Concerning Salvation

visionary said:

God still included those outside of Israel. Israel may have thought they had exclusive rights, but God didn't intend it to be that way of thinking. He wanted Israal to be a nation of priests teaching the world His Way. In this they failed. It has never been God intent that only Israel be part of His Kingdom. Ask Ninevah.. Jonah had an Israeli attitude, but God didn't.

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Greetings, yes, Gentiles have always been welcome to adopt the Jewish system and as you cited the repentance of Ninevah, for they did not ascribe to the laws of Israel.

I have not considered this in this light but Scriptural History reveals this, thanks bring this out.

Benefactor/Easystreet

anthony55 said:

Sorry, only Israel had a High Priest pertaining to the things of God, and He represented the Children of Israel only !

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From Eastons Bible Dictionary
Proselyte:
Is used in the LXX. for “stranger” (1Ch_22:2), i.e., a comer to Palestine; a sojourner in the land (Exo_12:48; Exo_20:10; Exo_22:21), and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism. There were such converts from early times (Isa_56:3; Neh_10:28; Est_8:17). The law of Moses made specific regulations regarding the admission into the Jewish church of such as were not born Israelites (Exo_20:10; Exo_23:12; Exo_12:19, Exo_12:48; Deu_5:14; 16; 11, 14, etc.). The Kenites, the Gibeonites, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites were thus admitted to the privileges of Israelites. Thus also we hear of individual proselytes who rose to positions of prominence in Israel, as of Doeg the Edomite, Uriah the Hittite, Araunah the Jebusite, Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah and Ebedmelech the Ethiopians.
In the time of Solomon there were one hundred and fifty-three thousand six hundred strangers in the land of Israel (1Ch_22:2; 2Ch_2:17, 2Ch_2:18). And the prophets speak of the time as coming when the strangers shall share in all the privileges of Israel (Eze_47:22; Isa_2:2; Isa_11:10; Isa_56:3-6; Mic_4:1).

student ad x said:

From Eastons Bible Dictionary
Proselyte:
Is used in the LXX. for “stranger” (1Ch_22:2), i.e., a comer to Palestine; a sojourner in the land (Exo_12:48; Exo_20:10; Exo_22:21), and in the New Testament for a convert to Judaism. There were such converts from early times (Isa_56:3; Neh_10:28; Est_8:17). The law of Moses made specific regulations regarding the admission into the Jewish church of such as were not born Israelites (Exo_20:10; Exo_23:12; Exo_12:19, Exo_12:48; Deu_5:14; 16; 11, 14, etc.). The Kenites, the Gibeonites, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites were thus admitted to the privileges of Israelites. Thus also we hear of individual proselytes who rose to positions of prominence in Israel, as of Doeg the Edomite, Uriah the Hittite, Araunah the Jebusite, Zelek the Ammonite, Ithmah and Ebedmelech the Ethiopians.
In the time of Solomon there were one hundred and fifty-three thousand six hundred strangers in the land of Israel (1Ch_22:2; 2Ch_2:17, 2Ch_2:18). And the prophets speak of the time as coming when the strangers shall share in all the privileges of Israel (Eze_47:22; Isa_2:2; Isa_11:10; Isa_56:3-6; Mic_4:1).

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Sorry, only Israel had a High Priest pertaining to the things of God, and He represented the Children of Israel only !

Paul said of other nations eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

anthony55 said:

Sorry, only Israel had a High Priest pertaining to the things of God, and He represented the Children of Israel only !

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Thanks for sharing your view, I disagree with it.

student ad x said:

Thanks for sharing your view, I disagree with it.

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You disagree with this:

Paul said of other nations eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

anthony55 said:

You disagree with this:

Paul said of other nations eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

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Scripture out of the context from the side-discussion of proselytes in Israel, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

student ad x said:

Not applicable to the topic and I'm not arguing with you about it.

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You disagree with this:

Paul said of other nations eph 2:

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

And God did not Love those who were without God, christ and without Hope in the world.

heymikey80 said:

Then could you clarify what you're saying the passage establishes?

Reminder -- Calvinism teaches a general or "universal" call to repentance.

In general Calvinism builds a consistent view of plain statements, whether they're negative or positive.

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It established that God commands all to repent only. This verse trumps any notion that may be taught that God does not require all to repent. If a doctrine is formed that teaches that God does not command all to repent it would not be in keeping with this truth, as I understand it.

anthony55 said:

He has commanded all elect men to repent in light of their remission of sins.

