Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

Apologist · Jan 7, 2003

Originally posted by franklin

Begotten and created have the same meaning, why don't dust off your dictionary and look it up for yourself.  God, not the three-in-one God, but the one true God of the scripture, by the Spirit, spoke and worked through, His Son, the man Christ Jesus. Jesus is the "beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14). Are you straight on that definition now? 

So God created Jesus in your theology?

This is the same argument the Watchtower uses when they come to your door. You are not a Jehovah's Witness are you?

The word "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 means origin or source.

Jesus is the source of creation not a created being himself.

By the way "begotten" and "created" do NOT mean the same thing.

Begotten is 'gennao' in the Greek and can mean the following from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:

1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children

2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christs work

Do you see what numbers 2c and 2d mean? They are metaphorical which is what is in mind for Christ being "begotten."

The word 'created' is 'ktizo' and is the Greek word in which it's Hebrew equivalent is used in Gen 1.

franklin · Jan 8, 2003

  Originally posted by Apologist
So God created Jesus in your theology?

God created his Son according to scripture, not my theology.  I don't have a theology. But I think you do. Begotten in Websters, Produce, create .... your just mincing words, and putting the usual spin on it to fit your ill-conceived theology or should I say Hypothesis? 

This is the same argument the Watchtower uses when they come to your door. You are not a Jehovah's Witness are you?

The J dubya's also believe in the rapture? Do you?  I don't!  Are you a dubya?  Naw, your not right?  This question is really getting worn out!  The JW question! 

 
The word "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 means origin or source.
Jesus is the source of creation not a created being himself.

Click to expand...

Does this mean that he was the first thing actually created, or does it mean that he is the foundation stone of the final, perfected result?

By the way "begotten" and "created" do NOT mean the same thing.

Click to expand...

Dust off your Websters, I already covered this!    

 

Blackhawk · Jan 8, 2003

One only has to read the gospel of John to see that the Trinity is biblical. In chapter 1 amongst other places Jesus is shown as God. Jesus was shown as the Word and verse 1 clearly says that the "Word was God." Later John speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person and states that He will send the Holy Spirit. When He does this He states that He will send one like Him. In the greek it means that He is like Him in nature. So if Jesus is God then the Holy Spirit is God. I just do not understand how we can still be having this debate about the Trinity when john made it clear 2,000 years ago.

**note i can get the exact verses if anyone wants me too but John is so clear that all 3 are God that if one says that John does not support all 3 as God then I think they have either not read the whole text (possibly just read some article about what it says) or worse that they are knwoingly trying to decieve and turn people away from the truth.

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
One only has to read the gospel of John to see that the Trinity is biblical. In chapter 1 amongst other places Jesus is shown as God. Jesus was shown as the Word and verse 1 clearly says that the "Word was God." Later John speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person and states that He will send the Holy Spirit. When He does this He states that He will send one like Him. In the greek it means that He is like Him in nature. So if Jesus is God then the Holy Spirit is God. I just do not understand how we can still be having this debate about the Trinity when john made it clear 2,000 years ago.

**note i can get the exact verses if anyone wants me too but John is so clear that all 3 are God that if one says that John does not support all 3 as God then I think they have either not read the whole text (possibly just read some article about what it says) or worse that they are knwoingly trying to decieve and turn people away from the truth.

Yeah I just read articles, where can I get a Bible anyways?  

  Be careful to immediately call someone a deceiver who is seeking the truth through scripture.  If I am wrong the HS will correct me when the time is right for Him to do so right?  I have nothing to gain by giving another side to this doctrine.  I am not, however, passing judgment on anyone who says He is God, merely seeking for the utmost truth in this matter. 

Is John as clear as you say he is in that Jesus was God and not the Son of God?

 (Joh 20:31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 (Joh 1:34) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

 (Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (note: pay particular attention to this whole scripture because some people think that if you don't think Jesus is God you're not a Christian or will not be saved... this says otherwise; BTW, not directing this note at you BH) 

(Joh 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 

(Joh 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Joh 5:26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;(note: Two different lives mentioned here?  God has life in Himself?  The Son has life in Himself?  hmmm)

(Joh 6:69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Joh 10:36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 

(Joh 11:4) When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. 

