Psalms 139:15-16 physical or spiritual substance?

(As I replied in the other vote, but I guess with the new voting options you'd prefer this one to be used)

I'd say physical, the KJV uses 'substance' in both verses but others use different words (eg. NASB uses 'frame', then 'unformed substance'. Although the second seems to refer to what the first had mentioned. The Hebrew word used is a form of o'-tsem which means might/bones/strength and (to me) implies a physical entity as opposed to a spiritual/non physical substance.

The very word "substance" is a physical manifestation...

Faith is also the substance of things hoped for and considered an evidence of things not seen as well.

Jesus was also manifested but he also speaks of being perfected himself

Just started looking into this given I hadnt looked at this one closely before but I wonder if you can see the body of Christ in accord with the above question, after a spiritual truth (as manifested)

I repeat one verse three times only to show a comparison can be made but I thought it was kool, I have just breifly looked at this so nothings firm on it or anything

Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.


Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which incontinuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

A people which shall be created

Ephes 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Again...

Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which incontinuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Whereas the law made nothing perfect here being unperfect (speaking of "my substance") which to me, even as defined as sorta "embryonic" can be (spiritually speaking) of the body of Christ in some sense as well

Again...

Psalm 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which incontinuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Because here they are as "newborn babes" (here, no longer embryo's in a sense) but newly born

1Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Whereas the ministry of the saints pertains to the "perfecting" of the body (his members) verses yet being perfected, and it speaks of a people which "shall be" created even as we are "created in Christ"

H6108
עצם
‛ôtsem
o'-tsem
From H6105; power; hence body: - might, strong, substance.

Repeated only 3 other times in OT:

Deu 8:17 "Otherwise, you may sayH559 in your heartH3824, 'My powerH3581b and the strengthH6108 of my handH3027 madeH6213a me thisH2088 wealthH2428.'

Job 30:21 "You have becomeH2015 cruelH393 to me; With the mightH6108 of Your handH3027 You persecuteH7852 me.

Psa 139:15 My frameH6108 was not hiddenH3582 from You, WhenH834 I was madeH6213a in secretH5643a, And skillfullyH7551 wroughtH7551 in the depthsH8482 of the earthH776;

The embryo folded up in the shape of an egg is here called גֹּלֶם, from גָּלַם, to roll or wrap together (cf. glomus, a ball), in the Talmud said of any kind of unshapen mass (lxx ἀκατέργαστον, Symmachus ἀμόρφωτο&#957 and raw material, e.g., of the wood or metal that is to be formed into a vessel/

Also see Job for ref to embryo formation:
Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.
Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?
Job 10:10 Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese?
Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
Job 10:12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

LutheranMafia said:

Are you referring to the "unperfected substance" in verse 139:16? Yab Yum referred to a Hebrew word that is only used 3 times in the OT, but the word for substance in 139:16 is used only once in the OT. The word is "golem", which in Jewish folklore refers to a clay statue that is animated with sorcery. It is also used in modern Hebrew to refer to an amorphous blob of clay that has yet to be molded. It is also a Yiddish insult for someone who is clumsy and slow.

Click to expand...

Yes, golem

LutheranMafia said:

Are you referring to the "unperfected substance" in verse 139:16? Yab Yum referred to a Hebrew word that is only used 3 times in the OT, but the word for substance in 139:16 is used only once in the OT. The word is "golem", which in Jewish folklore refers to a clay statue that is animated with sorcery. It is also used in modern Hebrew to refer to an amorphous blob of clay that has yet to be molded. It is also a Yiddish insult for someone who is clumsy and slow.

Click to expand...

It's really interesting to me that this only occurs one time in OT.

Here's Barnes: The single word in the original translated “my substance, yet being unperfect,” is גלם gôlem. It occurs only in this place, though the verb - גלם gâlam - is found in 2Ki_2:8, where it is used in reference to the mantle of Elijah: And Elijah took his mantle, and “wrapped it together,” etc. That is, he rolled it up, or he folded it. The noun, then, means that which “is” rolled or wrapped together; that which is folded up, and hence, is applicable to anything folded up or undeveloped; and would thus most aptly denote the embryo, or the foetus, where all the members of the body are as yet folded up, or undeveloped; that is, before they have assumed their distinct form and proportions. This is undoubtedly the idea here. Before the embryo had any such form that its future size, shape, or proportions could be marked by the eye of man, it was clearly and distinctly known by God.

Clarke: למי golmi, my embryo state - my yet indistinct mass, when all was wrapped up together, before it was gradually unfolded into the lineaments of man. “Some think,” says Dr. Dodd, “that the allusion to embroidery is still carried on. As the embroiderer has still his work, pattern, or carton, before him, to which he always recurs; so, by a method as exact, revere all my members in continuance fashioned, i.e., from the rude embryo or mass they daily received some degree of figuration; as from the rude skeins of variously coloured silk or worsted, under the artificer’s hands, there at length arises an unexpected beauty, and an accurate harmony of colcurs and proportions.”

Gill: The word for "substance" signifies a bottom of yarn wound up, or any rude or unformed lump; and designs that conglomerated mass of matter separated in the womb, containing all the essentials of the human frame, but not yet distinguished or reduced into any form or order; yet, even when in this state, the eyes of the Lord see it and all its parts distinctly.

Keil & Deilitzsch: The embryo folded up in the shape of an egg is here called גֹּלֶם, from גָּלַם, to roll or wrap together (cf. glomus, a ball), in the Talmud said of any kind of unshapen mass (lxx ἀκατέργαστον, Symmachus ἀμόρφωτο&#957 and raw material, e.g., of the wood or metal that is to be formed into a vessel (Chullin 25a, to which Saadia has already referred).
(Note: Epiphanius, Haer, xxx. §31, says the Hebrew γολμη signifies the peeled grains of spelt or wheat before they are mixed up and backed, the still raw (only bruised) flour-grains - a signification that can now no longer be supported by examples.)