Who did away with the law? (2)

squint · Aug 27, 2010

VictorC said:
Did you think I wouldn't notice another switch-and-bait tactic you employed to avoid answering a direct question?

Your claim was that the Law is for ONLY the unregenerate. I say that believers still sin, sin is lawlessness and the LAW is against ALL lawlessness in whomever it is found and NOT 'excused' or granted under GRACE.

And, you're doing the same thing here - with no regard for the topic that several have tried to engage you on.

Argumentum ad populous/numerum doesn't work either.

Authorizing sin, evil, and lawlessness is a contribution that no one other than you has introduced. When you rejected the basic tenet of the Gospel found in God's redemption, your credibility became damaged by your own actions.

I do not condone any evil sinning lawless in myself under Grace either. Sorry.

After 90 posts added to the thread, you have still determined Arbiter01 and myself to be liars,

You having different reflections is one thing. Saying I called you liars doesn't exist. Nice try though.

and then added the apostle Paul to your list. When Scripture no longer is accepted as an authority to you, the endorsements you offered are no longer desired.

Assertions without factual attendants are just that.

And no, I don't see Paul authorizing his own indwelling sin or evil present's actions under Grace either. Do you?

s

VictorC · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
Your claim was that the Law is for ONLY the unregenerate. I say that believers still sin, sin is lawlessness and the LAW is against ALL lawlessness in whomever it is found and NOT 'excused' or granted under GRACE.

That is a notion you invented when several showed you that Romans 2:11-12 addresses the Jew and Gentile's condition before God during the law's tenure, to prepare the reader to the solution presented in the next chapter.

squint said:
Argumentum ad populous/numerum doesn't work either.

Neither do a number of logical fallacies you engage in.

squint said:
I do not condone any evil sinning lawless in myself under Grace either. Sorry.

But your intent is to deny the reason that God delivered us from the law that condemns all universally. Every time you're asked about this, you switch to this other topic of condoning sin that no one is even asking you about.

squint said:
You having different reflections is one thing. Saying I called you liars doesn't exist. Nice try though.

You didn't call us liars (a violation of the rules here), but regarded every critique that was presented to be a lie none the less. From one post you have never attempted to respond to what two of us have tried to show you.

squint said:
Assertions without factual attendants are just that.

And no, I don't see Paul authorizing his own indwelling sin or evil present's actions under Grace either. Do you?

No one cares about your pet topic of condoning sin, and no one other than you is addressing that topic. You switch-and-baited again to avoid responding to direct questions showing the solution God provided in His Son, propitiation to complete the law's thirst for blood, and adoption as His children in redemption from the former ownership of the law.

squint · Aug 27, 2010

VictorC said:
That is a notion you invented when several showed you that Romans 2:11-12 addresses the Jew and Gentile's condition before God during the law's tenure, to prepare the reader to the solution presented in the next chapter.

Victor, neither Law or Grace condones sin. That's all there is to this matter regardless of the 'prep.'

The Law works against the power of sin regardless of the state of belief. So does Grace.

Neither do a number of logical fallacies you engage in.

Facts please. Assertions without facts are only that.

But your intent is to deny the reason that God delivered us from the law that condemns all universally.

There is no sin, evil or lawlessness condoned by or authorized to be OKEY DOKEY under Grace. Sorry, that didn't happen.

Every time you're asked about this, you switch to this other topic of condoning sin that no one is even asking you about.

You are welcome to make a case that you no longer have sin or that same is OKEY DOKEY under Grace.

You didn't call us liars (a violation of the rules here), but regarded every critique that was presented to be a lie none the less.

Oh please. A counter critiqe or counter observation is NO MORE THAN THAT.

From one post you have never attempted to respond to what two of us have tried to show you.

Which is WHAT? I have repeatedly stated that sins will remain counted against the powers of evil and indwelling sin, which same are easily linked to the DEVIL.