If we simply went by sheer number, He is called the Son of God and not the Father a LOT more.

(sorry that I'm font-challenged when I paste)

Phoenix · Jan 8, 2003

Is John as clear as you say he is in that Jesus was God and not the Son of God?

Actually JS, yes he was. Again keep in context the audience John was writing His Gospel to. Each time i get into these discussions i find something through research or inspiration that i hadn't seen before. Copied from the back of my Bible:

When God disclosed Himself to Israel at Mount Sinai He was already pointing forward to His revelation in Christ. God's design for the tabernacle, given on the mountain, was threatened by Israel's worship of a golden calf. God said that it was too dangerous for stiff necked Israel to have the holy God living in His tabernacle in the middle of their camp. Instead, God proposed to stay outside the camp and to meet with Moses there. He would go before the people to lead them in Canaan, but He would not dwell in their midst ( Ex. 33:1-6 ) Moses knew that if God were not to dwell with His people there would be no point in their going to Canaan. He could only plead with God to show His glory and grace. God heard his prayer: He proclaimed His name to Moses as the God who is full of grace and truth. He promised to dwell in the tabernacle and to receive Israel's sacrafices for the forgiveness of their sins. John's Gospel tells us the glory Moses asked to see has been revealed in Jesus Christ. The grace and truth declared to Moses is given in Christ, for in Christ God comes to dwell with us. The tabernacle was filled with the cloud of glory to symbolize God's dwelling with His people; the Incarnation is the reality that the tabernacle pictured. John testifies, And the Word became flesh and dwelt ( tabernacled ) among us and we beheld His Glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Phoenix
Actually JS, yes he was. Again keep in context the audience John was writing His Gospel to. Each time i get into these discussions i find something through research or inspiration that i hadn't seen before. Copied from the back of my Bible:

When God disclosed Himself to Israel at Mount Sinai He was already pointing forward to His revelation in Christ. God's design for the tabernacle, given on the mountain, was threatened by Israel's worship of a golden calf. God said that it was too dangerous for stiff necked Israel to have the holy God living in His tabernacle in the middle of their camp. Instead, God proposed to stay outside the camp and to meet with Moses there. He would go before the people to lead them in Canaan, but He would not dwell in their midst ( Ex. 33:1-6 ) Moses knew that if God were not to dwell with His people there would be no point in their going to Canaan. He could only plead with God to show His glory and grace. God heard his prayer: He proclaimed His name to Moses as the God who is full of grace and truth. He promised to dwell in the tabernacle and to receive Israel's sacrafices for the forgiveness of their sins. John's Gospel tells us the glory Moses asked to see has been revealed in Jesus Christ. The grace and truth declared to Moses is given in Christ, for in Christ God comes to dwell with us. The tabernacle was filled with the cloud of glory to symbolize God's dwelling with His people; the Incarnation is the reality that the tabernacle pictured. John testifies, And the Word became flesh and dwelt ( tabernacled ) among us and we beheld His Glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Thanks for the post, and that's a great read... but one question...

WE are now the temples are we not?  If God dwells in us as temples through the HS does that make us God?  Think about it.

Phoenix · Jan 8, 2003

Think about it

I sure there's about a mile long Scriptural answer to that question JS, but i dont want to think that i'm God. God dwells with me because i have Christ and it is only through Christ that i have God. Those are boundries i dont want to go out of.

Blessings to you !

franklin · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I just do not understand how we can still be having this debate about the Trinity when john made it clear 2,000 years ago. 

I'm afraid not BH, the trinity was not made clear during Jesus day and it was never even taught by him in any shape or form.  Actually I can understand why this debate is still being discussed, it's because the majority of believers are still believing in this false teaching.  With that said here is a question for you to try to ponder and answer:

Q. If Jesus was not fully human, but had another nature that was divine, then how can he expect us to live up to his standards?

We do not have a second divine nature. If Jesus is not fully human, then this whole temptation episode is a farce.

 

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Phoenix
I sure there's about a mile long Scriptural answer to that question JS, but i dont want to think that i'm God. God dwells with me because i have Christ and it is only through Christ that i have God. Those are boundries i dont want to go out of.

Blessings to you !

Huh?  Well I think you acknowledge that you are not God simply because He lives within you through the HS... now go from there...

