the Pope and the Papacy

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

Wasnt Peter married?

Stryder06 · Aug 5, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Wasnt Peter married?

Indeed he was. That was the other thing that I was considering. I don't see a problem with a man choosing to remain celibate, but I don't understand why an office has to be one of celibacy, and anyone who wants to be a priest must become celibate.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 5, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Wasnt Peter married?

Stryder06 said:
Indeed he was. That was the other thing that I was considering. I don't see a problem with a man choosing to remain celibate, but I don't understand why an office has to be one of celibacy, and anyone who wants to be a priest must become celibate.

That would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7372532-6/#post51902769
Peter Was Married

Sargent_Pepper · Aug 5, 2010

Standing Up said:
From the start of this thread, you've been asked to provide the versions. You refused to do so. So, the cause of confusion isn't "out there", but, well, you know.

You're defending vapors and then accusing others of blowing hot air, while refusing to sculpt the ice yourself.

Exactly. Specific issues have been presented and the poster spits out dogmatic cliched claims, totally avoiding the issues raised and nothing more.

It is pointless to expend any time and effort on such intellectual dishonesty as that.

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Indeed he was. That was the other thing that I was considering. I don't see a problem with a man choosing to remain celibate, but I don't understand why an office has to be one of celibacy, and anyone who wants to be a priest must become celibate.

Paul says its sorta like a gift, like how Jesus says he that is able to receive it let him receive it but each man has his own. I dont see how marraige or cellibacy can be mandated. Peter was married (supposedly "a pope" type deal) and Paul was not. If we look at these two apostles they are different in respect to marraige.

I dont understand how some could forbid a man to marry even in respect to his service to Christ. Though I understand they say, "Oh we dont forbid it" but howso?

My head spins sometimes ^_^

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
That would make for an interesting thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7372532-6/#post51902769
Peter Was Married

Every other post from you supposedly makes for an interesting thread, you are like a walking billboard for ten thousand threads a day

Im not a multi tasker ^_^

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 5, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Paul says its sorta like a gift, like how Jesus says he that is able to receive it let him receive it but each man has his own. I dont see how marraige or cellibacy can be mandated. Peter was married (supposedly "a pope" type deal) and Paul was not. If we look at these two apostles they are different in respect to marraige.

I dont understand how some could forbid a man to marry even in respect to his service to Christ. Though I understand they say, "Oh we dont forbid it" but howso?

My head spins sometimes

Me wonders if a Cardinal can become Pope if he is married? Have there been married Popes before?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7430430/
Non-RC views of election of Pope and smoke

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Me wonders if a Cardinal can become Pope if he is married? Have there been married Popes before?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7430430/
Non-RC views of election of Pope and smoke

JacktheCatholic · Aug 5, 2010

Stryder06 said:
I know I may be coming in late here, but I was thinking about this yesterday. Why exactly is celibacy attached to the office of priest? I don't see how a celibate man would be any more or less fit to serve.

One answer:

The Dignity of Celibacy and Marriage

Most Catholics marry, and all Catholics are taught to venerate marriage as a holy institutiona sacrament, an action of God upon our souls; one of the holiest things we encounter in this life.

In fact, it is precisely the holiness of marriage that makes celibacy precious; for only what is good and holy in itself can be given up for God as a sacrifice. Just as fasting presupposes the goodness of food, celibacy presupposes the goodness of marriage. To despise celibacy, therefore, is to undermine marriage itselfas the early Fathers pointed out.

Celibacy is also a life-affirming institution. In the Old Testament, where celibacy was almost unknown, the childless were often despised by others and themselves; only through children, it was felt, did one acquire value. By renouncing marriage, the celibate affirms the intrinsic value of each human life in itself, regardless of offspring.

Finally, celibacy is an eschatological sign to the Church, a living-out in the present of the universal celibacy of heaven: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

Source: Celibacy and the Priesthood

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 5, 2010

Fireinfolding said:

Gives new meaning to Reve 14:11/19:3

http://www.christianforums.com/t7486696/
The Roman Catholic church is not mystery babylon

Revelation 14:11 And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Luke 16:24,26]

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".
[Luke 19:41,44]

Trento · Aug 5, 2010

Jesus is clearly speaking here of those who live singly and chastely for the sake of the kingdom of God. As the Catholic commentary in the Douay Rheims Bible notes about this verse: “There are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs, for the kingdom of heaven...This text is not to be taken in the literal sense; but means, that there are such, who have taken a firm and commendable resolution of leading a single and chaste life, in order to serve God in a more perfect state than those who marry: as St. Paul clearly shows. 1 Cor. 7. 37, 38.”[/font]

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

Any scriptures on priesthood of believers (or popes for that matter) on the marraige deal? ^_^

JacktheCatholic · Aug 5, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Me wonders if a Cardinal can become Pope if he is married? Have there been married Popes before?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7430430/
Non-RC views of election of Pope and smoke

Check it out: List of sexually active popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Married before receiving Holy Orders
It was within canon law, and still is, for priests to have once been married before receiving Holy Orders. In the Eastern Rite branches of the Catholic Church, it is within canon law to be a priest and married (but one may not marry after ordination).

