Once saved, always saved?

Rescued One · Aug 19, 2010

bling said:
It is all up to us.

Are you a humanist then?

bling said:
It is all up to us.

It is the Christian who has been released from Satan's power. It is through faith in Christ that we have the victory and that not because of our own power.

Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We were dead until Christ gave us new life.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The unbeliever has no armor.

Rescued One · Aug 19, 2010

bling said:
Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

This does not show that man can thwart God's plans.

Numbers 23
19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

bling said:
Mark 6: 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.

The created being can not thwart the Creator. Do you think that Christ would perform miracles without reason? I believe that He had His reasons for not doing more miracles there besides healing some of the sick.

bling said:
Matt. 13: 58And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

He chose to not do many miracles there because of their unbelief. But if He wanted to do more than a few miracles who would have the power to stop Him?

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

John 19
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Are you attempting to dethrone God? Do you not believe that He is omnipotent?

skylark1 · Aug 20, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Arminianism flies in the face of scripture as it claims that a wicked person can choose life even though there is no fear of God before his eyes, and he has no understanding of spiritual things nor can he have that understanding unless God quickens him.

You can't support Arminianism without ignoring verse after verse of biblical explanation about the man who is under Satan's power.

According to the Five articles of Remonstance, which were written by 41 followers of Jacob Arminius and defined in written form their views on disputed doctrines, man is able to freely choose because of the prevenient grace of God. These articles clearly state that without this grace man is unable to make this choice.

Article III That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

Article IV That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

Five articles of Remonstrance

This doesn't "fly in the face of scripture." Rather, it is supported by scripture.

Rescued One · Aug 20, 2010

skylark1 said:
This doesn't "fly in the face of scripture." Rather, it is supported by scripture.

I, of course, disagree with you.

Do you believe that man can make the choices that God wants Him to make apart from being given new life by God?

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; / Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: / Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. / But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, / Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"
(Ephesians 2)

Dead people can not bring themselves to life. Only Christ could do that. Likewise, spiritually dead people(who walk according to the prince of the power of the air) can not regenerate themselves.

skylark1 · Aug 20, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
skylark said:

This doesn't "fly in the face of scripture." Rather, it is supported by scripture.

Click to expand...

I, of course, disagree with you.

You are certainly free to do so. However, I strongly suspect that if this view really "flew in the face of scripture," that discussion of it would be regulated to the unorthodox theology section instead of usually being discuused in the main theology section of the board.

[Do you believe that man can make the choices that God wants Him to make apart from being given new life by God?

If you read the part of my previous post that you neglected to quote, you should see that the Armnian positon is that man is able to choose because of the grace of God. I agree with that. I don't believe that one is given new life until they have made the choice to trust and follow Christ.

Dead people can not bring themselves to life. Only Christ could do that. Likewise, spiritually dead people(who walk according to the prince of the power of the air) can not regenerate themselves.

You are neglecting to take into consideration the grace of God spoken of in my last post. Did you read articles III and IV from the Articles of Remonstance, which I quoted? It included the idea that, " all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ." The Arminian position is that man cannot bring himself to life. Only through God's prevenient grace is man able to choose to accept Christ and be born again, but it is still God who gives new life.

steve4.truth · Aug 20, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
You can't support Arminianism without ignoring verse after verse of biblical explanation about the man who is under Satan's power.

Click to expand...

The difference is that I have a logical answer for all those verses. I agree that God has made the first step in drawing men to Him. Man alienated from God is unable to come to God without that initial help from God and subsequent power from the Holy Spirit. It is only in God's power that one can have any type of relationship with God.

On the other hand, I have always noticed in this thread and among pastors when I was growing up, those who believe in eternal security don't even try to give a logical explanation of the "difficult passages". They are quick to assert what it does NOT mean, but have no logical alternative understanding that fits the context. Any belief we have must harmonize with the WHOLE Bible.

Changing over cost me dearly as I was a missionary at the time and was almost expelled from the country as a result of changing my beliefs about eternal security. I lost my house, my position in the churches and many friends. But after closely examining each "difficult verse" in context, I could not HONESTLY hold on to that belief.

Some Other Guy · Aug 20, 2010

woden said:
This idea is popular among some faiths, but is it really the case? For starters, to be saved involves what? To accept Jesus and all that entails. What he did for us (all of mankind) in coming to do his Father's will and to the point of sacrificing his life for us. Most Christians would accept this.

However, some schools of thought will suggest that once we have been `saved` we are always in this condition. Does this mean, then, that we can use our free will to do what we like, without consequences, and still retain the favour of God and His Son?

No. To the contrary, if one is saved, then the Holy Spirit will not allow us to sin without piercing our conscience and convicting us of our sin.

