
You REJECT that "buried with Christ" is ALSO not water?

Tell me---which is SCRIPTURE, and which is MAN'S REASONING?

"Baptize" means to IMMERSE. In Matt3:11, it means "IMMERSE in WATER", and "IMMERSE in the HOLY SPIRIT". In Romans 6 it means "immersed into His DEATH". It says "BURIED", because it's "IMMERSED INTO DEATH---BURIED WITH CHRIST in the TOMB.

I submit, and very respectrully to all of you, I submit that you CLING to water here, because to do OTHERWISE would be to forsake the "DIPPED-OR-CONDEMEND" belief!

We were IMMERSED into Christ's death.
We were BURIED with Him in death.
We were UNITED with Him in the likeness of death.

We were IMMERSED/UNITED also in the likeness of His resurrection.

Why must this passage mean waterbaptism?

I think you must be charaterizing someone else's position.  Haley's Bible Commentary is telling on this point.  It notes that in the first century, baptism was regarded as necessary for entrance into God's Kingdom but that it is no longer regarded as such today. 

evolisamyth · Jan 8, 2003

We are water baptized, not for salvation, but in obedience to God and following the example of Jesus.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us.  We are baptized in the Spirit when we get saved and are entered into the family of God.  Why then get water baptized if the first is enough?

It is because we are doing God's will in obedience as His children.  Christ Jesus was baptized in accordance to God's will.  It was his FIRST act of obedience to God the Father.  It should be OUR first act of obedience after receiving our salvation.  God's only begotten Son was baptized before he began performing his earthly mission.  We how are born into the family upon being saved, should, as obedient children, do the same as our example: Jesus Christ.

His earthly ministry didn't begin until he was baptized.  He didn't start TEACHING in the synagogues until AFTER that first act of obedience to the father.  Check the Gospels.

We are saved UNTO good works, not by them.  The first good work that we need to do is get baptized!  Remember that the saints will have their works judged at the judgment seat.  The works we did, the works we should have done...they will be tried in fire.  What isn't burnt away is counted to us for our rewards.

This is what Paul is talking about when he writes about running the race.  The goal is the reward...not salvation!  He's already got the latter.

We do not get rewarded with salvation.  If that were the case, then GRACE is not GRACE.  Salvation is given to whosoever will receive it!  Rewards on the other hand, are earned.

Illustration:  You want to run in a marathon so you ask for a number.  You get the number, you are in the race.  Wether you run it or not, you are on the roster and will not be removed!  What is the reward?  Not getting into the race, you've already been GIVEN that.  For some, the reward is finishing.  Others, beating their earlier times.  For yet others, it's a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place finish.  For a very sellect few, radio, TV, and magazine adds-fame and fortune.  You are in the race wether you run it or drop out half way.  If you don't run it, no reward.  If you drop out half way, no reward.  If you run the whole race and fail to meat the set goal, no reward.  But, if you run the race, and meat all the prerequisites to call it a success, reward.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by evolisamyth
We are saved UNTO good works, not by them.  The first good work that we need to do is get baptized!  Remember that the saints will have their works judged at the judgment seat.  The works we did, the works we should have done...they will be tried in fire.  What isn't burnt away is counted to us for our rewards.

James 2:21 We are not justified by faith alone.

In a compromise between Catholic and Protestant positions, the New Dehli Statement on unity from the World Council of Churches indicates that baptism is necessary for unity in the Church. Read on:

We believe that the unity which is both God's will and His gift to the Church is being made visible as ALL in each place WHO ARE BAPTIZED in to Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord and Saviour are brought by the Holy Spirit into ONE fully committed fellowship, holding to one apostolic faith, preaching the one Gospel, breaking the one bread, etc.

This statement indicates that the wieght of the future as well as that of the past are against attempts to reduce baptism to a mere act of obedience.

cougan · Jan 8, 2003

BRAVO!  Water, in Greek, is "HUDOR"---according to Strong's, ...as the fundamental element"; verse 5 is connected to verse 6, verse 6 repeats verse 5! Verse 5 says "born of WATER and the Spirit, verse 6 says "born of FLESH and the Spirit". But some people cannot be convinced, and STILL assert, "OH no! It means WATERBAPTISM! Waterbaptism doesn't even FIT in the conversation...

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to
you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of
God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he
is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb
and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless
one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is
born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound
of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

SONSHIP AND BAPTISM

    The Book of Galatians teaches that when we, by faith, put Christ on in baptism, we become children of God. It is in consequence of belief and baptism that we "receive the adoption of sons" (Gal. 4:5).

