the Pope and the Papacy

JesusFreak78 said:

I don't have a problem with scriptures. I highly respect the bible and I always put God's word (the bible) before my own opinion.

God's blood washed us free from all our since, past, present and future sins because Jesus' death on the cross was perfect and it only needed to be done once.

Romans 6:9-11
9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him.
10 For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
11 So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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God uses suffering to purify the soul and to detach it from created things. Scripture more than once repeats the comparison: as gold or silver is purified by fire, so also the soul of the just is purified by tribulation (Ps. 66,10; Prov. 12,3; Wis. 3,6, EccL 2,5; Pet. 1,2).






After Jesus "was put to death in the flesh" (1st Peter 3:18), he "descended into the lower parts of the earth [sheol]" (Ephesians 4:10) to "preach to the spirits in prison" (1st Peter 3:19), namely the righteous men whose knees "bow...under the earth" (Phillipians 2:10) such that the "gospel was preached even to the dead" (1st Peter 4:6). Fulfilling the promise "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God...all who are in the tombs will hear" (John 5:25.28). Afterword, regarding these righteous men of sheol, "when [Jesus] ascended on high he led a host of captives" (Ephesians 4:8) immediately making Jesus the "firstborn of the dead." (Collosians 1:17).
But what happened to sheol after this? Some say it disappeared. But what does Scripture say? Jesus says "I hold the keys to death and the netherworld [sheol]" (Revelations 1:18 - sheol in Greek is hades). Jesus is not holding the keys to something that no longer exists, but to something that still exists. But if it still exists, what is it for? Do any souls still go to sheol even after Jesus' resurrection? If so, are any of these souls righteous?
In Revelation 20:4, we see the superlatively righteous as coming to life during the first resurrection: "the souls of those who had been beheaded...they came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years." We are also told that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over." These remaining people are said to come from sheol: "then Death and Hades [sheol] gave up the dead in them" (Revelation 20:13). This then answers a previous question; there are indeed souls that still go to sheol even after Jesus' resurrection.
Now, some might claim that this "hades" or "sheol" of Revelation 20:13 is actually hell itself. However, Revelation 20:14 states "Then Death and Hades were thrown in the lake of fire [Hell]." This proves that this sheol is not the same thing as hell itself. If it were, then Revelation 20:14 would be indicating that Hell was being thrown into Hell; a proposition which makes no sense. However, some say that absolutely all the souls of this second resurrection from sheol go to Hell. But what does Scripture say of these people? "If any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Rev 20:15). Now, (Ephesians 4:9) in saying "if any one," what does it mean but that some names were indeed found in the book of life.
What does it mean to say "if any one" if not to say that there are some whose name's were indeed in the book of life? When Paul says "If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Thus, those whose names were in the book of life did not go to Hell! These remaining people were among the saved! It thus holds ipso facto that there is a place, neither heaven nor hell, which does indeed detain some number of righteous souls before entrance into heaven.

Yarddog said:

Thanks.

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And thank you

JesusFreak78 said:

So Jesus dying for on the cross isn't good enough for you? He's blood wasn't good enough for you to cleanse all the sins for the people He died for?

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Luke.12

[37] Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them.
[38] If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants!
[39] But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into.
[40] You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour."
[41] Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
[42] And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
[43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[45] But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.

I know where that servent is going.

[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

100 years or more in Purgatory?

[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

2 weeks in Purgatory

ebia said:

For pity's sake. If the RCC teaches something you disagree with you want to condemn it for doing so, if it doesn't you want to condemn it for not doing so. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

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Dude, just asking for 3 examples from the video. Instead folks have ranted against the man. Thanks for doing the same.

Originally Posted by ebia For pity's sake. If the RCC teaches something you disagree with you want to condemn it for doing so, if it doesn't you want to condemn it for not doing so. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

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Standing Up said:

Dude, just asking for 3 examples from the video. Instead folks have ranted against the man. Thanks for doing the same.

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Seems like a reasonable request to me

http://www.christianforums.com/t6870602-88/#post43628407

Trento said:

God uses suffering to purify the soul and to detach it from created things. Scripture more than once repeats the comparison: as gold or silver is purified by fire, so also the soul of the just is purified by tribulation (Ps. 66,10; Prov. 12,3; Wis. 3,6, EccL 2,5; Pet. 1,2).