What's more, if we truly understand the grace we've received and God's goodness shown to us, then we will not return to serving sin.

How would you answer and what are your thoughts?

Fifty reasons why a born again believer cannot lose their salvation:

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15; 10:28; Romans 6:23; 1 John 2:25; 5:11; 5:13; etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:40; 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believers behavior.

3. IT IS GODS WILL! John 6:39; It is Gods will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in Heaven is reserved for the believer.

5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break Gods seal.

8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13; The believer actually becomes Gods child and cannot be unborn.

12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can uncreate him.

13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him. Has Christ ever prayed a prayer that was not answered?

17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christs love.

20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all Gods work. He bought it and provided it.

21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believers salvation rests on Gods omnipotent ability to keep him.

22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

cont....

Some Other Guy · Aug 20, 2010

...cont

26. HE IS IN CHRISTS HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviors hand.

27. HE IS IN THE FATHERS HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Fathers hand.

28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

29. GODS MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by Gods mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, He cannot go back on His word.

31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17; 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in Gods sight.

34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christians new birth was from incorruptible seed.

35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saints destiny. He is freed from it.

38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believers behalf.

39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Philippians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

41. HIS LIFE IS CHRISTS LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christs very own life, so how could it be lost?

42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life.

43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christs perfect righteousness.

46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christs body. Bone of His bone....

47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRISTS IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestined.

49. CHRISTS BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION!

If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

For example, they couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? You exult in your supposed "victory" over OSAS, but have you considered what eternal insecurity actually means in everyday life?

St_Worm2 · Aug 20, 2010

skylark1 said:
The Arminian position is that man cannot bring himself to life. Only through God's prevenient grace is man able to choose to accept Christ and be born again, but it is still God who gives new life.

Hi Skylark, we Calvinists agree that man cannot "bring himself to life". A question I've always wondered about is this: Adam was a free man, able to choose both good or evil before the Fall. Is that what you're saying happens to us when God bestows "prevenient grace" upon us, that we have our freedom to choose restored, almost like the Fall never happened?

Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David

skylark1 · Aug 20, 2010

DaLeKo said:
Hi Skylark, we Calvinists agree that man cannot "bring himself to life". A question I've always wondered about is this: Adam was a free man, able to choose both good or evil before the Fall. Is that what you're saying happens to us when God bestows "prevenient grace" upon us, that we have our freedom to choose restored, almost like the Fall never happened?

Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David

Although I haven't heard prevenient grace described as a restoration of freedom to choose as before the fall, I think that this is essentially true. Arminianism holds that since the fall man is depraved, and that it is only through the grace of God that man is able to choose. The belief that man is able to choose God entirely on his own is semipelagianism or pelagianism, not Arminianism. However, those who believe in prevenient grace do not teach that this grace restores all of the effects of the fall, only that this grace draws men to God and enables him to choose to further cooperate with God's saving grace.

Rescued One · Aug 20, 2010

Some Other Guy said:
No. To the contrary, if one is saved, then the Holy Spirit will not allow us to sin without piercing our conscience and convicting us of our sin.

What's more, if we truly understand the grace we've received and God's goodness shown to us, then we will not return to serving sin.

Fifty reasons why a born again believer cannot lose their salvation:

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15; 10:28; Romans 6:23; 1 John 2:25; 5:11; 5:13; etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:40; 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believers behavior.

3. IT IS GODS WILL! John 6:39; It is Gods will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in Heaven is reserved for the believer.

5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break Gods seal.

8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13; The believer actually becomes Gods child and cannot be unborn.

12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can uncreate him.

13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him. Has Christ ever prayed a prayer that was not answered?

17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christs love.

20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all Gods work. He bought it and provided it.

21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believers salvation rests on Gods omnipotent ability to keep him.

22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

cont....

Rescued One · Aug 20, 2010

Some Other Guy said:
...cont

26. HE IS IN CHRISTS HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviors hand.

27. HE IS IN THE FATHERS HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Fathers hand.

28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

29. GODS MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by Gods mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, He cannot go back on His word.

31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17; 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in Gods sight.

34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christians new birth was from incorruptible seed.

35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saints destiny. He is freed from it.

38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believers behalf.

39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Philippians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

41. HIS LIFE IS CHRISTS LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christs very own life, so how could it be lost?

42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life.

43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christs perfect righteousness.

46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christs body. Bone of His bone....

47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRISTS IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestined.

49. CHRISTS BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION!

If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

For example, they couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? You exult in your supposed "victory" over OSAS, but have you considered what eternal insecurity actually means in everyday life?

There is only one unforgivable sin.

To believers:

"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." Amen?