Here's a question somewhat off topic somewhat on...

Why did Jesus have to die so that the Comforter (HS) could come?

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by franklin

Q. If Jesus was not fully human, but had another nature that was divine, then how can he expect us to live up to his standards? We do not have a second divine nature. If Jesus is not fully human, then this whole temptation episode is a farce.

 

And that is exactly where this makes an excuse to sin.  If it took God to live in the flesh without sin, then we never can so we can sin all we want and it's okay because Jesus died for our sins.  He didn't die so we could sin more. 

Paul said we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.  If only God can be perfect in the flesh than how can Paul say that we have to be as well?  Jesus took away that excuse that was around in the times of the OT.

And like you mention in the question.  Jesus WAS tempted and God cannot be (we are told by scripture) so if Jesus was God then how was He tempted?  Conundrum anyone?

billhabing · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
And that is exactly where this makes an excuse to sin.  If it took God to live in the flesh without sin, then we never can so we can sin all we want and it's okay because Jesus died for our sins.  He didn't die so we could sin more. 

Paul said we are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.  If only God can be perfect in the flesh than how can Paul say that we have to be as well?  Jesus took away that excuse that was around in the times of the OT.

And like you mention in the question.  Jesus WAS tempted and God cannot be (we are told by scripture) so if Jesus was God then how was He tempted?  Conundrum anyone?

Jesus servant, I don't want you to think i am a wise guy, But Jesus is the one who said Be Perfect as Our Father in Heaven. That even puts a little more bite into for me.

And the fact is that when God has children they are baby gods. If you look close at the gospels you will see that Jesus called disciples the "light" and He is also the "Light" He taught us to do what He did, heal etc. He calls us "brothers"( in Heb) He Prayed for us to be one with Him and one with the Father. The fact is that we are him (small h) in the world today. Can any one say when you see me you see Jesus? If we are one with Him this should be true. Can we say come follow me? if not why not?

This is a high calling and  should put away any notion that living in sin is ok. I wonder why the teaching is so rejected?

Just another seeker, no longer a preacher, in His love

Your Friend Bill

franklin · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
And like you mention in the question.  Jesus WAS tempted and God cannot be (we are told by scripture) so if Jesus was God then how was He tempted?  Conundrum anyone?

Right JS,  The very fact that Jesus was tempted should be enough reason alone to reject the trinity.  That should be the "end of the story" for the hypothesis known as the trinity.  If God can be tempted that would be a direct contradiction of scripure! 

Hebrews 2:18, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted..."  The writer is talking about Jesus in this passage if your out there Blackhawk. 

Hebrews 4:15, "...but was in all points tempted like as we are..."

If this is true, then there is no way Jesus was 100% God!  It just cannot be forced to fit the scriptual picture of who Christ is!  No Way ! Trinitarians have this concept in their minds that the trinity paints a beautiful picture of who Jesus is.  Quite the contrary!  It destroys the glorious and true scriptural beauty of our wonderful savior!  He was fully man who lived in total submisson and obedience to the will of God His father and never sinned! 

James declared that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13).

If Jesus was 100% fully God then James lied to us!

Come on BH, Let's hear your answer to this.  I'm sure you'll come up with the usual sort of reply like, He was God in human form or something like that etc ..... The scripture is extremely clear and you don't need creeds to clarify it!

Apologist · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
Begotten in Websters, Produce, create .... your just mincing words, and putting the usual spin on it to fit your ill-conceived theology or should I say Hypothesis

Dust off your Websters, I already covered this!    

 

Dust off my Webster's? Sorry, the bible wasn't written in English, so using an English dictionary to back up the meaning of words translated from Greek to English is rather silly.

billhabing · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
Right JS,  The very fact that Jesus was tempted should be enough reason alone to reject the trinity.  That should be the "end of the story" for the hypothesis known as the trinity.  If God can be tempted that would be a direct contradiction of scripure! 

Hebrews 2:18, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted..."  The writer is talking about Jesus in this passage if your out there Blackhawk. 

Hebrews 4:15, "...but was in all points tempted like as we are..."