    Jesus said, "Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3); and, "Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).  The "water" in this passage must be the water of baptism inasmuch as no other water enters into God's great scheme of redemption.  To be "born of the Spirit" is for the inward man to be born.  Jesus said:

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.  The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:6-8).

    Jesus is not talking about mystery; he is talking about invisibility. He said, "Marvel not," and ever since he said it men have marveled about it.  Clearly, the Lord is saying that the birth from above is a birth of the spirit of man.  When one is born of water in the act of baptism (presupposed, of course, by faith), he is born of the spirit; that is, his spirit is regenerated.  To enjoy the spiritual birth of water is to become a child in the family of God. Jesus plainly declares that the spirit of man is born into the spiritual family of God when his faith is demonstrated in the water of baptism.

    The kingdom is the same as the church.  Jesus said in Matt. 16:18, "I will build my church," and in the very next verse he said, "And I will give unto thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven."  What the Son of God called "the church" in Matt. 16:18 he called "the kingdom of heaven" in Matt. 16:19.

    Paul wrote, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).  The "house of God" is the family of God; the family of God is the church of God.

    These terms are interchangeable.  "Kingdom," "church," "family" refer to the same divine institution.  When an alien sinner, in the exercise of faith, is baptized in water, he is twice born.  The second birth is a birth of the human spirit in water.  He is a member of God's family.  He is in the church or kingdom.

    To insist that the alien sinner can be saved before and without water baptism is to take the foolish position that a child can be in the family without being born into the family.  No mortal, who has departed from God, can be in the family (church, kingdom) without being born anew.  Jesus himself said, "Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    The body of Jesus is also referred to as the church.  "And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body ..."  (Eph. 1:22-23).  "And he is the head of the body, the church ..."  (Col. 1:18).  To be in the body of Christ is to be in the church of Christ; but to be in the church is to be in the kingdom or family.

    To say that one can be saved without being in the church is as absurd as saying that one can be born from above and not be in the family of God. All of the saved are children in the family of God. There are no saved outside of God's family.  It must follow, then, that all of the saved are in the church.  To be in the church is to be in the body.  All of the saved, therefore, are in the body.  The apostle teaches, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27).  To be in Christ is to be in his body, which is the church, which is the kingdom, which is the family.

 

cougan · Jan 9, 2003

That's great, Cougan---you and I agree that "Holy Spirit baptism" and "waterbaptism" are two separate and distinct things (I rather think that Matt3:11 prevents any other conclusion). What I do NOT understand, is why it's so difficult to fully understand that HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM (which is salvation), is NOT water, but then reject the idea that JESUS-CHRIST-BAPTISM (which is salvation) is ALSO not water.

Why would "immersion in the Spirit" be belief only, but "immersion in Jesus" be belief PLUS water?

Now, you make the case that "sunthapto" must mean WATER, because it is BURIED. Well, what's the CONTEXT? "You were BURIED by BAPTISM---into DEATH!" Immersed into death. Christ was buried, we were BURIED WITH HIM. In the TOMB, Cougan, buried in the TOMB.

Verse 5 says "we were sumphutos (CONJOINED, UNITED) with Him in the LIKENESS of death"; verse 11, "Even so, consider yourselves DEAD TO SIN."

Why does it use "buried" here, Cougan? We are UNITED IN DEATH with Christ---He was buried, SO ARE WE. We are likewise UNITED IN RESURRECTION---He was raised, SO ARE WE. Paul uses BURIED, because Jesus was dead and buried. There are THREE WORDS here, the meaning of ALL THREE is IDENTICAL and INTERCHANGEABLE---IMMERSED (baptized), BURIED, UNITED.

...and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

"Immersed into the Spirit" has nothing to do with water, but it IS salvation.
"Immersed into Christ"---is BORN AGAIN, is UNITED WITH HIM (both DEATH and RESURRECTION)---immersed into Him, buried WITH Him, united in His death AND united in His resurrection---Immersed into Christ IS salvation--- and it has absolutely nothing to do with water.

BTW, you and I agree that water itself does not "WASH AWAY SINS", but the blood of Jesus does. Thus in Acts 22:16, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on His name"---I intentionally left out the 2nd comma---the two events ("be baptized", "wash away your sins") both MODIFY the phrase, "calling on His name". It's the CALLING ON HIS NAME that washes away sins, not the WATER...