After Jesus "was put to death in the flesh" (1st Peter 3:18), he "descended into the lower parts of the earth [sheol]" (Ephesians 4:10) to "preach to the spirits in prison" (1st Peter 3:19), namely the righteous men whose knees "bow...under the earth" (Phillipians 2:10) such that the "gospel was preached even to the dead" (1st Peter 4:6). Fulfilling the promise "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God...all who are in the tombs will hear" (John 5:25.28). Afterword, regarding these righteous men of sheol, "when [Jesus] ascended on high he led a host of captives" (Ephesians 4:8) immediately making Jesus the "firstborn of the dead." (Collosians 1:17).
But what happened to sheol after this? Some say it disappeared. But what does Scripture say? Jesus says "I hold the keys to death and the netherworld [sheol]" (Revelations 1:18 - sheol in Greek is hades). Jesus is not holding the keys to something that no longer exists, but to something that still exists. But if it still exists, what is it for? Do any souls still go to sheol even after Jesus' resurrection? If so, are any of these souls righteous?
In Revelation 20:4, we see the superlatively righteous as coming to life during the first resurrection: "the souls of those who had been beheaded...they came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years." We are also told that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over." These remaining people are said to come from sheol: "then Death and Hades [sheol] gave up the dead in them" (Revelation 20:13). This then answers a previous question; there are indeed souls that still go to sheol even after Jesus' resurrection.
Now, some might claim that this "hades" or "sheol" of Revelation 20:13 is actually hell itself. However, Revelation 20:14 states "Then Death and Hades were thrown in the lake of fire [Hell]." This proves that this sheol is not the same thing as hell itself. If it were, then Revelation 20:14 would be indicating that Hell was being thrown into Hell; a proposition which makes no sense. However, some say that absolutely all the souls of this second resurrection from sheol go to Hell. But what does Scripture say of these people? "If any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Rev 20:15). Now, (Ephesians 4:9) in saying "if any one," what does it mean but that some names were indeed found in the book of life.
What does it mean to say "if any one" if not to say that there are some whose name's were indeed in the book of life? When Paul says "If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Thus, those whose names were in the book of life did not go to Hell! These remaining people were among the saved! It thus holds ipso facto that there is a place, neither heaven nor hell, which does indeed detain some number of righteous souls before entrance into heaven.

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I'd actually agree with that, except for the understanding of who it is being spoken of (superlative righteous for example).

Saved, except as though through fire, said Paul, of some.

Trento said:

Luke.12

[37] Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes; truly, I say to you, he will gird himself and have them sit at table, and he will come and serve them.
[38] If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those servants!
[39] But know this, that if the householder had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into.
[40] You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour."
[41] Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"
[42] And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
[43] Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.
[44] Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
[45] But if that servant says to himself, `My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
[46] the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.

I know where that servent is going.

[47] And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

100 years or more in Purgatory?

[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

2 weeks in Purgatory

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Awesome! That's the upcoming Sunday's gospel reading!

Trento said:

*snip*

Luke.12
[48] But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.
Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

2 weeks in Purgatory

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AMEN!

Hopefully we won't receive all 7 blows in Revelation 15 ehehe....

Luke 12:48 The one yet no knowing doing yet worthy of stripes/blows/plhgwn <4127> shall be being smitten few.
To every yet to whom was given much shall be being sought beside of him and to whom they-committed much more exceedingly they shall be asking him.

Reve 15:1 And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous.
Messengers, seven, having blows/stripes/plhgaV <4127>, seven, the last, that in them is finished the fury of the God.

Standing Up said:

Dude, just asking for 3 examples from the video. Instead folks have ranted against the man. Thanks for doing the same.

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1.) Pugatory is a safety net, or a second chance.

2.) Catholics resacrifice Jesus at mass.

3.) Forced celibacy.

There you go, three anti-Catholic fallacies advanced by John Macarthur.

What you need to know is, that as Catholics, we're always interested in the source. In this case, the source, as well as his admirers have obstinately misrepresented the teachings of the Catholic Church.

So, what are we to think?

If J. Mac is really trying to evangelize us, do you think blatant misrepresentations of our faith are going to sway us? It might work on more uneducated Catholics, but to this Catholic, J. Mac is having a hard time dwelling in the Truth.

And this is coming from God's own elect.

For me, the benefit of this thread, is that lines have been drawn. I can see more clearly, in the great world of ecumenicism, just where I should go, and where I should not. J. Mac and anyone has supported his novel teachings on the Catholic Church have lost any inkling of credibility in my mind. They've simply been reduced to anti-Catholic spin machines.

I know it's best to address the issue and not the person, but in this case, when the issues raised are so grossly misrepresented, one can only consider the source from whence they came, and in my mind, they've lost all legitimacy.

