Are any Messianic Jews here converts from traditional Judiasm. If so, what was the reason for your acceptance of Jesus as the Christ?
Jewish Converts
- Thread starter Chris†opher Paul
- Start date
Just wanted to mention that I was a Christian first, then flirted with Messianic Judaism, and then converted to Orthodox Judaism 18 years ago.
With respect...
With respect...
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You mean what are my best reasons, or what at the time was on my mind?
If the later,
I had a friend who was Jewish. I studied with him, and admired him for the fact he put in more study time and less t.v. time that I did.
He was disciplined, more than I.
He spent more time on his homework, was just as moral as I was, etc etc.
I remember reading an article about a woman who put her child's hand over a stove fire. When the child would cry, the abused child would seek out the bosom of the abusing mother.
I remember thinking the woman was sick (or evil, but most likely sick).
Now, I had those thoughts at about thirty feet from his back door.
As I was leaving, I was wondering how we know there is a God.
I was a very committed Christian (Assembly of God with a strong Babtist influence with Methodist... kind of all blended together. Everyone in highschool knew I was a Christian from the tracts I had to the Jesus shirts I would wear to the 'Praise the Lord' medallion I wore around my neck so much it wore the metal down where the chain rubbed against it... come to think of it, that thing was made pretty well. I wore a cross before I bought that one, but I lost my favorite cross, which I got at an Ashram where I went camping. I got THAT cross from the camp store. Never found one I liked as much as that one. The only picture of me in the HighSchool year book is of me playing violin in the orchestra. If you look closely, you will see the shirt I'm wearing says, 'Give the Master Charge of your life'. It was in the form of a Master Charge credit card. *sigh*
Oh, back...
anyway, I wondered how I could describe God, and what logic I could use to prove God to others.
Well, we would describe our absolute Supreme Creator as Powerful, and by extension good...
Then it hit me.
Christianity taught that God was too weak or unable or unwilling to 'forgive' us for the original sin (or perhaps, any of the great number of sins we manage to do during our lives.)
And who 'saves' us from that punishment?
Who saves us from hell?
Who is the one we want to get to the bosum of?
Who do we hope for, who saves us from God?
Jesus.
Jesus saves us from God's hell.
Jesus saves us from God.
Jesus saves us from the creator of hell.
Jesus saves us from a God who is on a par with what we think of as the devil. It actually the devil who is going to burn us in hell. According to Christianity, it is God who is going to arrange that. The devil, real or not, is kind of besides the point.
We, Christains, paint God as a child abuser. That's not a nice picture. That's not nice of us to do.
That is flat out rude.
Logially, who says God can't just forgive us?
Why did God need to come as a man, just so God could turn around and forgive us anyway? Why did God need to jump through hoops?
Why couldn't God just skip all that and do what he wanted to do, and just forgive us without the cross?
Why does Jesus get all the good feelings, and God is the 'Old Testiment' ancient removed cold (cruel) icy God?
Why does Jesus get all the real glory, he's the real savior, our savior from God.
I do one thing wrong, and my Father tortures me forever? Please Jesus save me from God??
I happen to have been born into Christianity, and learned this 'trick' of a sacrifice theology, so I get eternal heaven, whereas my friend, and anyone who had never heard of Jesus gets eternal hell? (I later learned that the Philippines didn't get the message of Christianity until 500 years ago. EVERYONE in the Philippines goes to hell until the Christians came in the 1500's??
How is that just?
How is that merciful?
Is that the BEST picture we can paint of God?
I concluded by the time I left his back door garage that I had to leave Christianity, and I felt that Judaism was all that was left.
I went and learned about Judaism, and after a few months I checked out Orthodox Judaism, as it seemed historically to be the most authentic.
I have much better reasons, now, 18 years later.
Biblical reasons.
I hope that answers your question.
I wasn't having emotional problems, I wasn't sick, I wasn't going through a crisis.
I was 18 at the time.
Wait, 18??? That was 20 years ago.
Man. Why does that happen?
Can't I just skip my birthdays, would that help???
Thank you for your question.
If the later,
I had a friend who was Jewish. I studied with him, and admired him for the fact he put in more study time and less t.v. time that I did.
He was disciplined, more than I.
He spent more time on his homework, was just as moral as I was, etc etc.
I remember reading an article about a woman who put her child's hand over a stove fire. When the child would cry, the abused child would seek out the bosom of the abusing mother.
I remember thinking the woman was sick (or evil, but most likely sick).
Now, I had those thoughts at about thirty feet from his back door.
As I was leaving, I was wondering how we know there is a God.
