There MUST be a confessor

Some Other Guy said:

I've seen some truly bizzare things on EWTN. On one show, they were actually teaching children to pray to Pope John Paul.

Click to expand...

Pope John Paul II was a great man. Why wouldn't we want him to pray for us?

laconicstudent said:

Pope John Paul II was a great man. Why wouldn't we pray to him?

Click to expand...

1. Because he's not God.
2. Because he's dead and the Bible forbids praying to the dead.

Some Other Guy said:

1. Because he's not God.
2. Because he's dead and the Bible forbids praying to the dead.

Click to expand...

Not sure what the first part has to do with anything, but can you cite a source for the last part of the second?

Stryder06 said:

I myself don't believe confession is necessary. However, if it is necessary for the Catholic, wouldn't that mean it would be necessary for the non-catholic as well especially if frequent trips to confession would make me holier, as stated by Charles Connor?

Click to expand...

Any believer is as 'holy' as the next. We have a direct line to God through prayer. While it can be beneficial for ones peace of mind to share their sins with someone else, and to help relieve themselves of the temptation by having that support, it is God we go to for forgiveness, and He alone is more than powerful enough to grant forgiveness without having to involve outside parties.

Jared R said:

Not sure what the first part has to do with anything, but can you cite a source for the last part of the second?

Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 18:10-13

JCFantasy23 said:

Any believer is as 'holy' as the next. We have a direct line to God through prayer. While it can be beneficial for ones peace of mind to share their sins with someone else, and to help relieve themselves of the temptation by having that support, it is God we go to for forgiveness, and He alone is more than powerful enough to grant forgiveness without having to involve outside parties.

Click to expand...

I don't remember if I said it in this thread or not, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but Catholics believe that prayers are more or less efficacious not based on the authority of the one being prayed to or whether or not a prayer is in line with God's will, but on the physical proximity of person being prayed to, who then relays their own prayer to God (or, depending on the "saint", answers the prayer, themselves).

The problem is that Catholics don't realize that the dead in Heaven are no more "holy" or righteous than we are, but are in Heaven only because they've had Jesus' righteousness imputed to them, just as the Bible says we have had imputed to us.

There is absolutely no difference in the power or efficacy of their prayers or in their level of righteousness or holiness. The same righteousness has been applied to both of us, them there and us here. The only difference is one of physical location.

Some Other Guy said:

I don't remember if I said it in this thread or not, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but Catholics believe that prayers are more or less efficacious not based on the authority of the one being prayed to or whether or not a prayer is in line with God's will, but on the physical proximity of person being prayed to, who then relays their own prayer to God (or, depending on the "saint", answers the prayer, themselves).

The problem is that Catholics don't realize that the dead in Heaven are no more "holy" or righteous than we are, but are in Heaven only because they've had Jesus' righteousness imputed to them, just as the Bible says we have had imputed to us.

There is absolutely no difference in the power or efficacy of their prayers or in their level of righteousness or holiness. The same righteousness has been applied to both of us, them there and us here. The only difference is one of physical location.

Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of that (the first paragraph) with the proximity and their beliefs. Thanks for clearing that up.

JCFantasy23 said:

I wasn't aware of that (the first paragraph) with the proximity and their beliefs. Thanks for clearing that up.

Click to expand...

"Proximity" is an incorrect way to put it. Catholics believe that the prayers of the holy are powerful, yes, but to call it proximity undermines the actual theology behind it.

Stryder06 said:

Indeed. I was actually thinking of that verse when I was writing this up. Now considering the fact that God is God and the only one who can forgive sins is God, that verse can't mean what it looks like on the outset.

Click to expand...

Well, then what does it mean? The Catholic Church explains it through the concept of in persona Christi: in the person of Christ. It is God forgiving through the priest.

Two, there is no biblical support for apostolic succession. Rather that, from the little research that I've done, is an assumption created by and accepted by the church.

Click to expand...

The laying of hands was the start of it. Much of the rest of it is intertwined with Tradition.

Stryder06 said:

From what i understand it has to deal with the church being able to discern the truly penitent from the false; someone who is trying to get right versus someone faking it. Christ doesn't need a medium to forgive sins. I think if it meant what the Catholic church teaches, we'd have examples of the disciples forgiving sins.

Click to expand...

Err... "I give you the authority to forgive sins" really means "I give you the ability to discern who is penitent?" Seems like a stretch to me.

I acknowledge laying on of hands as nothing more than a seal of approval as it were. One can't "inherit" the Spirit or Power of God. As Peter said to Cornelius, God is no respecter of person.

Click to expand...

Which is why the laying of hands has to be done every time for an ordination.

Stryder06 said:

In all seriousness, do you think his prayers for you would be better than your own prayers for yourself? For that matter, is anyone's prayer better than another?

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not. What does it matter either way?

Stryder06 said:

Well it matters (1) Because the dead know nothing,

Click to expand...

Strange how they aren't ever described that way.

so the person you think you're praying to isn't the one who's listening.

Click to expand...

Even if we allow the first bit, this conclusion doesn't logically follow.

And (2) because you made mention that he was a "great man" as if that meant his prayers would be better than anothers

Click to expand...

Ok.

Stryder06 said:

Is that so?

Ecc 9:5 - For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten

Click to expand...

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


--Revelations 6:9-11


Not particularly ignorant, seeing as they know what is happening on Earth, and all.....

Stryder06 said:

Isa 38:18 - For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness

Click to expand...

Um, "the grave" and "death" does not equal people.


22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "


Luke 16:19-31

Stryder06 said:

It does indeed. Think Saul and the witch of Endor. That wasn't Samuel he was talking to. Therefore he was talking to someone, and it's not a far stretch to figure out who was talking to Saul.

Click to expand...

"What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.



Erm, so no. It would appear to be Samuel.