Protestants: What happened for over 1000 years?

Nick T said:

Now first can I just say this question isn't directed at all protestants but rather those constantly accusing Catholocism and Orthodoxy of idolatry, paganism and other such things.

Many of the practices that the protestants here are so vehemently denouncing were held universally by all christian churches right up untill the reformation. Yes, there were groups who dissented against some of these doctrines (iconoclasm comes to mind) but even in these cases the dissenters only disagreed with a few practices and still followed many doctrines protestants find abhorrant.

Why would God allow his Church to fall into such serious heresy, even idolatry, for over 1000 years when "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”?

Unless of course he finds these practices acceptable...

Note: I know these protestant-catholic debates sometimes get out of hand but hopefully this one won't

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God doesn't force the will. Why did God allow Israel to constantly fall in to apostasy? Was it because He found something acceptable about what they were doing? Not at all, but as the old saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can take that a step further and say you can lead an individual to truth, but you can't make them accept it.

The gates of Hell have not prevailed because the church is still alive and kicking. It has nothing to do with not falling into error, rather Christ was saying that Satan would not be able to eradicate His people.

christianmomof3 said:

I have not read the "Trail of Blood" but I do have a book called "The Pilgrim Church" by E.H. Broadbent The Official Website for The Pilgrim Church Book
that does document the early Christians who were outside of the established religious group that became the RCC and Orthodox. The reformation did not magically come out of nowhere to fix things - there was always a remnant of true believers.
Also, Foxe's Book of Martryrs documents some of the persecution by the early religious church organization to believers.

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As I said, there must always be some form of revisionist history required to make it work.

Dark_Lite said:

This is why you have hypotheses like the Trail of Blood. There always has to be a "remnant" of true Christians (almost always persecuted and suppressed by the big bad evil Church) that preserved the truth while the majority of the Christian world went bonkers and became pagan. Then when the Reformation happened, everything was magically fixed and the Truth was spread to the masses.

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That's how it was with Israel. The pattern hasn't changed simply because the truth was extended in a much broader scope to the gentiles.

Nick T said:

Now first can I just say this question isn't directed at all protestants but rather those constantly accusing Catholocism and Orthodoxy of idolatry, paganism and other such things.

Many of the practices that the protestants here are so vehemently denouncing were held universally by all christian churches right up untill the reformation. Yes, there were groups who dissented against some of these doctrines (iconoclasm comes to mind) but even in these cases the dissenters only disagreed with a few practices and still followed many doctrines protestants find abhorrant.

Why would God allow his Church to fall into such serious heresy, even idolatry, for over 1000 years when "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”?

Unless of course he finds these practices acceptable...

Note: I know these protestant-catholic debates sometimes get out of hand but hopefully this one won't

Click to expand...

The Jews were God's people, weren't they? Yet they fell into idolatry countless times. But there were always a minority, even if that minority was just one man, who God used to bring His people back to correct doctrine.

Likewise, as even you pointed out, there were always a minority around that didn't fall into the idolatry everyone else was, and was used by God to bring to spread the truth. Those people have always been Protestants, even if some of them fell into the same heresy the CC did.

Hope that answers your question.

Stryder06 said:

God doesn't force the will.

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The working of sinning lawlessness that all people carry does react in resisting accordance with Gods Words. You can say that God doesn't force that working, but the reality is that the presence of indwelling sin DOES automatically react adversely and consistently when exposed to The Word.

Why did God allow Israel to constantly fall in to apostasy?

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God Himself elected to BLIND the people of Israel by the placement of a spirit of SLUMBER/STUPOR upon them.

Romans 11:8-9

There are SOME called out in this present life and present time to SEE these matters. They do not choose to see. God Himself MUST be active IN THEM for that to happen. OR God is active in arousing their blindness. It is always GODS CALL on which vessel to deal with in the LUMP of every man.

Was it because He found something acceptable about what they were doing? Not at all, but as the old saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can take that a step further and say you can lead an individual to truth, but you can't make them accept it.

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No amount of obedience is available to any vessel of dishonor no matter the external appearance, tradition, ritual or practice. The fact remains for every person that disobedience in thought, word or deed is a constant companion. People called of God to be honest in this matter will know and speak of this fact and not try to cover it up and are therefore granted release from being a hypocrite. In Truth they gain mastery over that working and HONESTY lives in them abou the facts of these things.

The gates of Hell have not prevailed because the church is still alive and kicking. It has nothing to do with not falling into error, rather Christ was saying that Satan would not be able to eradicate His people.

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God has His elect people of every nation, race, creed or color at any given time. Sectarianism is a contrivance.

Those who LOVE know God, God knows them and such are BORN of God Himself as God is LOVE.

enjoy!

s

Nick T said:

Yes, but its all good to claim that there was a true remnant but another matter to historically prove there was a true remnant.

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That fact that Protestants no longer believes in the heretical teachings of the CC proves that a remnant must have existed at some time.

shinbits said:

That fact that Protestants no longer believes in the heretical teachings of the CC proves that a remnant must have existed at some time.

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The fact that someone out there thinks a teapot is orbiting Neptune means there must be a teapot orbiting Neptune.

^ That is what your line of reasoning can lead to. That is, it's not a valid line of reasoning.