I was a very committed Christian (Assembly of God with a strong Babtist influence with Methodist... kind of all blended together. Everyone in highschool knew I was a Christian from the tracts I had to the Jesus shirts I would wear to the 'Praise the Lord' medallion I wore around my neck so much it wore the metal down where the chain rubbed against it... come to think of it, that thing was made pretty well. I wore a cross before I bought that one, but I lost my favorite cross, which I got at an Ashram where I went camping. I got THAT cross from the camp store. Never found one I liked as much as that one. The only picture of me in the HighSchool year book is of me playing violin in the orchestra. If you look closely, you will see the shirt I'm wearing says, 'Give the Master Charge of your life'. It was in the form of a Master Charge credit card. *sigh*
Oh, back...
anyway, I wondered how I could describe God, and what logic I could use to prove God to others.
Well, we would describe our absolute Supreme Creator as Powerful, and by extension good...
Then it hit me.
Christianity taught that God was too weak or unable or unwilling to 'forgive' us for the original sin (or perhaps, any of the great number of sins we manage to do during our lives.)
And who 'saves' us from that punishment?
Who saves us from hell?
Who is the one we want to get to the bosum of?
Who do we hope for, who saves us from God?
Jesus.
Jesus saves us from God's hell.
Jesus saves us from God.
Jesus saves us from the creator of hell.
Jesus saves us from a God who is on a par with what we think of as the devil. It actually the devil who is going to burn us in hell. According to Christianity, it is God who is going to arrange that. The devil, real or not, is kind of besides the point.
We, Christains, paint God as a child abuser. That's not a nice picture. That's not nice of us to do.
That is flat out rude.
Logially, who says God can't just forgive us?
Why did God need to come as a man, just so God could turn around and forgive us anyway? Why did God need to jump through hoops?
Why couldn't God just skip all that and do what he wanted to do, and just forgive us without the cross?
Why does Jesus get all the good feelings, and God is the 'Old Testiment' ancient removed cold (cruel) icy God?
Why does Jesus get all the real glory, he's the real savior, our savior from God.
I do one thing wrong, and my Father tortures me forever? Please Jesus save me from God??
I happen to have been born into Christianity, and learned this 'trick' of a sacrifice theology, so I get eternal heaven, whereas my friend, and anyone who had never heard of Jesus gets eternal hell? (I later learned that the Philippines didn't get the message of Christianity until 500 years ago. EVERYONE in the Philippines goes to hell until the Christians came in the 1500's??
How is that just?
How is that merciful?
Is that the BEST picture we can paint of God?
I concluded by the time I left his back door garage that I had to leave Christianity, and I felt that Judaism was all that was left.
I went and learned about Judaism, and after a few months I checked out Orthodox Judaism, as it seemed historically to be the most authentic.
I have much better reasons, now, 18 years later.
Biblical reasons.
I hope that answers your question.
I wasn't having emotional problems, I wasn't sick, I wasn't going through a crisis.
I was 18 at the time.
Wait, 18??? That was 20 years ago.
Man. Why does that happen?
Can't I just skip my birthdays, would that help???
Thank you for your question.
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0
According to Christianity, God is the source of all goodness, and being the Loving Father, He won't force anyone to be with Him forever, so He gives you the option to be by yourself. There are no flames or torture, but it does indeed suck being away from all that is good, and He is nice enough to warn us about that place that we could put ourselves into if we want.
Even God in the Old Testament is a God of Justice. What is Just about having a law that nobody obeys and letting everyone do whatever they want to each other?
Jesus doesn't save us from God, Jesus saves us from ourselves. We are loved enough to be given freewill, but with that freedom we often mess up, and since God is so loving, He went so far as to sacrifice His own Son for our sins, in order to preserve Justice. All we have to do is love Him and accept that gift. Its beatiful really.
I appreciate your long explanation, but I simply don't understand how you think this is not the picture of a Loving God?
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I agree with that.
But my Christian teachers told me that hell would be more along the lines of Dante's inferno.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. ...
But to the Christian who rejects the notion of physical torment, I salute you and have no problem with that. Surely you are aware that many Christians do not agree with you, and it is that disagreement which justifies extreme measures to make people Christian?
But if you reject the notion of an infinately painful and eternal hell, I welcome your rejection.
Now, if I can crowbar out the need to have the details of the cross, I'm almost there with you.
(Why would an Indian need to know Jesus' name and the exact nature of his death?
What if an Indian young man - never having heard the name 'Jesus' - what if he prayed simply to the invisible Great Maker, and asked for forgiveness?
Would he go to heaven?
That's the last step.