If this is true, then there is no way Jesus was 100% God!  It just cannot be forced to fit the scriptual picture of who Christ is!  No Way ! Trinitarians have this concept in their minds that the trinity paints a beautiful picture of who Jesus is.  Quite the contrary!  It destroys the glorious and true scriptural beauty of our wonderful savior!  He was fully man who lived in total submisson and obedience to the will of God His father and never sinned! 

James declared that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13).

If Jesus was 100% fully God then James lied to us!

Come on BH, Let's hear your answer to this.  I'm sure you'll come up with the usual sort of reply like, He was God in human form or something like that etc ..... The scripture is extremely clear and you don't need creeds to clarify it!

Bill Habing says, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus es el nino de Dios, It don't matter what language you use, Jesus Is the Son of God

Apologist · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
Right JS,  The very fact that Jesus was tempted should be enough reason alone to reject the trinity.  That should be the "end of the story" for the hypothesis known as the trinity.  If God can be tempted that would be a direct contradiction of scripure! 

Hebrews 2:18, "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted..."  The writer is talking about Jesus in this passage if your out there Blackhawk. 

Hebrews 4:15, "...but was in all points tempted like as we are..."

If this is true, then there is no way Jesus was 100% God!  It just cannot be forced to fit the scriptual picture of who Christ is!  No Way ! Trinitarians have this concept in their minds that the trinity paints a beautiful picture of who Jesus is.  Quite the contrary!  It destroys the glorious and true scriptural beauty of our wonderful savior!  He was fully man who lived in total submisson and obedience to the will of God His father and never sinned! 

James declared that "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13).

If Jesus was 100% fully God then James lied to us!

Actually you are misinterpreting James. James 1:13 actually says "for God cannot be tempted by evil. (NKJV) It says "by" and not "with."

From the Bible Knowledge Commentary:

James offered a sharp rebuke to those who find an easy excuse for their sinning. To free themselves from responsibility they say, I am tempted by God, or from God (apo theou), denoting the origin, not merely the agency. James made it abundantly clear God cannot be tempted. There is nothing in God to which evil can make an appeal. He is literally untemptable (apeirastos; cf. comments on Heb. 4:15). Furthermore, He tempts no one. God often tests, but He never tempts.

Blackhawk · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
Yeah I just read articles, where can I get a Bible anyways?    Be careful to immediately call someone a deceiver who is seeking the truth through scripture.  If I am wrong the HS will correct me when the time is right for Him to do so right?  I have nothing to gain by giving another side to this doctrine.  I am not, however, passing judgment on anyone who says He is God, merely seeking for the utmost truth in this matter. 

 

Sorry but I am very tired of seeing the same posts against the Trinity.  I am tired of the debate when John was clear.   

Is John as clear as you say he is in that Jesus was God and not the Son of God? 

(Joh 20:31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 (Joh 1:34) And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

 (Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (note: pay particular attention to this whole scripture because some people think that if you don't think Jesus is God you're not a Christian or will not be saved... this says otherwise; BTW, not directing this note at you BH) 

(Joh 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 

(Joh 5:25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Joh 5:26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;(note: Two different lives mentioned here?  God has life in Himself?  The Son has life in Himself?  hmmm)

(Joh 6:69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Joh 10:36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 

(Joh 11:4) When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. 

If we simply went by sheer number, He is called the Son of God and not the Father a LOT more.

(sorry that I'm font-challenged when I paste) [/B]

Well Jesus is the Son of God.  The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that He is not.  The doctrine of the Trinity is that God is 3 persons with one substance. The 3 persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

Phoenix · Jan 8, 2003

The very fact that Jesus was tempted

Matt 4:7  Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.

End of story.

But lets look at Hebrews a little..

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Lets look again back to...

Matthew 4:10 Away with you Satan ! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.  

Looking forward again..

Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

The Father calls Jesus God ?

Now we're getting somewhere ..

If Jesus was 100% fully God

Jesus was fully God and fully man..

Heb 4:14-16

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need. 

As an aside .. Franklin said ..

it destroys the glorious and true scriptual beauty of our wonderful savior

Funny how i think both sides of this argument feel the same way either for or against.

To our Glorious and Wonderful Savior !

Peace.

Blackhawk · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
I'm afraid not BH, the trinity was not made clear during Jesus day and it was never even taught by him in any shape or form.  Actually I can understand why this debate is still being discussed, it's because the majority of believers are still believing in this false teaching.  