No one cares about your pet topic of condoning sin,

And you both are welcome to deny you have any under Grace.

and no one other than you is addressing that topic. You switch-and-baited again to avoid responding to direct questions showing the solution God provided in His Son, propitiation to complete the law's thirst for blood, and adoption as His children in redemption from the former ownership of the law.

I don't doubt that working whatsoever for the believer. That still has zero to do with either Law or Grace authorizing sin or believers NOT having any under Grace and not being under LAW.

In addition for the unresponsive posts VictorC

The Law is presented by Paul to be:

A. Holy
B. Just
C. Good
D. Spiritual
E. Good if USED properly

Now tell me again why it is that believers discard the LAW?

?

VictorC · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
Victor, neither Law or Grace condones sin. That's all there is to this matter regardless of the 'prep.'

The Law works against the power of sin regardless of the state of belief. So does Grace.

It isn't possible to get past the first point you wrote, as you demonstrated again your tactic of switch-and-bait. This topic is not the accusation of condoning sin that you're obsessed with, but rather our redemption from the law "that you may be married to anotherto Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God".

If it is possible to focus your thoughts on one subject, you would find this conversation actually leading somewhere. Such a simple task eludes you, and you aren't helping discussion when you can't respond to what a post addresses you with. You only misrepresent both Scripture and what others have written.

Deut 5:29 · Aug 27, 2010

VictorC said:
I mentioned the law where they were compliant, and you are not. You don't keep the law that God ordained, and the only remaining claim is for a perversion that isn't compliant.

Oh please, if they had been compliant Jesus would not have had a problem with the way they "kept it". Jesus never told anyone not to keep God's Laws, but He did teach them how to keep them.
Jesus never had a problem with anyone keeping God's Law properly.
You are becoming a caricature on this forum.

VictorC · Aug 27, 2010

Deut 5:29 said:
Oh please, if they had been compliant Jesus would not have had a problem with the way they "kept it". Jesus never told anyone not to keep God's Laws, but He did teach them how to keep them.
Jesus never had a problem with anyone keeping God's Law properly.
You are becoming a caricature on this forum.

Are you making the burnt offerings mandated at Sinai for the oblations, keeping the sabbath holy, and celebrating the new moons?

squint · Aug 27, 2010

VictorC said:
It isn't possible to get past the first point you wrote, as you demonstrated again your tactic of switch-and-bait. This topic is not the accusation of condoning sin that you're obsessed with, but rather our redemption from the law "that you may be married to anotherto Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God".

You repeatedly miss the point. The devil is linked to every sin. Grace and Law did, has and will CONTINUE to condemn the works of the devil in WHOMEVER they are found and ultimately destroy the DEVIL for same. Neither redemption nor Grace nor LAW will avail for devils. That working can be held FULLY liable in all of these matters and BELIEVERS will not have it held to their charge.

And no, you are NOT redeemed under the LAW's determination of still having SIN. It's STILL there and STILL working unless you want to make a claim of sinless perfection in flesh and mind OR authorize the sin under Grace.

If it is possible to focus your thoughts on one subject, you would find this conversation actually leading somewhere. Such a simple task eludes you, and you aren't helping discussion when you can't respond to what a post addresses you with. You only misrepresent both Scripture and what others have written.

And your ALTERNATIVE claim is WHAT---> in relation to SIN action in the BELIEVER. By all means say ON.

???

And certainly do NOT look at the facts of the LAW being HOLY, JUST, GOOD, SPIRITUAL and GOOD IF USED PROPERLY. Those MUST be slung out the window eh?

And let us not look at ALL that Paul made himself as UNDER THE LAW or SERVED the Law in his mind.

s

VictorC · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
You repeatedly miss the point. The devil is linked to every sin. Grace and Law did, has and will CONTINUE to condemn the works of the devil in WHOMEVER they are found and ultimately destroy the DEVIL for same. Neither redemption nor Grace nor LAW will avail for devils. That working can be held FULLY liable in all of these matters and BELIEVERS will not have it held to their charge.