Get past the need to know 'Jesus' specific life details or the whole Sacrifice details [would I go to heaven if I mistakenly thought that God came as Bobby who was burned to death over three days? What if I thought God came as a tree and was frozen to death over a year? What if I thought that God had no body and yet suffers as any Father would, every time I sin? {Who is the most tragic figure in the Jewish Bible? God.}] Allow God to forgive freely [Is 55:7], game over. You're Jewish. Put another way, you're God's.)
The Jewish God is clearly a God of Mercy, as well.
Just as you would be a father of justice and mercy to your own children, opting for heavy emphasis on mercy, so too is our (yours and mine) Father.
From my signature line:
(o.k., actually, I am quoting God... hope He doesn't mind...)
Ezek 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.
Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Jer 7:5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, ...
My primary argument is to the Chrsitain who believes in hell.
For the person who says that quote, I say, God does that to. Assuming the Jewish Scriptures are correct.
If Christianity were correct, it would be the picture of a loving God.
I didn't contest that.
I just don't think Dad requires that I torture and murder him as a precondition to him forgiving me.
Thank you for your post.
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Martin
Senior Veteran
ATAT,
Before time began, God decreed that rebellion against Him would result in expulsion from His presence and that for forgiveness for sin there is the requirement of a perfect sacrifice (the spilling of blood, the giving of a life). Satan knows this, because he is in the position of having rebelled against God himself by trying to be God himself.
You ask "Who says God just can't forgive us?" . Well Satan does.
God cannot just "forgive" everyone and accept them back into His kingdom. Satan would be the first to go to God and say: "You cannot do that, you have decreed that all who rebel against you must be excluded from your presence and there must be a perfect, spotless sacrifice for sin" - and he'd be right! God cannot go against His own word. If He were just to forgive everyone He would also have to forgive Satan and allow him back into His kingdom.
Even though God warned mankind not to rebel and what the consequences would be, mankind has, regretably, put itself in the position of rebelling against God. The consequence of this must be exclusion from His presence without a perfect sacrifice. He cannot do otherwise. To do so would be to pollute God himself! If you take a glass of milk and drop just one small drop of ink into it. The milk is no longer pure, no matter how pure it nay look.
Further, the act of God forgiving us is only half of the transaction. There is a need for us to complete the transaction by offering a sacrifice. Now what sacrifice is acceptable? Logic tells me that an animal sacrifice cannot be good enough and if you continue to apply logic, I'm drawn to the conclusion that the closest thing I can offer to God as a sacrifice would be my own life. However, my own life is a sinful life, so how worthy is the sacrifice of my life to a Holy God? Of my own desires and effort, there is no way I can offer a perfect sacrifice, so there would seem to be no way I can be reconciled to God. God knows this, and so came in the person of His only begotten Son to provide the sacrifice.
Neither you, nor I, truly know what Hell (total exclusion from the presence of God) will be like. However, when Jesus tells me what it will be like - I will believe Him. In Matthew's gospel Jesus is quoted as saying that it is "the eternal fire" and also as being "the fiery hell" (Matthew 18) it would also seem to be a place of great pain as He describes that "in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". I can accept those definitions of hell.
Finally, I totally reject your picture of God as a child abuser .. to me He is a loving heavenly Father whom I have come to know and love. Furthermore, I know He loves me and He blesses me in many abundant ways. He weeps over the pain of the world and everyone in it. He warned mankind of the consequences of rebellion and having transgressed, He CANNOT go back on His own word (otherwise He would not be God). Even so, His love for us is so deep that He would offer himself as a sacrifice so fulfilling all His own requirements. I cannot conceive of any greater act of love!
Even though the perfect sacrifice was offered, it is insufficient to restore you to God. You must accept the sacrifice for your own rebellion. Not to do so, still leaves you in your rebellious state and subject to its consequences....
Before time began, God decreed that rebellion against Him would result in expulsion from His presence and that for forgiveness for sin there is the requirement of a perfect sacrifice (the spilling of blood, the giving of a life). Satan knows this, because he is in the position of having rebelled against God himself by trying to be God himself.
You ask "Who says God just can't forgive us?" . Well Satan does.
God cannot just "forgive" everyone and accept them back into His kingdom. Satan would be the first to go to God and say: "You cannot do that, you have decreed that all who rebel against you must be excluded from your presence and there must be a perfect, spotless sacrifice for sin" - and he'd be right! God cannot go against His own word. If He were just to forgive everyone He would also have to forgive Satan and allow him back into His kingdom.
Even though God warned mankind not to rebel and what the consequences would be, mankind has, regretably, put itself in the position of rebelling against God. The consequence of this must be exclusion from His presence without a perfect sacrifice. He cannot do otherwise. To do so would be to pollute God himself! If you take a glass of milk and drop just one small drop of ink into it. The milk is no longer pure, no matter how pure it nay look.