Dark_Lite said:

The fact that someone out there thinks a teapot is orbiting Neptune means there must be a teapot orbiting Neptune.

^ That is what your line of reasoning can lead to. That is, it's not a valid line of reasoning.

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That makes no sense, one has absolutely no correlation to the other.

Thinking a teapot orbits Neptune doesn't make it true. Right?
But for Protestantism to no longer think Catholicism is valid means that there were Protestants that no longer thought Catholicism is valid. Right? Or did Protestantism magically wake up one day, and uniformly decide one morning that the CC was wrong?

Nick T said:

But surely by the same token I can claim that the fact that there is no record of many heretical protestant doctrines before the late middle ages proves that a remnant cannot have existed.

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No. Absence of proof is not proof of absence. That's a fallacy.

Nick T said:

Could you please tell us who some of these proto-protestants were?

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If you are really interested in the topic, I suggest that you read the book "The Pilgrim Church". It is well written and documented.

One group was called Pauicians and also called Thonraks. There was a book called "The Key of Truth" written between the 7th and 9th centuries that detailed their beliefs including that of believer's baptism. They also denounced the idolatry of veneration of relics.

Leo III the Isaurian (680-740) was an emporer of the Byzantine Empire who issued edicts against the worship of images. The worship of images or "veneration" of icons and statues was also denounced at the Counsil of Frankfort in 794.

Another group in Asia Minor was known as the Bogomils - a Slav name meaning "Friends of God" and in the 10th century it was written that they did not honor Mary, they reviled the ceremonies of the "Church" and it's dignitaries and they believed that the bread of the Lord's supper was not the body of God, but ordinary bread. Thus they were denounced as heretics. Today, ya'll would call them Protestants although there was no such term as protestants then.

Nick T said:

But surely by the same token I can claim that the fact that there is no record of many heretical protestant doctrines before the late middle ages proves that a remnant cannot have existed.

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Not necessarily

1 Kings 19:14, 18
14. He replied, "I have been very zealous for the LORD God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
God Said:
18.Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."

So this here would be the earliest example of God having a remnant of individuals, even though they were unknown to the faithful (Elijah).

The only records that matter are the ones in heaven that have the names of the faithful recorded.

shinbits said:

That makes no sense, one has absolutely no correlation to the other.

Thinking a teapot orbits Neptune doesn't make it true. Right?
But for Protestantism to no longer think Catholicism is valid means that there were Protestants that no longer thought Catholicism is valid. Right? Or did Protestantism magically wake up one day, and uniformly decide one morning that the CC was wrong?

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You said that because Protestants exist, there must have been a "remnant" (of protoprotestants I assume) at some time. This is not true.

Take the Donation of Constantine for instance. It claimed that Constantine donated land to the Church. It was used for centuries to justify that claim. No doubt countless generations have come and gone thinking it was real. Turns out, it wasn't real. Yet, the Church still had the land.

Take Mormonism for example. They have a book which describes how the Jews got on a boat and sailed to North America. Said book then later claims that Jesus paid them a visit after he rose from the dead. It claims Reformed Egyptian was a language. Archaeological evidence disagrees with all of this. Yet, they still exist.

Both of those examples are using your line of reasoning. Just because something exists today does not mean that something must have existed in the past. They can think that something must have existed in the path, but it's not absolutely so.

christianmomof3 said:

the Bogomils - a Slav name meaning "Friends of God" and in the 10th century it was written that they did not honor Mary, they reviled the ceremonies of the "Church" and it's dignitaries and they believed that the bread of the Lord's supper was not the body of God, but ordinary bread. Thus they were denounced as heretics. Today, ya'll would call them Protestants although there was no such term as protestants then.

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I think we would probably call them Gnostic: Bogomilism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If you want something more reliable, see Bogomil (religious sect) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia.

So yes, they may have some elements of modern day Protestantism, but I don't think you would want to be associated with the rest of what they teach. They're not a remnant. They were a Gnostic group that happened to agree with a few things found in modern day Protestantism.

wayseer said:

Diving up the spoils?

The church is dead - it died about 30 years ago.

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This after Jesus Promised!

"...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18


The Lord after promising
to be with His Church till the end left it and ordained men who gave us a different one. The Church He created for 1500 years He gave a distorted one so everyone before 1500 would burn in Hell.

“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation and the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints…. When, then, we see so much help on God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church? For starting from the apostolic chair down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the CROWN OF TEACHING AUTHORITY.” (emphasis mine) (Augustine, “The Advantage of Believing 35…392 A.D.)

Dark_Lite said:

I think we would probably call them Gnostic: Bogomilism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If you want something more reliable, see Bogomil (religious sect) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia.

So yes, they may have some elements of modern day Protestantism, but I don't think you would want to be associated with the rest of what they teach. They're not a remnant. They were a Gnostic group that happened to agree with a few things found in modern day Protestantism.

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I honestly have not studied their history so you may be correct. However, even the practices of the early Church that preceeds the RCC and EO were not the exact same as they are now. People did falsify and worship relics and they did carry out the Inquisition and other atrocities and the RCC did sell indulgences all of which nowdays ya'll would not want to be associated with. That does not mean that those things did not exist in the history of your church though.
Therefore, the fact that there were groups in early history that had some elements that are found in modern day Protestantism does answer the OP question.