And no, you are NOT redeemed under the LAW's determination of still having SIN. It's STILL there and STILL working unless you want to make a claim of sinless perfection in flesh and mind OR authorize the sin under Grace.

You have a long way before you can make your statements consistent with what Scripture declares:

Romans 7:6 - now we are delivered from the law
Romans 10:4 - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth
2 Corinthians 3:7-13 - the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones...the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished
Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances
Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
1 Timothy 1:9 - the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners
Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law
Galatians 4:4-5 - God sent forth his Son...To redeem them that were under the law
Hebrews 7:18-19 - For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God
Hebrews 8:13 - In that He says, A new covenant, He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away
Hebrews 10:9 - then He said, Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God. He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

We have been redeemed from the law that held the adopted children of Israel in the past tense, and granted the promise to Abraham that was denied during the law's tenure.

squint said:
And your ALTERNATIVE claim is WHAT---> in relation to SIN action in the BELIEVER. By all means say ON.

???

This is another red herring that is introduced by you as a response to avoid acknowledging the Gospel.

squint said:
And certainly do NOT look at the facts of the LAW being HOLY, JUST, GOOD, SPIRITUAL and GOOD IF USED PROPERLY. Those MUST be slung out the window eh?

The red is an unBiblical addition you made to Romans 7 that wasn't written by the author.
Claiming that man "slung" the first covenant out the window is incognizant of Hebrews 10:9 stating that it was Jesus Christ who took it away - not man.

squint said:
And let us not look at ALL that Paul made himself as UNDER THE LAW or SERVED the Law in his mind.

He served another law of sin in the flesh, and the law mediated by Moses demanded compliance in the flesh - not the mind. Jesus added the entole showing the mind is capable of sin even without the flesh, showing everyone their need for redemption for transgressions everyone was guilty of. Did you forget that Paul declared of himself "I am carnal, sold under sin" in Romans 7:14? God's solution is found only in His redemption, the means He provided "through which we draw near to God".

squint · Aug 27, 2010

VictorC said:
You have a long way before you can make your statements consistent with what Scripture declares:

Romans 7:6 - now we are delivered from the law

Romans 10:4 - Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

2 Corinthians 3:7-13 - the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones...the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished

Ephesians 2:15 - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances

Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

1 Timothy 1:9 - the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners

Galatians 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law

Galatians 4:4-5 - God sent forth his Son...To redeem them that were under the law

Hebrews 7:18-19 - For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God

Hebrews 8:13 - In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

Hebrews 10:9 - then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

We have been redeemed from the law that held the adopted children of Israel in the past tense, and granted the promise to Abraham that was denied during the law's tenure.

None of which addresses the issue of SIN in the BELIEVER. It is easy to take an assemblage of ONE SIDE of these matters. There are just as many on THE OTHER SIDE.

Where is your solution to addressing the scriptures that condemn sin, evil and the powers of darkness and the existence of same IN believers and those scriptures that are clearly PRO LAW?

I have no issues with any of those cited above, but those are not THE ENTIRE ENCHILADA on this subject matter.

This is another red herring that is introduced by you as a response to avoid acknowledging the Gospel.

The red is an unBiblical addition you made to Romans 7 that wasn't written by the author.

Claiming that man "slung" the first covenant out the window is incognizant of Hebrews 10:9 stating that it was Jesus Christ who took it away - not man.

I find no such justifications with regards to the LAW in revealing and condemning sin in any in whom it is found. And hilighting RED didn't change the words one iota.

He served another law of sin in the flesh, and the law mediated by Moses demanded compliance in the flesh - not the mind.

Ah, so SIN IN MIND is now perfectly OKEY DOKEY?

Jesus added the entole showing the mind is capable of sin even without the flesh, showing everyone their need for redemption for transgressions everyone was guilty of.

Indeed. That still does not make that same SIN IN MIND an OKEY DOKEY deal for anyone.

