Creationism: Young Earth vs Old Earth

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
You're right. If my comments have made you look foolish, you have every right not to make a bigger fool of yourself. 

That is against the rules of the forum. People are not on trial here. This is a place to discuss thoughts and ideas. But because my thoughts, ideas or beliefs are different then yours that does not justify you breaking the rules to make a personal attack against me.

Christians and non christians need to find a way to get along. Esp. in the work place. I have seen people come to these forums to work out their difference of opinions with Christians, because they do not want to ruin their working relationship with Christians they work with.

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by celtic_crusader
I said the flood was earlier than civilisation

The flood took place somewhere around 4300 years ago. That would be around 2300 bc. Is that the date your going to use for the "dawn of civilization"?

LiveFreeOrDie · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
As a Christian I hate to see other Christians make fools of themselves by stating things as facts that are obviously false just to suport their interpretation of the Bible. It does nothing but drive others further away from Christianity.

If you are so unwilling to admit error on such a simple little thing why should anyone believe that you have even bothered to check the rest of your "facts"? You are setting yourself up and thus the rest of us Christians here to be labled as liars because your pride will not let you even admit so a simple misstatement.

I've been thinking almost the same thing for weeks now. Kudos to you for stating it so clearly and succinctly.

LiveFreeOrDie · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
That is against the rules of the forum. People are not on trial here. This is a place to discuss thoughts and ideas. But because my thoughts, ideas or beliefs are different then yours that does not justify you breaking the rules to make a personal attack against me.

Tip #1: People who don't want their ideas to be laughed at shouldn't have such silly ideas.

Christians and non christians need to find a way to get along. Esp. in the work place. I have seen people come to these forums to work out their difference of opinions with Christians, because they do not want to ruin their working relationship with Christians they work with.

Tip #2: One of the best ways to get along with people is to admit when you've made a mistake.

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
As a Christian 

You call yourself a Christian? You say that God is a myth and you call yourself a Christian?

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie
Tip #1: People who don't want their ideas to be laughed at shouldn't have such silly ideas. 

Proverbs 1:24-26
    Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; [25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

 

LiveFreeOrDie · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
Proverbs 1:24-26
    Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; [25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: [26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

 

What on Earth is so difficult, John, about admitting your mistake? Why do you refuse to make a simple statement like: "My claim that most everything in the universe doubles in half the time was incorrect and not based in fact. I retract that claim and any arguments derived from it."

What's with the Bible quotes? Does that some how atone for your mistake? Is it OK to make false claims as long as you throw out a few Bible quotes afterwards?

LewisWildermuth · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
You call yourself a Christian? You say that God is a myth and you call yourself a Christian?

Now when did I say God was a myth?

blasteddead · Jan 8, 2003

I have always wondered why some christians would rather post quotes from the bible than to have a real debate.

Doctrine1st · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Doctrine1st
So if the flood occured in 2300 BCE, and the Tower of Babel occured several hundred years later, then I guess someone needs to explain to those archealogists who have found Chinese cultures as old as 5000-8000 BCE, that they were in reality Hebrew cultures or Chinese who spoke Hebrew at the time.

No response to this?

Are these archealogists full of hot air and they would be better off panning for change at the beach, or were these ancient Chinese folks truly speaking Hebrew, being that the languages changed after the Tower of Babel some 6000 years later?

celtic_crusader · Jan 8, 2003

but if you believe in the flood, then why place it before civilization. Scripture teaches it resulted from God punishing the wickedness of humanity on earth.

Micaiah, I dont believe in the flood of Noah but I know what the bible and history says. The reason it has to be before civilization is because if it were after, there would be no civilization??? It would have to start again wouldnt it

so, if the flood was after civilization then that would have wiped civilization out. So, it would have to have started again.

The civilization I am referring to hear was the start of our civilization in Sumer. How could the flood be after that???? Sumer was around 6000 yrs ago and then you have to give time for Noah and his sons to repopulate. That would have taken longer than Adam and eve considering there age had dropped from 1000 to 120 yrs.

Also, according to Hebrew myth, it wasnt actually mans fault that the flood came but rather they believed that angels came and slept with women and from them came half breeds and they destroyed man and the earth until other angels came and through Enoch they went to war with the fallen angels and so the story goes. In the end there was a flood.

Have you read the books of Enoch written by the Jews around 200 bc and quoted in the new testament as scripture By Jude.??

celtic_crusader · Jan 8, 2003

The flood took place somewhere around 4300 years ago. That would be around 2300 bc. Is that the date your going to use for the "dawn of civilization"?

Are you a qualified historian John because I gotta say mate, you are wrong hear.

The Sumarians were writing in 3200 BC so how can you put a flood after that, that destroys the world.

I am a historian and my concentration is from Mesopotamian history (the beginnings of civilization) to medieval history and some of the stuff your saying is plain wrong mate, sorry, no offence.

Please, if you are going to make way over the left statements, how about some evidence to go with it mate?????????????

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by celtic_crusader
Are you a qualified historian John because I gotta say mate, you are wrong hear.

I ran the genologys in the Bible myself. The flood was right around 4300 years ago or 2300 bc. Everyone else comes up with the same date. If your a historian then you should know that.