Unfortunately, for me, the Church wants us to maintain ecumenical dialogue, but in this case it's sadly impossible. Besides, I don't think I have the grace or gumption to continue a conversation with people who think I'm lying, deceived or a minion of Satan.

simonthezealot said:

I bet this is the 5th time you asked for this, and NOTHING.

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I've reoutlined three of the most glaring errors, all which have been previously addressed.

tadoflamb said:

1.) Pugatory is a safety net, or a second chance.

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Of the billion or so RC, if the world ended today, what percentage do you think would go directly into God's presence, rather than purgatory?

2.) Catholics resacrifice Jesus at mass.

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That's a tough one.

3.) Forced celibacy. -snip-

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It's a free choice to be a priest, hence not forced? Peter was married, but then again, he wasn't a priest.

It's interesting that these issues are rather related.

tadoflamb said:

1.) Pugatory is a safety net, or a second chance.

2.) Catholics resacrifice Jesus at mass.

3.) Forced celibacy.

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Hmmm. *wish I had a smiley with a pensive look

That is not RCC. Must be some other church.

Standing Up said:

Dude, just asking for 3 examples from the video. Instead folks have ranted against the man. Thanks for doing the same.

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Haven't been reading your request. 3 examples of what?

I didn't see anything that he said that was truthful.

2.) Catholics resacrifice Jesus at mass.

JacktheCatholic said:

Hmmm. *wish I had a smiley with a pensive look

That is not RCC. Must be some other church.

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Hmmm. What about the MJ church that celebrates the Sabbath and Passover differently than do the more Apostolic EO/RCC/Lutheran churhes

http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846-39/
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

Exodus 12:29 And is becoming mid/02677 chetsiy of the night and YHVH smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.
[Matt 12:5,6]

Matt 25:5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of middle yet of night a cry has occured "behold! the Bridegroom. Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him".
[Exodus 12:29]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMVqIISyp60

Standing Up said:

Of the billion or so RC, if the world ended today, what percentage do you think would go directly into God's presence, rather than purgatory?

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If the world ended today, those who belong to Christ will have already been purified and before God.
1 Cor. 15:

22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.

Yarddog said:

If the world ended today, those who belong to Christ will have already been purified and before God.
1 Cor. 15:

22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.

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I was under the assumption that the RCs were Amills and the first age/world was destroyed at Armegeddon? Now I am confused

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"
[Daniel 12/1 Corin 15:23/Revelation 15:1]

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End/teloV <5056>

Reve 15:1 And I saw another Sign in the Heaven, great and marvelous.
Messengers seven, having stripes/blows seven, the last, that in them is-finished/etelesqh <5055> (5681) the Fury/qumoV <2372> of the God

Yarddog said:

If the world ended today, those who belong to Christ will have already been purified and before God.
1 Cor. 15:

22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life,
23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ;
24 then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.

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Okay, so purgatory isn't necessary for those who belong to Christ at the last moment. Why is it necessary for the others?

If I have the call to be a priest & I'm married, I'm FORCED out.
My free will in the matter has been cornered for profit.
It was the concern over loss of church property that is partly the motivation for that tradition, or 'rite'.

A sample of some of what MacArthur says about the Catholic Church.

"A false and damning religion"

"In the war on the truth, the most formidable relentless and deceptive enemy has been Roman Catholicism."

"It is an apostate corrupt heretical false Christianity."

"It is a front for the kingdom of Satan. The true church of the lord Jesus Christ has always understood this." (Evidently he doesn't think that the Orthodox Church is part of the true Church either)

"It is a false system, it has a false priesthood, a false source of revelation..."

"It engages in idolatry in the worship of saints and the veneration of angels."

"It conducts a horrific exultation of Mary above Christ and even God."

"It conducts a twisted sacrament of the Mass by which Jesus is sacrificed again and again."

"It offers false forgiveness through the confessional."

"It calls for the uselessness of infant baptism..."

"Motivated by money it has invented purgatory. Purgatory is whatmakes the whole system work. Take out purgatory and it's a hard sell to be Catholic. People hang in there because of the deception of purgatory."

"Purgatory is the safety net, when you die you don't go to hell, you go there and get things sorted out, you finally get to heaven if you been a good Catholic."

"Selling indulgences for money, selling forgiveness for money."

"Forced celibacy,"

"The Pope has ursurped the headship of Christ over his Church."

I'm not sure that he said a single item which was truthful. People may have a problem with some of the theology but at least be truthful about what the Church teaches.

There are hundreds or thousands of Calvinistic Baptists which listen to his sermons and he lies to each of them when he stands in the pulpit which only the truth should heard. His congregation deserves better than that.