Immersed/buried/united-with-death (old sin nature dies, "consider yourselves dead to sin")---immersed/united-with-RESURRECTION (new nature born, "alive-to-God-in-Christ"). What's confusing about that?

HS baptism is not stated in the bible as being salvation that is does not say something like " you are saved by HS baptism" I made a number of rock solid arugements showing how one is saved by water baptism and that the HS was not given to people until the apostles laid their hands on them. You did not touch top side or bottom side of my arguements that  I made. YOu seem to be trying to say that IMERSION INTO CHRIST AND IMMERSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT are the SAME THING. Yet I showed you very clearly that in Acts 8 that the Samarians were baptized in water in the name of Jesus only. They did not receive the HS UNTIL the apostles came and layed hands on them. These are 2 distinct instances. First the Samaians were water baptized into Christ just like Rom 6, and Col 2:12-13 describe. They were saved at that point because their sins had been removed and they had been added to the church/kingdom. Event 2. When the apostels hear that Samaria has received the good news they go and lay hands on them so they can recieve the HS. The bible can not contridict itself and this is why when I show you such passages as this one and the others I pointed out in that post it clearly shows when you let the bible interpret itself those few passages you are hanging on to are clearly interpeted by the rest of the bible as being water baptism and not HS baptism. I challenge you to deal with these powerful points. Ask yourself these questions WITH YOUR VIEW IN MIND.

1. Why would Philip only water baptise these people then leave them lost? Again, since water baptism is suppose to be something you do after your saved showing that you are associating yourself with Jesus death burial and resurection why in the world was Philip water baptizing these lost people before they were HS baptized?

2. Why is all the accounts except in the case of Corneilius when someone got the word taught to them and they received they would be imeaditly be water baptized then they would receive the HS by the laying on of hands by the apostles after their baptism?

3. Hebrews 5:9 and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; Why does this verse say that salvation comes by OBEDIENCE yet HS baptism is a promise and CANNOT BE OBEY but, WATER BAPTISM IS A COMMAND and can be obeyed?

Please dont just answer these question answer the ones you didnt not touch in that post  I made. I showed in Rom 6 that they had OBEYED THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE which set them free from sin which includes water baptism.

 

 

cougan · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by evolisamyth
We are water baptized, not for salvation, but in obedience to God and following the example of Jesus.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us.  We are baptized in the Spirit when we get saved and are entered into the family of God.  Why then get water baptized if the first is enough?

It is because we are doing God's will in obedience as His children.  Christ Jesus was baptized in accordance to God's will.  It was his FIRST act of obedience to God the Father.  It should be OUR first act of obedience after receiving our salvation.  God's only begotten Son was baptized before he began performing his earthly mission.  We how are born into the family upon being saved, should, as obedient children, do the same as our example: Jesus Christ.

His earthly ministry didn't begin until he was baptized.  He didn't start TEACHING in the synagogues until AFTER that first act of obedience to the father.  Check the Gospels.

We are saved UNTO good works, not by them.  The first good work that we need to do is get baptized!  Remember that the saints will have their works judged at the judgment seat.  The works we did, the works we should have done...they will be tried in fire.  What isn't burnt away is counted to us for our rewards.

This is what Paul is talking about when he writes about running the race.  The goal is the reward...not salvation!  He's already got the latter.

We do not get rewarded with salvation.  If that were the case, then GRACE is not GRACE.  Salvation is given to whosoever will receive it!  Rewards on the other hand, are earned.

Illustration:  You want to run in a marathon so you ask for a number.  You get the number, you are in the race.  Wether you run it or not, you are on the roster and will not be removed!  What is the reward?  Not getting into the race, you've already been GIVEN that.  For some, the reward is finishing.  Others, beating their earlier times.  For yet others, it's a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place finish.  For a very sellect few, radio, TV, and magazine adds-fame and fortune.  You are in the race wether you run it or drop out half way.  If you don't run it, no reward.  If you drop out half way, no reward.  If you run the whole race and fail to meat the set goal, no reward.  But, if you run the race, and meat all the prerequisites to call it a success, reward.

Thanks for the response. Where I think you misunderstand is when it comes to works. There are 2 different kinds of works 1. Works of Merit. These kinds of works is where someone does something to earn it and is not the kind of works that Chrsitians does. 2 Works of obedience. These works are what a Christian is suppose to do. I think Jesus put it best in the following verses.

Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'?

8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'?

9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.

10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "

You see if we love God we will obey his word and be a doer of his word. John 14:15 James 1:22, Mat 7:21.

