Can anyone tell me what this is

You know what they say about assertions.

Standing Up said:

You know what they say about assertions.

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Your info says you are 54.

SpiritualAntiseptic said:

Your info says you are 54.

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Yeah, too much expectation.

Didn't we go around on the Council of Laodicea and whether RC considered it valid and binding for RC? I probably still have that stunning private message you sent me. Anyway, the Council forbade the reading of noncanonical books. What catalogue did it list?

Did Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas, or anyone before Trent definitively conclude them as canon? But hey, Trent made its choice and later we see the fruit therefrom with the Pope kissing the Koran.

Standing Up said:

Did Jerome, Augustine, Aquinas, or anyone before Trent definitively conclude them as canon? But hey, Trent made its choice and later we see the fruit therefrom with the Pope kissing the Koran.

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Because as well all know, two separate events separated by 500+ years are completely related. Allow me to bring out the lemon graph:

Dark_Lite said:

Because as well all know, two separate events separated by 500+ years are completely related. Allow me to bring out the lemon graph:

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I was wondering if I'd have to explain the connection. This might help. Fruit takes some time to come forth, eh?

It's like what Polo suggested, there's X and then there's the RC version of X.

Even today Ethiopian Jews still use the Septuagint version, not the shorter Palestinian canon settled upon by the rabbis at Javneh. In other words, the Old Testament canon recognized by Ethiopian Jews is identical to the Catholic Old Testament, including the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

There are various theories as to when the Jews closed their Old Testament canon. One is that the Old Testament was closed once and for all by Ezra (400 BC). This is a view that was held by some of the Fathers, a number of more recent Catholics and many Protestants. Such a view, however, runs into a number of difficulties. For example, the second book of Ezra contains genealogies of the High Priests continuing 150 years after the death of Ezra. In the same book is a list of the descendents of King David traced down to the sixth generation after Zerobabel, that is, down to about 300 BC. The existence of these genealogies is proof enough that the Old Testament canon remained open at least 150 years after Ezra’s death.



In fact, the Old Testament canon was still in a state of flux in the time of Christ with both the Sadducees and Samaritans, for example, accepting only the first five books of Moses as inspired and canonical. The great Jewish historian, Josephus Flavius, provides one important hint as to why uncertainty still surrounded the Old Testament canon so late in its history:

"From the time of Artaxerxes to our own time, our history has been written down very particularly (accurately and in detail), but these books have not been considered worthy of the same credit as the books of earlier date, because there has not been an exact succession of prophets."2



From these last words it is evident that Josephus required a prophet to appear and canonize the Deuterocanon in the same way other prophets in the past had done for the Protocanon. The question at the time of his writing was still held in abeyance. Unbeknown to Josephus this "prophet" was to be Christ and the Apostles.



Nevertheless, Josephus makes it clear that though not canonized the Deuterocanon enjoyed great credit among the Jews as inspired literature:

"But what credence we have given to all those books of our own nation is evident from our conduct; for, though so long a time has passed, no one has ever been so bold as to add anything to them whatsoever. But all Jews are instinctively led, from the moment of their birth, to believe that these books contain divine oracles and to abide by them and, if need be, gladly to die for them."3


As if to emphasize this point further, Josephus says that in the composition of his Jewish Antiquities he had used exclusively "sacred writings," yet he frequently quotes 1 Maccabees and the deutero fragments of Esther. Further, in the Talmud Baruch is referred to as a "prophetic book," Wisdom as "written by Solomon" and the book of Sirach is quoted often.

In addition, excepting the Book of Wisdom and 2 Maccabees all the other parts of the Deuterocanon were previously written in Hebrew. This points to Palestine not only as their place of origin but also where the Alexandrian Jews received their belief in their inspiration and divine character. This is why there are no records of any schism or controversy on the subject between the Palestinian and Alexandrian Jews.



For the Jews no final determination of the Old Testament was to be made until the Council of Jamnia (Javnah) in 90 AD. The Jews in this Council (and again in 118 AD), seeking to build a new focal point for their religious beliefs after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, and in an attempt to counter the early Christians who quoted the Septuagint in support of the claims of Christ, only accepted those Old Testament books which were (i) written in Hebrew; (ii) conformed to the Torah; (iii) pre-dated the time of Ezra; and (iv) written in Palestine. The Jewish authorities now xenophobically considered the Septuagint "too gentile." Only the Ethiopian Jews retained the Septuagint version and still do so today (Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147). In any case, for Christians Jamnia is not authoritative, as all legitimate authority had passed to the Catholic Church sixty years earlier at Pentecost. By rejecting the seven additional books of the Septuagint Protestants therefore effectively follow the canon of the Old Testament as determined by the Jews at Jamnia.

it sounds like the book of Proverbs...which is inevitably about wisdom, and she is called "her" and she is described as standing on the roof tops shouting wisdom, for those who have ears to hear.

brinny said:

it sounds like the book of Proverbs...which is inevitably about wisdom, and she is called "her" and she is described as standing on the roof tops shouting wisdom, for those who have ears to hear.