Further, the act of God forgiving us is only half of the transaction. There is a need for us to complete the transaction by offering a sacrifice. Now what sacrifice is acceptable? Logic tells me that an animal sacrifice cannot be good enough and if you continue to apply logic, I'm drawn to the conclusion that the closest thing I can offer to God as a sacrifice would be my own life. However, my own life is a sinful life, so how worthy is the sacrifice of my life to a Holy God? Of my own desires and effort, there is no way I can offer a perfect sacrifice, so there would seem to be no way I can be reconciled to God. God knows this, and so came in the person of His only begotten Son to provide the sacrifice.
Neither you, nor I, truly know what Hell (total exclusion from the presence of God) will be like. However, when Jesus tells me what it will be like - I will believe Him. In Matthew's gospel Jesus is quoted as saying that it is "the eternal fire" and also as being "the fiery hell" (Matthew 18) it would also seem to be a place of great pain as He describes that "in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". I can accept those definitions of hell.
Finally, I totally reject your picture of God as a child abuser .. to me He is a loving heavenly Father whom I have come to know and love. Furthermore, I know He loves me and He blesses me in many abundant ways. He weeps over the pain of the world and everyone in it. He warned mankind of the consequences of rebellion and having transgressed, He CANNOT go back on His own word (otherwise He would not be God). Even so, His love for us is so deep that He would offer himself as a sacrifice so fulfilling all His own requirements. I cannot conceive of any greater act of love!
Even though the perfect sacrifice was offered, it is insufficient to restore you to God. You must accept the sacrifice for your own rebellion. Not to do so, still leaves you in your rebellious state and subject to its consequences....
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Hi ATAT-
Christians sometimes interpret the Scriptures for themselves and make their own churches. This hurts the Christian message and is in no doubt, a product of diabolical deceit. Its a shame really.
I prayed with some American Indians once. They prayed to the Great Spirit. The Chuch teaches that those that do not KNOW Christ, but live righteous lives as best they know, can be saved. Only misguided fundamentalist Christians think that if you don't hear the name Jesus then you have no shot at being saved. I think God is a bit more merciful than that, as does the Church.
Well, Hell is eternal. Flames are a symbol of the self-inflicted pain at being separated from the source of goodness, God. Just as "streets of gold" are symbols for Heaven being a good place. I don't want you to get the wrong idea that Hell isn't painful or eternal, it is both, but there is no active torture going on. God doesn't want anyone to choose that over living with Him forever, but sadly, some people, being free, can desire that for themselves. Im sure it breaks His heart, but make no mistake, the doors of Hell are locked from the inside.
Christians sometimes interpret the Scriptures for themselves and make their own churches. This hurts the Christian message and is in no doubt, a product of diabolical deceit. Its a shame really.
I prayed with some American Indians once. They prayed to the Great Spirit. The Chuch teaches that those that do not KNOW Christ, but live righteous lives as best they know, can be saved. Only misguided fundamentalist Christians think that if you don't hear the name Jesus then you have no shot at being saved. I think God is a bit more merciful than that, as does the Church.
Well, Hell is eternal. Flames are a symbol of the self-inflicted pain at being separated from the source of goodness, God. Just as "streets of gold" are symbols for Heaven being a good place. I don't want you to get the wrong idea that Hell isn't painful or eternal, it is both, but there is no active torture going on. God doesn't want anyone to choose that over living with Him forever, but sadly, some people, being free, can desire that for themselves. Im sure it breaks His heart, but make no mistake, the doors of Hell are locked from the inside.
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ATAT- God is so merciful that he gives us what we ask for - when people deny God, God gives them an eternity separated from him (hell). No fire. No torture. Just separation. If God were the "abusive father" you mention, he would simply snuff out all those who failed to accept him. But He loves us too much to do that!
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I'm in the middle of a couple of debates, back soon.
Anyone want to come watch, let me know at
ATAT8181@yahoo.com
I checked out your web site, and have some thoughts about it.
I read these wonderful posts, I want to reply to them.
Give me a week ...
Anyone want to come watch, let me know at
ATAT8181@yahoo.com
I checked out your web site, and have some thoughts about it.
I read these wonderful posts, I want to reply to them.
Give me a week ...
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It is my opinion that if one never heard of Jesus/ Yeshua, he would be judged by his heart. Because God knows us all inside and out. To me that is why he has not returned, because the whole world has not had the opportunity to hear his words. But that is rapidly changing.
So the heart of Indians etc...and others would be judged. The Judge of Judges is wiser than all.
In Christ
ILJ
So the heart of Indians etc...and others would be judged. The Judge of Judges is wiser than all.
In Christ
ILJ
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