Did you forget that Paul declared of himself "I am carnal, sold under sin" in Romans 7:14? God's solution is found only in His redemption, the means He provided "through which we draw near to God".

And none of this addresses the scriptures that are PRO LAW and numerous other matters you are leaving unaddressed.

Sooner or later you may observe HOW GRACE reacts to SIN in FLESH or in MIND as determined by LAW and whether it's OKEY DOKEY or not for believers to DO SO.

Stating how glorious (which even the ministry of DEATH was GLORIOUS) still has not addressed the issues of GRACE and the realities of SIN in the believers.

enjoy!

s

VictorC · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
None of which addresses the issue of SIN in the BELIEVER. It is easy to take an assemblage of ONE SIDE of these matters. There are just as many on THE OTHER SIDE.

Where is your solution to addressing the scriptures that condemn sin, evil and the powers of darkness and the existence of same IN believers and those scriptures that are clearly PRO LAW?

I have no issues with any of those cited above, but those are not THE ENTIRE ENCHILADA on this subject matter.

These issues are what you have been fighting against for the last 90+ posts, including the partial quote from Romans 7:6 that you refused to answer. And, as far as sin is concerned, Hebrews 10 shows the solution that indicates an action performed by God, and not man:

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Romans 4 affirms the same message of imputed righteousness granted by belief in God's promises apart from compliance to the law - any law, including the covenant of circumcision under Abraham. Our right standing as sinless new creations is an action performed by God, and not ourselves.

In deference to these items you now admit having no issue with, you want to place us under the jurisdiction of the law again, inconsistent with a clear instruction found in Galatians 4:30:

Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

That bondwoman was defined as the covenant from Mount Sinai in verse 24 within the context. That is the law, and you can't reconcile your reversion to the law with this commandment given to the new testament church.

squint said:
I find no such justifications with regards to the LAW in revealing and condemning sin in any in whom it is found. And hilighting RED didn't change the words one iota.

Yes, they did - and you found it necessary to change Holy Writ to suit your prejudice.

squint said:
Ah, so SIN IN MIND is now perfectly OKEY DOKEY?

I have asked you to review Romans 3:7-8 on your own, and I don't believe that you ever did. Here it is:

For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

There isn't anyone advocating sin on this forum, to my knowledge. Not me, nor Arbiter01 that you continue to have problems reconciling your views with material he is presenting to you. That is a baseless accusation that was commonly faced when the Gospel was first proclaimed, and you're using the same false argument that Paul concluded belongs to those worthy of their condemnation.

squint said:
Indeed. That still does not make that same SIN IN MIND an OKEY DOKEY deal for anyone.

Under the first covenant, transgressions were imputed as sin to the offender, and the law didn't have a means of reconciliation other than atonement. It does not forgive your transgressions.

squint said:
And none of this addresses the scriptures that are PRO LAW and numerous other matters you are leaving unaddressed.

In every case, you built your argument on verses taken out of context or assembled into something the author didn't write, as you did with the red addition.

squint said:
Sooner or later you may observe HOW GRACE reacts to SIN in FLESH or in MIND as determined by LAW and whether it's OKEY DOKEY or not for believers to DO SO.

It is evident you don't know what grace is - unmerited forgiveness and righteousness imputed to us without the deeds of the law.

squint said:
Stating how glorious (which even the ministry of DEATH was GLORIOUS) still has not addressed the issues of GRACE and the realities of SIN in the believers.

A reference to 2 Corinthians 3 should have led you to the conclusion found in verse 13: "...And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished".

YosemiteSam · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
Your claim was that the Law is for ONLY the unregenerate. I say that believers still sin, sin is lawlessness and the LAW is against ALL lawlessness in whomever it is found and NOT 'excused' or granted under GRACE.

Argumentum ad populous/numerum doesn't work either.

I do not condone any evil sinning lawless in myself under Grace either. Sorry.

You having different reflections is one thing. Saying I called you liars doesn't exist. Nice try though.

Assertions without factual attendants are just that.