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well it makes sense they sound the same
they are both written by King Solomon

brinny said:

it sounds like the book of Proverbs...which is inevitably about wisdom, and she is called "her" and she is described as standing on the roof tops shouting wisdom, for those who have ears to hear.

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Which is interesting because Christ is the wisdom of God

1 Cr 1:24 "Christ is the wisdom (sophia /feminine noun) of God"

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Standing Up said:

Here's one explanation:

c175 Melito of Sardis (of Rev.'s 7 churchs) puts together a list of the OT.

The five books of Moses—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua,36233623 ᾽Ιησοῦς Ναυῆ. Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two of Chronicles, the book of the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, also called the Book of Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Job, the books of the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, of the twelve contained in a single book, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From these I have made my extracts, dividing them into six books.
ANF08. The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Here's Wiki:

Book of Wisdom or Wisdom of Solomon or simply Wisdom is one of the deuterocanonical books of the Bible. It is one of the seven Sapiential or wisdom books of the Septuagint Old Testament, which includes Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon (Song of Songs), and Ecclesiasticus (Sirach).
According to St. Melito in the second century AD, it was considered canonical by Jews and Christians,[1] and a Hebrew translation of the Wisdom of Solomon is mentioned by Naḥmanides in the preface to his commentary on the Pentateuch.
Book of Wisdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's confusion whether Melito meant a separate Wisdom book or if Wisdom is Proverbs. But from the same Wiki--

Although the Book of Wisdom is non-canonical in the Rabbinical Jewish tradition, the work was at least known to medieval Jews, as Rabbi Moses ben Nachman (Ramban) attests. That it was known to ancient Jews as well is trivially true, as that was the milieu of its composition.

So more than likely Melito did not receive Wisdom as canon, but Proverbs as canon, meaning also that Wisdom is not canon (although some so declare anyway).

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Are you sure?
Because that almost makes Protestant Reformationists look intelligent.

Fireinfolding said:

Which is interesting because Christ is the wisdom of God

1 Cr 1:24 "Christ is the wisdom (sophia /feminine noun) of God"

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

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Is it idiom? As if wisdom were a vessel to carry us toward truith & idiom would follow feminine reference to ships, anyway? I'm just guessing.

Rick Otto said:

Is it idiom? As if wisdom were a vessel to carry us toward truith & idiom would follow feminine reference to ships, anyway? I'm just guessing.

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Sure, its by Him we come to the Father too right?

The Beginning is feminine as well

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (archē feminine noun ) and the end, the first and the last.

that's pretty tight.

Standing Up said:

According to Jewish sources, it was never part of canon.

But, hey, I know what you'll say, "the bishop is above all".

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Christian Bishop > Jewish Rabbi,

In determining Christian canon.

Dark_Lite said:

Because as well all know, two separate events separated by 500+ years are completely related. Allow me to bring out the lemon graph:

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You have no idea how long I've been looking on the internet for that particular image since I first saw it in my research statistics class.

Love righteousness, you rulers of the earth, think of the Lord in goodness and seek him with sincerity of heart. (Wisdom of Solomon 1:1)

narnia59 said:

So what is the criteria discernible from the Scriptures themselves regarding what constitutes those books belonging to the canon of Scripture?

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Is there a Lutheran who has more information about this? It reads like there should be criteria Luther established using Scripture for what should be in the canon, but I am unaware of that and would like to know.

laconicstudent said:

Christian Bishop > Jewish Rabbi,

In determining Christian canon.

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That didn't take long.

narnia59 said:

Is there a Lutheran who has more information about this? It reads like there should be criteria Luther established using Scripture for what should be in the canon, but I am unaware of that and would like to know.

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Technically Luther did not remove the Deuterocanon. His German Translation of the Scriptures included all the Deuterocanon (Michuta p. 246). He was more prone to innovations in the translation itself. Early in his life he quoted the Deuterocanon as Scripture often (247-248). It seems the first occasion of his rejection of a book was of 2 Maccabees in a debate with Eck, a Catholic, over the issue of Purgatory which Luther rejected. Eventually, Luther had to appeal to Jerome, and even in that instance he was doing so arbitrarily and also using select writings of Jerome who was not consistent himself (250).

Pertinent quotes of Luther are in Michuta's book too.