So again there are works involved in our salvation but they are not works of merit because no matter how much we worked we could never earn our salvation. Our works or works of obedience. Notice the following verse for 1 example.

Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

Now think about this.

Faith is a work.

John 6:28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

They wanted to know what they should do so they could work the works of God. Then Jesus tells them if want to do a work of God then belive in Jesus. Beliving in Jesus is a work it takes effort, however it takes no effort not to belive in him.

Repentence is a work.

We see in Luke 13:3, and acts 17:30 if we do not repent we will perish. So repentence is definatly part of salvation. Guess what it takes effort to repent that is to make the decision to turn away from your old way of doing things and to start serving God.

Confessing Jesus is a work.

Mat 10:32-33, and Rom 10: 9-10 We must confess Jesus before men and confessing him is part of your salvation. Again, it takes effort to confess so confessing is a work.

Baptism is a work.

What is interesting about this besides it taking effort to being dipped in water is that baptism is a work of God. Col 2:12. It is by our faith in the operation of God while we are being obedient to the faith by being immersed in water that God is doing the work of removing our sins by the blood of Jesus and adding us to the church.

 

Now it sounds like you are also advocating ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. If you are, this is far from the truth of the bible. Notice the example Jesus gives us to follow.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

We are to follow this example.

Rev 2:10...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Just because you accepted Christ and were saved today does not give a free pass into heaven. It depends on how you live your life. I could show you at least 100 different places where the bible warns christians over and over again about to watch out for false teaches and thoses that can pull you away from the truth and how you need to test yourself to make sure you not falling away. I will list a few below. I want you to think about what you are saying when you say cant fall from Grace. You are saying I could get my self saved have my ticket to heaven punched but I could sit around and do absoultly nothing for God after I am saved and still go to heaven. Or a year from now I could decide that I dont want to worship God anymore so I start a santanic cult but with you reasoning I would still get to go to heaven.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Hebrews 12:15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.

2Tim 4:

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

celtic_crusader · Jan 9, 2003

Hear is what Justin Martyr has to say about baptism;

he makes it pritty clear that jesus conversation with nicdemus was about being born again through the water baptisim.

Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127 Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above;128 he thus speaks: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."129
And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01...6.htm#TopOfPage

this is what John says and I recon this says it all, we need the blood and the water to be born again.

john says,"1 John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. "

FluviusNeckar · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by celtic_crusader
Hear is what Justin Martyr has to say about baptism;

he makes it pritty clear that jesus conversation with nicdemus was about being born again through the water baptisim.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01...6.htm#TopOfPage

this is what John says and I recon this says it all, we need the blood and the water to be born again.

I find it insightful that the board monitors have labelled the position which you and Justin Martyr espouse as "another Gospel." Eusebius is equally clear on this point and concurs with you and Justin Martyr.

If Jesus were indeed speaking of physical birth when he said, "born of water" surely someone, Paul, Peter, or even an angel from Heaven, would have thought so PRIOR to the Reformation. Let's be clear---all of the great reformers understood "born of water" as water baptism.

These innovative interpretations of Scripture reflect the same sort of result-determined methodology which has energized the judicial activism of the Courts to invent readings of the Constitution which are foreign to that document's historical and original intent. The same methodology which discovered the "right" to abortion in the Constitution has easily discovered in the Bible what sloppy scholarship wants to find there.

Vatican II reaffirmed the necessity of water baptism for entrance into God's Kingdom and required that adult baptism in water become normative (common practice and no longer the exception.) The New Dehli declaration of the World Council of Churches has stated that water baptism is necessary for Christian unity in the Church. Even the Promise Keepers movement has made it a central tenet of their work that new Christians be baptized immediately or as soon as possible to conform with the biblical examples of conversion. Yet these positions are ostensibly "another Gospel." Go figure.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson
No, I think it is BELIEF that puts us into Christ.

Rom6:4 says, "we have been buried with Him through immersion into death", meaning that our old selves DIED. "...in order that as Christ was raised from the dead, so too shall WE walk in newness of life!" Here then is a beautiful description of being BORN AGAIN!