Well then how do you explain what john says?

First we all know the scripture that says that there is only one God.  So God must be of atleast one substance right?

now let's get to john.  First we find out that the Word is God. 

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NAU)

John 1:14-15
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me."'
(NAU)

Now here wqe learn 2 things.

1. The Word became human.

2. John saw Him and made a particular statement when he saw Him. 

John 1:25-30
25 They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
26 John answered them saying, "I baptize in water, {but} among you stands One whom you do not know.
27 "{It is} He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
30 "This is He on behalf of whom I said, "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
(NAU)

Here we find out that Jesus was the man that john the apostle said made the same statement to that John the Baptist said about the Word.  Hmm. interesting huh?

Later Jesus uses a name for Himself that should only be used for God. 

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NAU)

Here Jesus is asking God to glorify Him when Yahweh said He would not give His glory to another. 

John 17:5
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(NAU)

Here God is saying that worship is reserved for Him only.

Exod 20:2-5
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
(NAU)

But Jesus accepted worship. (Mark5:6)

also jesus accepted titles about Him that are only resderved for God such as "The first and the last.", Or "The true light."  (JOhn 1:9)

Here Thomas calls Jesus God.

John 20:27-29
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed {are} they who did not see, and {yet} believed."
(NAU)

Jesus claimed to be judge of all which is a right only reserved for God. (Matt 25:31-46 and John 5:27-30)

Jesus forgave sins Himself. (Mark 2:5) Again this is an action that only God can do. 

I can go on and give more references as to why Jesus is Go or give some about why the Holy Spirit is but I think this is enough.  If Jesus was not God then He spoke blasphemy.

 

With that said here is a question for you to try to ponder and answer:

Q. If Jesus was not fully human, but had another nature that was divine, then how can he expect us to live up to his standards?

We do not have a second divine nature. If Jesus is not fully human, then this whole temptation episode is a farce.

  [/B]

Well Jesus human nature was tempted and He said no.  I do not understand your point here really.  It is not like Jesus was not really tempted because He was fully God. 

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
 

Sorry but I am very tired of seeing the same posts against the Trinity.  I am tired of the debate when John was clear.

Just remember that it's better to know Jesus as your Lord and saviour and seek for every truth and understand all you can grasp than to deny Him and live in sin and deceive others away from the hope that is Christ.  So we are on the same team so-to-speak.  I don't think I'll ever tire of discussing scripture and Jesus whether people don't agree with me or not.  EDIT:  Re-reading this it almost sounds like I'm accusing you here BH, I didn't mean it negatively, like you tire of talk about the Lord, obviously not, hope you didn't take this negatively, God bless! :EDIT

Well Jesus is the Son of God.  The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that He is not.  The doctrine of the Trinity is that God is 3 persons with one substance. The 3 persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

So you must know how hard this is to accept and/or understand.  This is obviously a doctrine that takes a faith of its own.  I am not saying there are not good arguments on the side that Jesus was God and that's why I am staying with this until I get an answer from God Himself or there is such conviction from the Holy Spirit that I have to simply accept it.  This hasn't happened yet so I am still seeking as many viewpoints as I can get.  So far I've learned some things from both sides I haven't even looked at before (viewpoint wise).

God bless!

JesusServant · Jan 8, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Well then how do you explain what john says?

First we all know the scripture that says that there is only one God.  So God must be of atleast one substance right?

now let's get to john.  First we find out that the Word is God. 

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NAU)

John 1:14-15
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

 

Just another perspective...

How did God want us or the Jews of the OT to be?  How did He want them to live and love one another?  Is Jesus not the epitome of God's word and fulfilled every characteristic that God wanted to see in all of His people?  To me, Jesus fulfilled the Word of God promised in the prophecies of the OT and lived up to exactly what God wants us all to be.

Now obviously He needed help, and that was the anointing of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.  Now we have access to it if we're deemed worthy by God.  I have to go back and make sure but I don't think anyone answered the question...

Why did Jesus have to die for the Comforter to come?  (Jesus said this, I think we should all know He did, but I can find the scripture if need be)

Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

Monkey Boy

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

Senior Member

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

Senior Member

Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

Regular Member

Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Regular Member

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Monkey Boy

Senior Member

Monkey Boy

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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