Repentance and remission did not just belong to ethnic jews, but for men and women everywhere of the promise children of Abraham.

Gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

So the Israel [seed of Abraham] that repentance was given to was not limited to ethnic Israel, but in Spiritual Israel, nevertheless repentance is limited to Israel:

acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here includes all the seed of Abraham of gen 17:5

Repentance is universal in a limited sense, Its universal in the sense that the seed of Abraham is to be found universally in all nations, but its limited in the sense that its only for the seed of Abraham [Israel of God]

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Anthony, this view given is very restrictive, the language in OP indicates that repentance is commanded universally, and leaves no room for doubt that all of mankind in all places are in mind.

If the view posited as highlighted in red suggest that Jews only are to repent. How is the following verse accounted for in this manner of teaching?

Scripture speaks of Jews and Gentiles required to repent;


Acts 20:21 solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Benefactor said:

It established that God commands all to repent only. This verse trumps any notion that may be taught that God does not require all to repent. If a doctrine is formed that teaches that God does not command all to repent it would not be in keeping with this truth, as I understand it.

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OK -- in Calvinism that's "general call" to repentance. I've never heard it referred-to as "universal repentance" -- when I Google that it returns a narrow Russian Orthodox nationalistic teaching.

Hypercalvinists often reject the general call.

heymikey80 said:

OK -- in Calvinism that's "general call" to repentance. I've never heard it referred-to as "universal repentance" -- when I Google that it returns a narrow Russian Orthodox nationalistic teaching.

Hypercalvinists often reject the general call.

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Acts 17:30 τοὺς μὲν οὖν χρόνους τῆς ἀγνοίας ὑπεριδὼν ὁ θεὸς, τὰ νῦν ἀπαγγέλλει / παραγγέλλει τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πάντας πανταχοῦ μετανοεῖν,
The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent,
Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular

Original Word: παραγγέλλω
Transliteration: paraggelló
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ang-gel'-lo)
Short Definition: command


Word Origin
from para and aggelló
Definition
to transmit a message, to order
NASB Word Usage
charge (1), command (4), commanded (4), commanding (1), direct (1), directed (2), gave (1), give...order (1), give instructions (1), giving...instruction (1), instruct (2), instructed (3), instructing (3), ordered (3), Prescribe (2).


all people everywhere

For me universal is synonymously related to "all people everywhere"

General does not, for me, lends its self to be synonymous with "all people everywhere".

Also, I am not saying "universal repentance" which seems implies everyone will repent. The text only commands universal repentance. It is awkward to say God commands general repentance. What is general repentance if it is not actual repentance toward God which is commanded universally, "all people everywhere". "Generally speaking verses specifically speaking" is the difference and the command is specific and universal.

Do you know how the word general came to be associated with this? Do you have Wallaces' Grammar? Does he make any comments concerning ἀνθρώποις πάντας πανταχοῦ?

Acts 26:20 ἀλλὰ τοῖς ἐν Δαμασκῷ πρῶτόν τε καὶ Ἱεροσολύμοις, πᾶσάν τε τὴν χώραν τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἀπήγγελλον μετανοεῖν καὶ ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, ἄξια τῆς μετανοίας ἔργα πράσσοντας.

but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, (nations) that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.
Verb: Present Active Infinitive


Word for word for those looking in

but the ones in Damascus first and also in Jerusalem all also the country of the of Judea and to the nations I announced to repernt and to turn to the God worthy of the repentance works doing.

Implied in this verse is faith, because we know from many other passages that faith is necessary for salvation, Romans 10, Luke 7:10 as two clear examples of this truth. The faith passages less the language to repent should be understood to mean that faith is part of the package, necessary for regeneration (saved Titus 3:5, born from above John 3:7) in those cases. In verses like this where only repent occurs believing faith is implied because of our understanding of the order of salvation and this is a normal literal way of using the language, but to demand that believing faith is not part of the equation in these type verses is to do what is understood as a "wooden literal" approach to interpreting the Scripture. When it comes to "real believing faith repentance is there" and when it comes to "real repentance believing faith is there". It is safe to say that real believing faith cannot exist apart from repentance visa versa.