There are SEVERAL "baptisms", or "immersions" mentioned in Scripture, I understand Rom6 to mean, "immersion-into-CHRIST". (Same with Gal3:27)

If it was WATER BAPTISM that actually puts us INTO CHRIST, why do passages like, "If you BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that God raised Him from the dead, and confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, YOU WILL BE SAVED"; and, "But as many as RECEIVE JESUS, to THEM He gave the right to children of God, even to those who believe in His name"; and, "For God so love the World, ...that whosoever BELIEVES should not perish but have eternal life"; and, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life..."; and, "This is the WILL (thelema-desire) of God, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up the last day"-----why do ALL THESE VERSES, and so many others just like them conspicuously NOT include the idea, of "WATER-BAPTISM"? Tell me the truth---if the writers had believed that "WB" was PART of salvation, do you really think they would have IGNORED it? Mark 16 says, "He who does NOT believe is condemned"---why does it not say, "he who does not believe AND IS NOT DIPPED is condemned"?
Rm10:9, Jn1:12, Jn3:16, Jn3:36, Jn6:40

Again, I think our being IN CHRIST, is through belief---not water.

There still is that passage in Acts 10:44-48, where they BELIEVED, they had been BAPTIZED/IMMERSED into Christ, were BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, but they had not yet been water-baptized!

In the same consideration, 1Co 12:13; Eph 4:4 are not referencing water either---but, rather, "we are IMMERSED BY THE SPIRIT into one body" (immersed by the Spirit? And not by water? Yup!), and "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"---it is the immersion into Christ---which occurs through BELIEF, not through WATER...

Show me a verse, one verse, that says, "He who is not water-baptized is not saved". And if you cannot, please tell me if it is logical to believe that something so CRITICAL to salvation (as those who equate "dipping" to "salvation"), was overlooked by all? Does that make sense?

It seems, Scripturally, that salvation is BY BELIEF---and the BELIEVER, then wants to be water-baptized. Dipping is the consequence, not the cause.

...part of "HAVING-BEEN-SAVED", rather than "part of salvation"...

You know, Mr. Johnson, Cougan certainly made it clear that he believes salvation is by faith. The dispute here has energized many Protestant vs. Catholic debates at the World Council of Churches. Do you think that forum would have labelled the Catholic position as another Gospel?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 9, 2003

Originally posted by evolisamyth
We are water baptized, not for salvation, but in obedience to God and following the example of Jesus.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us.  We are baptized in the Spirit when we get saved and are entered into the family of God.  Why then get water baptized if the first is enough?

It is because we are doing God's will in obedience as His children.  Christ Jesus was baptized in accordance to God's will.  It was his FIRST act of obedience to God the Father.  It should be OUR first act of obedience after receiving our salvation.  God's only begotten Son was baptized before he began performing his earthly mission.  We how are born into the family upon being saved, should, as obedient children, do the same as our example: Jesus Christ.

His earthly ministry didn't begin until he was baptized.  He didn't start TEACHING in the synagogues until AFTER that first act of obedience to the father.  Check the Gospels.

We are saved UNTO good works, not by them.  The first good work that we need to do is get baptized!  Remember that the saints will have their works judged at the judgment seat.  The works we did, the works we should have done...they will be tried in fire.  What isn't burnt away is counted to us for our rewards.

This is what Paul is talking about when he writes about running the race.  The goal is the reward...not salvation!  He's already got the latter.

We do not get rewarded with salvation.  If that were the case, then GRACE is not GRACE.  Salvation is given to whosoever will receive it!  Rewards on the other hand, are earned.

Illustration:  You want to run in a marathon so you ask for a number.  You get the number, you are in the race.  Wether you run it or not, you are on the roster and will not be removed!  What is the reward?  Not getting into the race, you've already been GIVEN that.  For some, the reward is finishing.  Others, beating their earlier times.  For yet others, it's a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place finish.  For a very sellect few, radio, TV, and magazine adds-fame and fortune.  You are in the race wether you run it or drop out half way.  If you don't run it, no reward.  If you drop out half way, no reward.  If you run the whole race and fail to meat the set goal, no reward.  But, if you run the race, and meat all the prerequisites to call it a success, reward.

You concede that baptism is necessary for obedience. Would you also concede, as the World Council of Churches did, that baptism is necessary for unity in the Church?

Ben johnson · Jan 9, 2003

If Jesus were indeed speaking of physical birth when he said, "born of water" surely someone, Paul, Peter, or even an angel from Heaven, would have thought so PRIOR to the Reformation. Let's be clear---all of the great reformers understood "born of water" as water baptism.

Nonsense. (Respectfully nonsense?

