Standing Up
On and on
EXACTLY!! But as usual MEN know better in their own heads then their OWN HEAD (which is Christ)
Ahh, Golgotha was revelation, the place of the skull, renewing the mind
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the Pope and the Papacy
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Ahh, Golgotha was revelation, the place of the skull, renewing the mind
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In that case, I appeal to Caesar!EXACTLY!! But as usual MEN know better in their own heads then their OWN HEAD (which is Christ)
Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die.
But if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice in the Heaven saying "now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the one-accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night.
[John 5:45]
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Fireinfolding
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Fireinfolding
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In that case, I appeal to Caesar!
Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die.
But if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice in the Heaven saying "now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the one-accusing them in sight of the God of us day and night.
[John 5:45]
A miracle, a post without a link to another converstion
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Standing Up
On and on
Gives new meaning to Reve 14:11/19:3
http://www.christianforums.com/t7486696/
The Roman Catholic church is not mystery babylon
Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Luke 16:24,26]
Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
[Luke 19:41,44]
And there you thought it had all been fulfilled (I guess)
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OK.....since thou insistA miracle, a post without a link to another converstion
http://www.christianforums.com/t7453406/
I appeal to Caesar! Acts 25:11
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Fireinfolding
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Ahh, Golgotha was revelation, the place of the skull, renewing the mind
We need a new brain, mind of Christ is perfect, God had our best interest at heart long before our brains had the capacity to catch on to it huh?
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In MacArthur's interpretation of scripture?
Then you reject Calvinism?
Why would I want to prove that the Catholic Church isn't using scripture?
Whose plumb line? MacArthur sets his own.
Hebrews says nothing against the priesthood in Jesus' Church.
The ancient Church does not worship saints in the manner which scripture condemns.
At least you agree that MacArthur is wrong.
Not Semantics. Entirely different. Semantics works only for those that do not understand.
Baptism? The quotes were about more than the absolute need for baptism. Abraham wasn't baptized was he? Keep with what he said.
He said it, it is your responsibility to prove it not mine to disprove it.
Tetzel died in 1519, what does that have to do with what the CC teaches today. MacArthur is not talking about the past, he is talking in the present tense. He is totally wrong.
A lie.
The Pope worships the head of the Church, Jesus Christ. Respect is shown for the position, not the man occupying it.
He did not say anything truthful about the Catholic Church and he can only give his interpretation of scripture, which some of it was never taught until
a few hundred years ago.
He tells his congregation lies about children of God. Children who are loving and faithful to their lord Jesus Christ. He will have to answer for the lies which he tells. He will have to answer for the harm which he does to his sheep by sending them out believing in his lies.
He can't use scripture to prove any of what he has said because he doesn't even understand what the Catholic Church teaches.
Each item which we have brought up, showing Catholic beliefs, you have highlighted the part which you believe proves your point. We have then highlighted from the same item the part that you ignore, showing what the CC teaches.
The thing is, it is not what you believe the Church teaches, it is what the Church really teaches and as long as you only see what you want to see, you will continue to believe a false concept.
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Fireinfolding
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Noooooooo
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Gotcha! Sorry for any confusion.
Sure, the devil would love for everyone to think they get a second chance.
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Fireinfolding
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Originally Posted by Stryder06That's all well and good, but it doesn't answer why the office of the priest requires one to be celibate. It should be on a case by case basis. In other words, if you want to marry, fine. If you don't, fine. But it shouldn't be, if you want to marry, fine, but you can't be a Priest.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7485260/
Bishop to Defend Celibacy in Debate 2 Days Before Pope's Arrival
Bishop Malcolm McMahon of Nottingham will defend the Churchs teaching on celibacy at a major debate in London two days before the Popes visit.
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Originally Posted by Standing Up
So we have a new and improved infallible teaching that replaces the older, defective infallible teaching from the infallible church that says its dogmas are directly communicated to and it's magesterium infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, so that it's teachings are infallible divine truth..
Gotcha!
Either the Holy Spirit was confused in the earlier teachings or Rome was.
You be the judge.
Is it fair to say that Benedict's vision is not what the earlier RC was? Have they repented and recanted, chopping at the root of their tree?
So we have a new and improved infallible teaching that replaces the older, defective infallible teaching from the infallible church that says its dogmas are directly communicated to and it's magesterium infallibly led by the Holy Spirit, so that it's teachings are infallible divine truth..
Gotcha!
Either the Holy Spirit was confused in the earlier teachings or Rome was.
You be the judge.