We know that Paul's world was not the entire world. Whatever geographical understanding was known in Paul's mind included that, its total. Christians have been taking this serious from the beginning of the declaration of the great commission. This is another example of the difference between the methods of interpretation under this thread "Concerning Salvation". It is known that Paul's world was not literally the complete earth, but the intent of the language did not designate the extent of the boundary of "nations" and in 17:30 the adverb "everywhere" while not needed supports the clear thrust of "to the nations" "gentiles". If I were to dogmatically insist that the scope from these verses is the known world then that would be wooden literal. If I allow the words to mean what they convey then the known world, which in their mind, was the entire world. To view it this way and not restrict it to the then known world is "normal literal interpretation."


The text is not saying that everyone will be saved, universal salvation cannot be concluded form all of Scripture as is my lifelong understanding and investigation, it is not there, but salvation is a universal offer, as it the command to repent. In the same way Acts 17:30 is universal so too is the great commission. The gospel includes preaching repentance and faith in Christ.

So it is normal (not wooden) to understand that in the command for all to repent and the great commission to go into all the world, that being the same world that is commanded to repent, tells us that we are to tell every individual in all parts of the world regardless the Gospel of God and that being according to the purpose of the Life of Christ to save sinners, all people are sinners, all then are savable, this is a "normal literal conclusion" verses a "wooden literal conclusion", by simply accepting the text for what it tells us.

Luke 15

The Lost Sheep

1Now all the (A)tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him. 2Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and (B)eats with them."

We have two classes of people (1) tax collectors and sinners; (2) Pharisees and Scribes


3So He told them this parable, saying, 4"(C)What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

We have an interesting set of data and we call it our context.

First, we have the two groups (1) tax collectors and sinners and (2) Pharisees and Scribes

*** Note *** What is being communicated here? It is fare to assume that the tax collectors and sinners are lost, not saved, not regenerated and if they die will go to hell. There is no evidence in Scripture that if they die in their sin they would get to go to heaven. What about the Pharisees and Scribes? As we read the four gospels we come to understand for the most part they were religious but lost and just as lost as the tax collectors and sinners (historical cultural terminology identifying the difference between the ones that have favor with God and those that do not). Jesus offers a parable to illustrate a point. All the sheep belong to one owner and one is lost then found and joy existed.

Who are the sheep in this context? (1) tax collectors, sinners, Pharisees and Scribes or (2) tax collectors, sinners only or (3) Pharisees and Scribes only?

Let us look at verse 7

7"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

We see two distinctions here: (1) sinners and (2) 99 righteous who need no repentance.

Keeping it in context and identifying the parties means that sinners = "tax collectors and sinners" and 99 righteous who need no repentance = "Pharisees and Scribes"

This being the case because we are keeping it in context and there isn't any other room within this context to dispute this understanding unless one moves outside normal literal interpretation, allowing the language to say what it says with all its parts within it's genre, a parable resulting in a correct understanding as I have given. There is no other unless a different method of interpretation is applied and that cannot be "normal literal" because this is what is used.

benefactor:

Anthony, this view given is very restrictive, the language in OP indicates that repentance is commanded universally

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Gods elect people, the seed of Abraham is universally located Gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Abraham had Children that God made him a Father of in many nations, does not that qualify as universally ?

anthony55 said:

benefactor:



Gods elect people, the seed of Abraham is universally located Gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Abraham had Children that God made him a Father of in many nations, does not that qualify as universally ?

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As I understand it and according to my theological view (dispensational premillennial) the topic of repentance does include Abraham's seed (Jews and Gentiles) who are God's elect. However, the verse cited teaches that repentance is commanded to all peoples everywhere not just those who are elect regardless of one’s theological understanding as to how they are elected, my is according to foreknowledge.

Benefactor said:

As I understand it and according to my theological view (dispensational premillennial) the topic of repentance does include Abraham's seed (Jews and Gentiles) who are God's elect. However, the verse cited teaches that repentance is commanded to all peoples everywhere not just those who are elect regardless of one’s theological understanding as to how they are elected, my is according to foreknowledge.

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Thats why repentnance was universal, because Gods elect is universal, they were not restricted to just the jewish nation. Jesus said, other sheep I have that are not of this fold, them to I must bring, they shall hear my voice through the Gospel, therefore Go ye into all the world..

Repentance is universal but restricted to the seed of Abraham.

anthony55 said:

Thats why repentnance was universal, because Gods elect is universal, they were not restricted to just the jewish nation. Jesus said, other sheep I have that are not of this fold, them to I must bring, they shall hear my voice through the Gospel, therefore Go ye into all the world..