) Paul very clearly understood that "water" was part of being SAVED---not part of SALVATION. I'm certain Paul was aware of Cornelius and family, who were filled with the Spirit and spoke with tongues---prior to being "dipped". Cougan would have us believe that the HOLY SPIRIT FILLING preceded their salvation. Contradicting the text, focusing on the words "I had just BEGUN speaking when the Spirit fell on them", contradicting the account of all that Peter said JUST BEFORE they began tonguing/exalting (if Peter had only BEGUN saying the WHOLE SPEECH, then WHEN do ya' s'pose he got the REST of the speech UTTERED?)

The fact remains, Peter said: "God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also AFTER BELIEVING in the Lord Jesus Christ". Peter believed, received the Holy Spirit. Cornelius' family/friends believed, received the Holy Spirit (Acts11:17). They were saved. And THEN they were waterbaptized.

It doesn't matter what this or that one believed in the early church---we have the exact same information as they did---have we walked with Christ and talked with the Disciples? Neither did they! We have the WORD. And the structure is clear:

"Unless one is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
"How can a man be born TWICE? Can he enter his mother's womb again?"
"Truly, unless one is born of water AND the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Nick asked about being born TWICE. Jesus said, "you must be born of the FLESH (the FIRST birth), and you must be born of the Spirit ( the SECOND birth). Jesus is speaking comparitively of two births---flesh, and Spirit. If "WATER" was "WATERBAPTISM", then it is no longer comparison, it is THE SAME.

"WATERBAPTISM" (if that's what He MEANT) would be inseparable from "SPRITUAL BIRTH"---and thus NO COMPARISON. Yet, contextually, verses 5 and 6 are CONNECTED: "unless one is born of water and the Spirit; that which is born of flesh, that which is born of Spirit.

Verse 6 is not a NEW AND DIFFERENT CONCEPT, which it WOULD BE if "water" was "baptism". Nick said, "born twice?" Jesus said, "water and Spirit, flesh and Spirit". Jesus was ANSWERING Nick's question about TWO BIRTHS---which makes sense here: waterbaptism and Spirit, flesh and Spirit, or, flesh and Spirit, flesh and Spirit?

"HUDOR"---water
1) water
1a) of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools
1b) of the water of the deluge
1c) of water in any of the earth's repositories
1d) of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted
1e) of the waves of the sea
1f) fig. used of many peoples

"Born of water", is "born of the Earth". If He had MEANT baptism, then why did He not SAY baptism? It is irrelevant what this one or that one said, we have the TEXT. It does NOT say waterbaptism, it says "HUDOR". Verses 5-6 say water/flesh, Spirit/spirit. They do NOT say water-Spirit/Spirit, flesh.

Nick said, "How can a man enter his mother's womb and be born a second time?" Jesus said, "You gotta be WATERBAPTIZED and SPIRIT-BORN"---come now, that doesn't even make sense. Jesus said, "You gotta be EARTHLY born (water/HUDOR), AND born of the Spirit; that which is born of flesh is flesh, that born of Spirit is spirit. You don't see the wind and yet you know it's there, SO ARE THOSE BORN OF THE SPIRIT!"

You know, Mr. Johnson, Cougan certainly made it clear that he believes salvation is by faith.

I'm afraid he does NOT. Cougan believes "salvation is by faith, AND waterbaptism". Cougan asserts that it is the ACT of beng waterbaptized that achieves salvation---it is the WATER ITSELF that accomplishes the "remission of sins", the "burying with Christ", the "washing away and repentance of sins". Scripture after Scripture have demonstrated that it is the NAME OF JESUS that does the washing, not the WATER. Cougan asserts that Cornelius' family/friends were filled with the Spirit, BEFORE believing/salvation---Peter clearly disputes that in Acts11:17. They were SAVED---doesn't matter how distateful you find the verse, we cannot change what Peter said.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 9, 2003

Cougan believes "salvation is by faith, AND waterbaptism". Cougan asserts that it is the ACT of beng waterbaptized that achieves salvation---it is the WATER ITSELF that accomplishes the "remission of sins", the "burying with Christ", the "washing away and repentance of sins". Scripture after Scripture have demonstrated that it is the NAME OF JESUS that does the washing, not the WATER. Cougan asserts that Cornelius' family/friends were filled with the Spirit, BEFORE believing/salvation---Peter clearly disputes that in Acts11:17. They were SAVED---doesn't matter how distateful you find the verse, we cannot change what Peter said. [/B]

I have to run and so let me just note at this point that you still have not understood Cougan's position.  You are listening through the noise of your set of assumptions.  You still have not understood Cougan or me for that matter. 

What about Baptism?

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