And no, I don't see Paul authorizing his own indwelling sin or evil present's actions under Grace either. Do you?

s

Been reading the post to catch up on the current conversations...catching up on JohnRabbits and Duets' post...it is rather funny how some seem to think that sin was before law...even more disbelieving is that some maintain that the law is abolished although Paul served the law...not sure how one comes to that conclusion...some even maintain that the law of Moses and the law of God is one and the same....scripture after scripture has been posted by both sides....but unfortunately you have been slanderously accused of twisting scripture and promoting evil and sinful things...LOL...and all this by Christian brothers....oh, well, back to the debate i guess

Fireinfolding · Aug 27, 2010

Are you's spekaing of this one?

Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Wouldnt they be the same?

Frogster · Aug 27, 2010

icedragon101 said:
the law was never done away with,it changed locations

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Frogster · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
Nice try Vic.

For summary:

No LAW or GRACE authorizes or condones SIN in any in whom it is found.

Who is aying that?

How about you finally say who, and show the post, because no one is saying that..

It is really not fair to keep saying that without evidence.

Thanks.

DEVILS are lawless. Devils are involved with SIN in MAN. The LAW is against THE LAWLESS. Therefore THE LAW is against them.

Please do try to focus.

enjoy!

s

Frogster · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
Sorry Vic. I didn't do that either. Nice try though!

I have made this observation with you, which same of course got 'left' behind:

Romans 7:
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life,

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual

1 Timothy 1:8
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

Now please tell me if BELIEVERS are to eradicate and throw away that which is:

A. Ordained to LIFE
B. Holy
C. Just
D. Good
E. Spiritual
F. Good if used properly

????

I await your tossing away these things.

enjoy!

s

Your quoting out of seven, but that is prooftexting, because the whole of the story is that good law, aroused sin, so Paul died to the law, and was released from it, and called it bondage 4 times in Galatians, and he said it was for children, elemental and crude, and Peter called it a yoke too.

There..that is the whole, not plucking out verses to confrim your belief.

PS..you quoted 1 tim..forgetting that paul DID NOT WANT THE LAW TAUGHT TO TIM'S CHURCH, IT ID FOR THE UNSAVED, IT SAYS SO RIGHT IN CHAPTER ONE. NO?[QUOTE]

Frogster · Aug 27, 2010

squint said:
hmmm? Yes, I agree that THE LAW is HOLY and totally LETHAL AGAINST SIN,

Really? gimmie scripture please..one NT verse that shows the law stops sin in the heart..one!

and therefore it stands fully secure against that working, just as GRACE does stand against SAME. Neither Law or Grace are conflicting in this direction.

Now, you would agree on the points made?

The Law is:

HOLY
JUST
GOOD
SPIRITUAL
ORDAINED TO LIFE

Incorrect.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

The law was to lead to life, it did not give life. That is why it clearly says the letter kills.

GOOD IF USED PROPERLY

AGAIN.. read the context, it was for unbelievers, this list is just like Rom 1,..not the saved..but the unsaved.

Dude..

8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, [2] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound [3] doctrine,

AND as such BELIEVERS should not throw these things away?

Because the Spirit came, the age of law ended 2000 years ago on a tree. :clap:

A yea or nay is fine. Tread lethally my friend. The observations are a LANDMINE to the power of SIN.

No believer in their right mind would be tossing away such things. But that is only my opinion of that which is HOLY, JUST, GOOD, SPIRITUAL and GOOD IF USED properly to which I'll stick with.

Warning!

That HOLY, JUST, GOOD, SPIRITUAL and GOOD will just cause defeat, that is an historical fact.

Look..they we bound and imprisoned in sin..

22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Where?

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.

Go figure.

enjoy!

s

Frogster · Aug 28, 2010

squint said:
Vic, did you read PAUL?

He said that the sin that indwelt his flesh was NOT HIM.

As such THAT WORKING can remain FULLY CONDEMNED under LAW, not CONDONED by GRACE and it works just fine.