Saint Peter (Simon Peter), whose mother-in-law is mentioned in the Bible as having been miraculously healed (Matthew 8:14-15, Luke 4:38, Mark 1:29-31). According to Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, III, vi, ed. Dindorf, II, 276), Peter was married and had children and his wife suffered martyrdom. In some legends dating from at least the 6th century, Peter's daughter is called Petronilla.[2][3] Pope Clement I wrote: "For Peter and Philip begat children; [..] When the blessed Peter saw his own wife led out to die, he rejoiced because of her summons and her return home, and called to her very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, and saying, 'Remember the Lord.' Such was the marriage of the blessed, and their perfect disposition toward those dearest to them."[4]

Pope Siricius (384399), where tradition suggests that he left his wife and children in order to become pope. The number of Siricius' children is unknown. Wrote a decree in 385, stating that priests should stop cohabiting with their wives.

Pope Felix III (483492) was a widower with two children when he was elected to succeed Pope Simplicius in 483. It is said that he was the great-great-grandfather of Gregory the Great.

Pope St. Hormisdas (514523) was married and widowed before ordination. He was the father of Pope St. Silverius.[5]

Pope Silverius (536537) may have been married to a woman called Antonia. However this remains debated by historians.

Pope Agatho or Pope Saint Agatho (678681) was married for 20 years as a layman with one daughter, before in maturity he followed a call to God and with his wifes blessing became a monk at Saint Hermes monastery in Palermo. It is thought his wife entered a convent.

Pope Adrian II (867872) was married to a woman called Stephania, before taking orders, and had a daughter.[6] His wife and daughter were still living when he was selected to be pope and resided with him in the Lateran Palace. His daughter was carried off, raped, and murdered by former antipope Anastasius's brother, Eleutherius. Her mother was also killed by Eleutherius.

Pope John XVII (1003) was married before his election to the papacy and had three sons, who all became priests.[7]

Pope Clement IV (12651268) was married, before taking holy orders, and had two daughters.[8]

Pope Honorius IV (12851287) was married before he took the Holy Orders and had at least two sons. He entered the clergy after his wife died, the last pope to have been married.[9]

Standing Up · Aug 5, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Indeed he was. That was the other thing that I was considering. I don't see a problem with a man choosing to remain celibate, but I don't understand why an office has to be one of celibacy, and anyone who wants to be a priest must become celibate.

Yep. Obviously it wasn't a criteria of Christ in picking Peter.

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

Paul might say he wished all men be as him but he also says each man has his gift, Peter was MARRIED Paul was not.

Its not for men to dictate

Sargent_Pepper · Aug 5, 2010

Originally Posted by Sargent_Pepper

Yeah, but we can be sure that he would be arguing strongly against those who would rob God of His Glory in not only bringing people to Christ but keeping them in Christ without fail. He might even call them heretics.

Standing Up said:
Well, that's kind of what I'm saying. It seems the poor man recognized the problems, even recanted, and changed his written opinion, yet couldn't quite seem to make the jump.

Let the reader decide? How unRoman Catholic he seemed to be. But it simply wasn't the right time is all we may conclude.

For the few things that Augustine was off on, he was not dogmatic on them, nor did he ever go so far as to declare that they were necessary for salvation to believe. Not even in his writings on predestination and perseverance of the saints did Augustine make any claim that they were dogmas necessary for salvation.

We know that Augustine would be vehemently opposing the vast amount of Roman Catholic teachings and practices because he already has in hiw works against Pelagius and the semi-pelagians, Gnostics, Montanists and other heretical groups.

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

Standing Up said:
Yep. Obviously it wasn't a criteria of Christ in picking Peter.

EXACTLY!! But as usual MEN know better in their own heads then their OWN HEAD (which is Christ)

^_^

Fireinfolding · Aug 5, 2010

JacktheCatholic said:
Check it out: List of sexually active popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/list]

Sexually active or married? ^_^

Standing Up · Aug 5, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
Any scriptures on priesthood of believers (or popes for that matter) on the marraige deal?

There's a few, mainly in 1 Cor.

And this 1 Tim. 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Hence the connection with forced and it being said, not forced, but if you want to be a priest ...

Speaking of priest, we know from scripture and very early literature (didache, hermas, Polycarp), there was no such office at first. But rather the priesthood of believers, as you say.

Sargent_Pepper · Aug 5, 2010

JacktheCatholic said:
Check it out: List of sexually active popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[/list]

Wikipedia left out a lot of "sexually active" popes. In particular ones that were supposed to be celibate, but were running brothels out of papal structures in Rome and the countryside.

Does Rodrigo Borgia ring a bell?

And he was just following the long "tradition" of criminal popes.

the Pope and the Papacy

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