Repentance is universal but restricted to the seed of Abraham.

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The view expressed is noted and I have heard of this view many times, however, I see it much differently.

For me and many, those that see it as I do, understand the Bible as teaching that there are three separate entities, Israel, Gentiles, The Bride of Christ Abraham has two titles, one physical and the other spiritual. The view is called "Premillennial Dispensational
'

(1) He is the natural progenitor of the house of physical Jews, the 12 twelve son's of Israel.

(2) He is the "representative" father figure head of the family of faith, which includes all who trust in God's good news in their time and dispensation both Jew and Gentile, those today called the "Bride of Christ" others are in the family of faith but under a different dispensation all saved by faith and this all because of the work of God that being the Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ.

however, I see it much differently.

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I can see, you know where I stand. Repentance is in view of remission of sins according to Jesus lk 24:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

God the Holy Spirit does not give an inward command to repent to people whom Jesus Christ blood has not remitted their sins.

Why tell a unforgiven, condemned reprobate, to repent in view of forgiveness of sins, when their sins are not forgiven ?

The Holy Ghost knows whose sins are forgiven and whose are not, that is why He issues the command.

Benefactor said:

The view expressed is noted and I have heard of this view many times, however, I see it much differently.

For me and many, those that see it as I do, understand the Bible as teaching that there are three separate entities, Israel, Gentiles, The Bride of Christ Abraham has to titles, one physical and the other spiritual. The view is called "Premillennial Dispensational
'

(1) He is the natural progenitor of the house of physical Jews, the 12 twelve son's of Israel.

(2) He is the "representative" father figure head of the family of faith, which includes all how trust in God's good news in their time and dispensation both Jew and Gentile, those today called the "Bride of Christ" others are in the family of faith but under a different dispensation all saved by faith and this all because of the work of God that being the Death, Burial, Resurrection and Ascension of Christ.

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Believers in Christ are the seed of Abraham Gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And Abraham's seed is Israel Isa 49:11

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Jesus has only given repentance and remission of sins to Israel acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel [seed of Abraham], and forgiveness of sins.

Benefactor said:

For me universal is synonymously related to "all people everywhere"

General does not, for me, lends its self to be synonymous with "all people everywhere".

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Rest assured though, some theologians refer to it as the "universal call". It's pretty clear it's not universal, in a number of senses. "universal" is synonymously related to "all regardless of time or location", not simply "all people everywhere". That would contradict the start: "but now".

It's also not universal in the sense that God hasn't delivered a firsthand command to everyone everywhere, on His Own. He's simply delivered such for us to deliver.

But if you're looking for "universal", well, it's used here, however equivocally.

Benefactor said:

Also, I am not saying "universal repentance" which seems implies everyone will repent. The text only commands universal repentance. It is awkward to say God commands general repentance.

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"Universal Call" if you like. The way Jesus put it, "Many are called, but few are elected." That's one place where the General Call gets its Scriptural footing. So's Matthew 13. Also, "Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." Rom 1:5

Benefactor said:

What is general repentance if it is not actual repentance toward God which is commanded universally, "all people everywhere". "Generally speaking verses specifically speaking" is the difference and the command is specific and universal.

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What is it? Well, first, it's "universal repentance" you started out with, but in both cases, it's a view that says repentance is either generally attributed to people, or that repentance is universally attributed to people. Neither is what Scripture actually says.

The same implicated issue continues. How do you distinguish your terminology from those who believe that eventually everyone will repent?

For once, there's at least some agreement on a systematic term. You want to change it? Be my guest. Just don't expect to be clearly understood with idiomatic terminology.

Y'want to see what "universal repentance" refers to more-widely?

It seems to refer to three things -- universal salvation:

A view of the repentance of Israel ala Rom 11:25ff:
http://www.mckenziestudycenter.org/theology/articles/gentiles.html
The complete repentance of the sanctified person in Orthodoxy and neonomianism, e.g. at:

Benefactor said:

Do you know how the word general came to be associated with this? Do you have Wallaces' Grammar? Does he make any comments concerning ἀνθρώποις πάντας πανταχοῦ?

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"General Call" is the systematic identification of a call which is made without respect of persons. It's supported by the events, not the grammar, of Paul at Areopagus. It would not be in a Greek grammar.

Paul also doesn't say "universal". So -- given that neither term is exegetical, an agreed-upon term would be better than one on which there's no agreement.