Do we exist before we are conceived?

LutheranMafia said:

Oh, I understand now. I apologize for being hit and run here, but I'm very limited on time. Here is another example of what you are asking for:

Bind their faces in the world below.
-Job 40:13 (English Standard Version)

Bind them in the hidden place.
-Job 40:13 (New American Standard Bible)

Shut them up [in the prison house of death].
-Job 40:13 (Amplified Bible)



The term in question is compose of two words, taman and chabash. Taman is almost always translated as hid, hide, hiding or secret, though occasionally it is translated as laid. Chabash as a little more complex and is translated as saddle 13, bind up 9, bind 5, put 2, about 1, girded 1, govern 1, healer 1.



The reference to Shoel is implicit in it's being translated as a reference to the abode of the dead, which is also translated as world below, the same term used in Psalms 139:15 as netherworld.

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But the contexts of Job 40 and Psalm 139 are completely different.

LutheranMafia said:

Oh, I understand now. I apologize for being hit and run here and missing the meaning of your challenge, but I'm very limited on time. Here is another example of what you are asking for:

Bind their faces in the world below.
-Job 40:13 (English Standard Version)

Bind them in the hidden place.
-Job 40:13 (New American Standard Bible)

Shut them up [in the prison house of death].
-Job 40:13 (Amplified Bible)

The term in question is compose of two words, taman and chabash. Taman is almost always translated as hid, hide, hiding or secret, though occasionally it is translated as laid. Chabash is a little more complex and is translated as saddle 13, bind up 9, bind 5, put 2, about 1, girded 1, govern 1, healer 1.

The reference to Shoel is implicit in it's being translated as a reference to the abode of the dead, which is also translated as world below, the same term used in Psalms 139:15 as netherworld.

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There is no challenge from me, but whatever. If we were only operating with the lone piece of scripture you've posted here, we would have to conclude that this place is for spirits that already exist, since there is no mention of creating new ones in this place. Since your assertion is that spirits are created in Sheol and the Netherworld, that is what you need scriptures to prove, and you haven't posted any of those. So this new evidence, like all your other evidence, AGAIN, does not support your assertion.

Here's your only verse, Job 40:13, with the other surrounding verses to show context:

Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
Job 40:7 "Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
Job 40:8 Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?
Job 40:9 Have you an arm like God, and can you thunder with a voice like his?
Job 40:10 "Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor.
Job 40:11 Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him.
Job 40:12 Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand.
Job 40:13 Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below.
Job 40:14 Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you.

There's nothing here showing that spirits are created in either Sheol or the Netherworld. These are instructions to Job from God to bind the arrogant and proud people in those places, if he can. But since Job is human and not God, he doesn't have access or dominion over either Sheol or the Netherworld, so he can't do this. Only God can bind people in those places and Job needed to learn that. The message of this scripture is that Job is not God and can not do the things God can do. If Job could do the things that God could do then God would recognize that Job has some power to compete with God. It's a message that reinforces the teaching that without God we can do nothing. Later on in the NT, the apostles are given the power to bind and loose, but they only have that power because it has been given to them by God, they do not have it of their own accord. Also, like salvation, we do nothing to save ourselves, God does everything. That's the point that's being driven home to Job and now to you.

This scripture doesn't support your assertion that spirits are created in Sheol or the Netherworld and that is what you need to show and have failed every time you have tried. This verse fails as support for your assertion. Are you gonna give it up now or are you gonna try again out of your own pride to somehow show that you're right and everyone else is wrong, even though you have been shown repeatedly that you are not right, but indeed very wrong.

LutheranMafia said:

Where are you getting your definitions from? BlueLetterBible.org does not show womb as one of the definitions for cether (secret).

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So BlueLetterBible.org is the only source to be trusted?

LutheranMafia said:

Where are you getting your definitions from? BlueLetterBible.org does not show womb as one of the definitions for cether (secret).

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Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, one that is used by Hebrew Biblical scholars, does indeed show that the word 'sether', in the given context, refers to the womb, as does the word 'tachti' in the given context.

34 pages and you are still trying to convince us that we exist before we are conceived, that reincarnation is true and the secret place in Psalm 139 can not be the womb. Isn't it about time to give it up.

LutheranMafia said:

Then I would turn Zeck's challenge on you, can you find a single other association between the word secret and womb? I found a completely different association between the netherworld and the word secret. Can you find any other kind of association between womb and secret?

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I haven't issued any such challenge. Lying about me won't help you get out of the hole you've dug for yourself.

LutheranMafia said:

It is the only one I can find online.

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Well, it isn't the only one that is online. For instance there is also BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages., Bible Study | Online Bible | Bible Commentary, Home | ESV Study Bible | Crossway, Bible.com - The Bible Online, Bible Prayer Room, Christian Community, Market Place and more.., and I believe Bible Study Tools and Resources - StudyLight.org has the largest collection of Bible Study Resources on the internet!! has some Bible translations online too.

Then if you ever want to get offline, there are free Bible readers like e-Sword and Bible Explorer which you can get at:

e-Sword - the Sword of the LORD with an electronic edge and Bible Explorer - Free Bible Software for Mac and PC

Both programs are packed with commentaries and other useful Bible study tools that you desperately need, and a lot of them are free. Can't beat that.

LutheranMafia said:

I have given another verse that associates the word 'secret' with the Netherworld, just as you requested. I didn't claim that it showed more than that.

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Your claim is that spirits are created in the Netherworld and/or Sheol. You have posted exactly zero Bible verses that support this claim. I don't care if you've shown a verse that associates the word secret with the Netherworld. That doesn't support your assertion that spirits are created in the Netherworld/Sheol.

LutheranMafia said:

The latter.

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Scriptures please.

LutheranMafia said:

Then I would turn Zeck's challenge on you, can you find a single other association between the word secret and womb? I found a completely different association between the netherworld and the word secret. Can you find any other kind of association between womb and secret?

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You simply don't get it and I doubt you ever will. What determines the ultimate meaning of words is the context they are used in. The context determines which part of the semantic filed to apply and whether the word is to be taken literally or figuratively. The context of Psalm 139, especiall the verses in question, are specifically talking about the formation of the physical body, which takes place in the womb. It is specifically mentioned in verse 13, which supplies the allusion found in verse 15 with the words "secret (place" and "depths of the earth". It is crystal clear from the context that the words in question in verse 15 refer to the womb where the physical body is formed. It is in no way referring to the creation of spirits. I showed you the entry from the BDB Lexicon. Apparently the Hebrew Biblical scholars disagree with you as well. They understand the context.

And to answer your question, there is no other passage in Scripture where these words are used in the same context that they are used in Psalm 139, so you're not going to find another instance where this figurative interpretation is found. The context is the determining factor. Until you realize that one most important fact, you will never get it.


You have been shown numerous times that your interpretation of this verse is in error and does not fit the context. Nothing you say will change it. It's over, you lose. Time to move on.

LutheranMafia said:

I am very familiar with BibleGateway.com, it does not have a lexicon of Hebrew. I seriously doubt that any of your other references do either. Try again.

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Here's an idea, why don't you check them out first before you make that claim. Bothe e-Sword and Bible-Explorer have lexicons so your problem is solved and they're free so money isn't an issue. So drop the attitude and do some research into the resources you have been given.

I answered your question about the wording for Psalm 139 pages ago and so have other people.