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Rapture....Repent now, while there is still time!Wait, are we talking about the rapture now?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7485192/#post55373024
The "Rapture" potentially VERY CLOSE!! ~~ A View of Scripture and Current Events.
Rapture Index 172
Rapture Index above 160: Fasten your seat belts
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Do we now?
Augustine believed the canon of Scripture to contain the Greek OT canon also known today as the deuterocanonicals or "Apocrypha"
"The whole canon of the Scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called `of Solomon' because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).
Augustine Believed in Authoritative Tradition
"[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).
"But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, 'that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to Apostolic Tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,' is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation" (ibid., 5:26[37]).
"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church" (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).
Augustine believed in Baptismal Regeneration and Grace
"It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, `Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents' or `by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,' but, `Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.' The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]). "Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted" (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).
Augustine Believed Baptism was Necessary for Salvation
"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens, on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]). "[According to] Apostolic Tradition . . . the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).
However, he did allow for exceptions--what he called baptism of desire or blood(martyrdom).
"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, `Today you shall be with me in paradise' [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).
Augustine Believed in the Real Presence
"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own Body, he said, 'This is my Body' [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]). "I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's Table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the Blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).
"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice is the Blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).
Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the Body of Christ and the chalice is the Blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).
"In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated. For if sacraments had not a likeness to those things of which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all; and they generally take the names of those same things by reason of this likeness" (Letters 98:9 [A.D. 412]).
"For when he says in another book, which is called Ecclesiastes, 'There is no good for a man except that he should eat and drink' [Eccl. 2:24], what can he be more credibly understood to say [prophetically] than what belongs to the participation of this table which the Mediator of the New Testament himself, the priest after the order of Melchizedek, furnishes with his own body and blood? For that sacrifice has succeeded all the sacrifices of the Old Testament, which were slain as a shadow of what was to come. . . . Because, instead of all these sacrifices and oblations, his body is offered and is served up to the partakers of it" (The City of God 17:20 [A.D. 419]).
Augustine Believed in the Necessity of the Lord's Supper for Salvation
"[According to] Apostolic Tradition . . . the Churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).
Augustine Believed in Purgatory and Praying for the Departed
"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]). "We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).
Augustine Believed In the Communion of Saints and Saintly Intercession
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
"At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
"For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ, whether by his sacraments or by the prayers or relics of his saints . . . The miracle which was wrought at Milan when I was there. . . [and when people] had gathered to the bodies of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius, which had long lain concealed and unknown but where now made known to the bishop Ambrose in a dream and discovered by him" (City of God 22:8 [A.D. 419]).
This last quote showed that Augustine believed there was something special about the relics of the saints. Show me a Protestant who believes that!
Augustine Believed in the Authority of the Church
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard" (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).
"If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel, what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, 'I do not believe'? Indeed, I would not believe in the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation' 5:6).
See also the section on Purgatory whence Augustine claims belief in Purgatory would be proper if even only based on the teaching of the Church. Augustine's belief in the authority of the church shows that he did not teach sola scriptura.
Continued
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Trento
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http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htmAugustine Believed in Apostolic Succession
http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htmAugustine Believed Mary To Be Ever Virgin
"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, 'Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.' Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]).
"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church's] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15-17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called 'Catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called 'The Foundation' 4:5 [A.D. 397]).
http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htmAugustine Believed in the Possibility of Falling from Grace"I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said." (On The Gift Of Perseverance)
http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htmAugustine Believed in the Sacrament of Penance"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).
"I realize what the incontinent can say: . . . that if a man, accusing his wife of adultery, kills her, this sin, since it is finished and does not perdure in him [i.e., since he does not keep committing it], if it is committed by a catechumen, is absolved in baptism, and if it is done by one who is baptized, it is healed by penance and reconciliation" (Adulterous Marriages 2:16:16 [A.D. 419]).
Augustine's belief in penance (and the necessity of baptism and the Eucharist) puts a death knell in the opinion that he taught sola fide. http://www.willcoxson.net/faith/augprot.htmAugustine Believed Mary To Be Ever Virgin
Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin." (Sermon 186) "Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband" (Heresies 56).
Augustine On Mary's Sinlessness/Sinfulness
We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. (On Nature and Grace, XXXVI)
Augustine does not come out and say whether he thinks Mary is sinless. Out of "honour to the Lord" he is silent about whether Mary was sinful or sinless. Augustine shows some restraint which would be good to remember and to emulate
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Wait, are we talking about the rapture now?
While I do not hold to the rapture theory, obviously it is not a "second chance", as with the false doctrine of purgatory.
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