Rescued One · Aug 20, 2010

skylark1 said:
You are certainly free to do so. However, I strongly suspect that if this view really "flew in the face of scripture," that discussion of it would be regulated to the unorthodox theology section instead of usually being discuused in the main theology section of the board.

If you read the part of my previous post that you neglected to quote, you should see that the Armnian positon is that man is able to choose because of the grace of God. I agree with that. I don't believe that one is given new life until they have made the choice to trust and follow Christ.

The believer is the one who passed from death to life. Are you saying that eternal life is reversible? That passing from death to life depends on man rather than God? What happens to the grace that saved the individual? Is it no more grace?

"Lo, I am with you always..."

Rescued One · Aug 20, 2010

skylark1 said:
Five articles of Remonstrance

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

IOW, only as a result of the new birth, can a person make right choices. That is what I have been saying. He must be born again to appreciate the path that follows the Shepherd; to understand spiritual things such as needing salvation.

RufustheRed · Aug 20, 2010

PROPHECYKID said:
Yep the bible says if we confess our sins he will forgive us. WE MUST CONFESS OUR SINS. Anyway you take it there is something we must do.

How does this apply when reading Hebrews 10:26?

RufustheRed · Aug 20, 2010

bling said:
Does God Love us enough to continue to provide us with free will and allow us to make our own choises?

Is this how God loves us, by giving us free will or is it by providing salvation for us by the blood of His lamb? Free will (and I am of that camp) never, ever, ever provided or will provide salvation for us. If the Bible is clear on one point it is this. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:8-10) We are justified by Christ's blood freely given for us. We shall be saved by HIS life, not by ours. Who sanctifies us anyway?

Would it be Loving of an individual to take tell another mature adult: "Your opinion and ideas do not matter or will I consider them?"

This sentence makes no sense. Whould you care to please re-phrase? Thanks.

God's Love is such that He will allow us to even make mistakes in hopes of our repentance like the father in the prodigal son.

I see. So you believe that "free will" is the ultimate gift to mankind? Interesting.

Rufus :wave:

RufustheRed · Aug 20, 2010

bling said:
Love does not force its will on another. God will not force us to do what we do not want to do, because he Loves us. God provides tons of wonderful things for us to do that will strenghthen [sic] our resolve, but it is still up to us. Just as the Father in the prodigal son story allowed the son to leave and did not drag him back, God will allow us to leave.

Call for reference, please. Show me the passage where it states that God does not force us to do what we do not want to, please. Is it the ones where He harden that Pharaoh's heart? Oh, but of course, God cannot control His creation, correct? Perhaps God allows some to make heavenly choices and makes heavenly choices for others. That way you all can both be right. Right?

RufustheRed · Aug 20, 2010

Originally Posted by Phoebe Ann

Satan would have to gain power over God's possession. Satan can't.

bling said:
It is all up to us.

WOW! :o Can you tell me why believer's have the Holy Spirit? What purpose do you suppose the Spirit is for?

If Not For Grace · Aug 20, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
If Christ actually saved a person, is it a temporary gift? Or is not a gift at all, but something a person must be worthy of? If a person is saved, is he following Satan or Christ? Is the person turned from darkness to light or is he still walking in darkness? If he is still walking in darkness and claims to be saved, how can we accept what he claims?
quote]

But can one not "return" for lack of a better word the gift-What about Saul? (King David's Father-in-Law) was he not once saved (annointed) & then Lost? Or even Judas Iscariot?

(Am honestly asking) I do not believe Salvation is earned in any way-but can a person not simply revert to unbelief and thus lose Salvation?

skylark1 · Aug 20, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
skylark said:

You are certainly free to do so. However, I strongly suspect that if this view really "flew in the face of scripture," that discussion of it would be regulated to the unorthodox theology section instead of usually being discuused in the main theology section of the board.

If you read the part of my previous post that you neglected to quote, you should see that the Armnian positon is that man is able to choose because of the grace of God. I agree with that. I don't believe that one is given new life until they have made the choice to trust and follow Christ.

Click to expand...

The believer is the one who passed from death to life. Are you saying that eternal life is reversible?

I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. My words that you quoted were in response to your question, "Do you believe that man can make the choices that God wants Him to make apart from being given new life by God? Through the grace of God we are able to choose to respond to his calling. When we do so, we are given new life. The choice comes first, but it is not a choice that is made apart from God's grace.

That passing from death to life depends on man rather than God?

That is not what I said at all. If it depended upon man, then there would be no need for prevenient grace.

What happens to the grace that saved the individual? Is it no more grace?

I have no idea why you would ask this. I think that somehow you have misunderstood what I have written. My point all along was that Arminian theology does not teach that man chooses God oin his own. He coluld not come to God without the prevenient grace of God enabling him to do so.

Once saved, always saved?

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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