The Sumarians were writing in 3200 BC so how can you put a flood after that, that destroys the world.

Click to expand...

Only if it was a world wide flood. We know the country or the land that Noah was living in was destroyed. I do not know if the Sumarians or the Chaldeans were destoryed or not. Abraham was about 10 generations from Noah.

I am a historian and my concentration is from Mesopotamian history (the beginnings of civilization) to medieval history and some of the stuff your saying is plain wrong mate, sorry, no offence.

Click to expand...

Abraham was a Chaldean from the Mesopotamian City of Ur. He was born right around the year 2000 bc.

Please, if you are going to make way over the left statements, how about some evidence to go with it mate?????????????

Click to expand...

I do not know what your talking about that is wrong, but here is a link for a Bible time line. Like I said I did the genologys on it myself from Adam all the way up to Abraham.

http://www.wordsight.org/btl/000_btl-fp.htm

JohnR7 · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Doctrine1st
archealogists who have found Chinese cultures as old as 5000-8000 BCEAre these archealogists full of hot air and they would be better off panning for change at the beach, or were these ancient Chinese folks truly speaking Hebrew, being that the languages changed after the Tower of Babel some 6000 years later?

They could have gone to China before the flood and before the Tower of Babel. But if your trying to use a date of 5000 to 8000 BC, then that would be in error. Adam was formed right around 4000 bc and there was no civilization before Adam. All you had was stone age men.

Now I know that Archology likes to say there was a transition period from 10,000 bc to 6,000 bc before the dawn of "civilization". But there is nothing in the Bible to suggest any sort of transition period like that at all.

Evolutionists want us to believe that stone age man evolved into a civilized man, and that wild animals evolved into domesticed animals. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

It could be that a decendant of Adam went to China soon after 4000 bc and had a influence on the people who were living there at the time. That is something we could consider. That is the question in Europe. Did civilization enter into Europe because a new group of people came along to replace the ones where were there before. Or because a few people came along with a new way of life that effected the population that was already there at the time, to cause them to be civilized. Remember a part of being civilized was that domesticated animals, plants and birds had come into being. It was more than just Adam being more advanced than the stone Age men were.

There is story after story in the Bible where the nations around Isreal were having a bad influence on God's "chosen people". God kept trying to tell them, that they were suppose to be having a positive influence on the other nations. The nations around them were not suppose to be having a negitive influence on them.

sulphur · Jan 8, 2003

Doctrine1st · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
They could have gone to China before the flood and before the Tower of Babel. But if your trying to use a date of 5000 to 8000 BC, then that would be in error. Adam was formed right around 4000 bc and there was no civilization before Adam. All you had was stone age men.

Now I know that Archology likes to say there was a transition period from 10,000 bc to 6,000 bc before the dawn of "civilization". But there is nothing in the Bible to suggest any sort of transition period like that at all.

Evolutionists want us to believe that stone age man evolved into a civilized man, and that wild animals evolved into domesticed animals. But that is not what the Bible teaches.

It could be that a decendant of Adam went to China soon after 4000 bc and had a influence on the people who were living there at the time. That is something we could consider. That is the question in Europe. Did civilization enter into Europe because a new group of people came along to replace the ones where were there before. Or because a few people came along with a new way of life that effected the population that was already there at the time, to cause them to be civilized. Remember a part of being civilized was that domesticated animals, plants and birds had come into being. It was more than just Adam being more advanced than the stone Age men were.

There is story after story in the Bible where the nations around Isreal were having a bad influence on God's "chosen people". God kept trying to tell them, that they were suppose to be having a positive influence on the other nations. The nations around them were not suppose to be having a negitive influence on them.

Good grief, well, I guess I asked for it.

Thanks JohnR7, your pulitzer prize on history is in the mail.

sulphur · Jan 8, 2003

JohnR7 could I have summary of geneologies so I could show them to a jesuit friend of mine. THANKS

Micaiah · Jan 9, 2003

JohnR7,
A further reason to confirm man spoken of in Genesis 1 and 2 is Adam can be seen in the statement that God completed Creation on day 6, and rested on day 7. Your interpretation denies this truth since God would need to continue his creative work and form Adam from the ground on day 8.

By the way, when God completed each phase of creation, and at the end of day 6, Scripture records that 'God saw that it was good'. Your theory on primitive man with the implied death and sin contradicts this clear Scripture.

sulphur · Jan 9, 2003

We are talking old v new earth.The above posting is irrelevant

Curiosity Unleashed · Jan 9, 2003

John, what an interesting thread. At first I was shocked that you would rather take Genesis as your soul evidence for history but then I noticed you didnt even seem to be following that??

I am confused, you have made out that every single word of genesis is infallible but then you seem to totally contradict it on the simplest parts???

This is what you said???

Only if it was a worldwide flood. We know the country or the land that Noah was living in was destroyed. I do not know if the Sumerians or the Chileans were destroyed or not.

But genesis says;

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repented me that I have made them.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

I dont understand Mate; did I miss something because this tells me that god repented of making man not just a few men around the Mesopotamian??

How do you figure that only a small area was flooded?? You appear to have gone from an infallible bible stand to a flexible anything goes stand hear???

Whats the story mate

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