Both the LAW and GRACE can and DO stand against EVIL and SIN and THE DEVILS.

I need to make NO EXCUSES for those workings. THEY ALL are UTTERLY DAMNED, period, end of conversation. I do not 'excuse' EVIL THOUGHTs in my own mind under GRACE. They are SINS and they are INSERTED by SATAN who 'enters' the 'hearts' and MINDS where THE WORD is sown, JUST AS JESUS SAID HAPPENS.

I accept those disclosures to BE TRUE. These are not then only matters of BELIEVERS. There ARE other powers including OTHER ENTITIES that are IN VIEW on these matters.

What can be TRUE for us as believers can REMAIN NOT TRUE for SATAN.

enjoy!

s

I don't understand why you dont see 7 as paul explainig the dynamics of the law arousing sin, as it was intended, rom 5:20, to then die to it...?

That is a fact.

Frogster · Aug 28, 2010

squint said:
You could stand to brush up on comprehension skills.

No reason to get rude. Thanks, frogster.

The EVIL in man remains UNDER LAW and CONDEMNED. The SIN in man remains SIN and as such NOT AUTHORIZED by LAW or CONDONED by GRACE.

The DEVILS are LAWLESS. The LAW remains firmly against THEM as does GRACE.

Paul was not THE SAME as the sin that indwelt him NOR was PAUL EVIL.

Scriptures are clear from the MOUTH of our LORD.

Where THE WORD is sown AN ENTITY that is NOT MANKIND enters the hearts to STEAL, to insert SIN AND EVIL THOUGHTS and that is SATAN.

Satan remains CONDEMNED under LAW and under GRACE.

Believers are NOT that working.

I accept the facts of the workings of SATAN in my own mind, and that that action has also resulted in SIN in thought, word and deed. That working of Satan is NEVER off the hook in these regards, even though I AM not attributed them UNDER GRACE.

Sins are NOT counted against MANKIND. 2 Cor. 5:19

SINS will be FULLY COUNTED against SATAN...he is LAWLESS. The LAW and GRACE are made to bring this realization to US. Both positions not only CAN but ARE true.

Grace removes SIN from attribution to BELIEVERS.

GRACE counts SINS against DEVILS.

Both workings are ACTIVE in ONE LUMP. One is freed, one is CONDEMNED.

enjoy!

s

Frogster · Aug 28, 2010

Deut 5:29 said:
Since God's Law defines sin, anyone who thinks they can do away with it or live without or outside of it obviously want to go their way which leads to sin. So in short yes I can show many posts where people claim they want to sin.

The commands were never intended to stop people from sinning. The commands are to show us what sin is. We must choose whether to sin or not. Only we, with God's help, can keep from sinning.

we are not under law, so sin won't have dominion, sp in light of that, show me one post.

Frogster · Aug 28, 2010

7steps said:
I agree and I also think that people miss the bigger picture of the Torah. The Torah was not 613 rules that people had to follow to be able to be redeemed. That to be justified you had to follow them or else. That is Rabbinical Law and one of the things that Jesus was trying to get across. Gamaliel and all other Rabbi where presenting a religion not God's intention. The Tanach has so much more to teach that is totally ignored because people believe that the Torah was for "them" and we don't have to follow it because we are not saved by it. "They" were not saved by it either. It shows us God's plan of redemption in metaphor after metaphor. It is an instruction manual to live by. It is the instructions of a loving parent telling them how they can live healthy and happy lives. How he planned on saving humanity. How we can have a relationship with him.

Then why did they rely?

Rom 2;17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God

Why then were we the "gentile sinners" as per gal 2? That must mean that the jews seemed to think they were not?

Besides, bible scholar Paul ,who sat under Gam, sure said they were not justified by the law in quite a few places, so that clearly means it was their justification, after all, they were atoned for but not the Gentiles.

If the Jews were to come out from among the unholy ones, that means they must be holy.

Who did away with the law? (2)

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