Welcome Preterists and Futurists! Let's hash it out.

Originally posted by Joj
Are you ever gonna answer my questions as often as I answer yours? 

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I will do so now in this lengthy post.

Originally posted by Joj
It also says there will be no need for one to teach another does it not? Why are we even here if that has been fulfilled?
"God and His people (Christians) currently have intimate fellowship (through prayer & His word),"
Not ALL of us like the word says. Why not? Did God lie?
 The scriptures said they (Israelites) would ALL know Him how do you figure this has happened already?

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Hebrews 8:11
And they shall not teach one another
or say to each other, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

In the old Covenant only priests could teach, for they were the mediators between God and Israel's covenantial law. We also see prophets & kings teaching - but not in the covenantial sense.
It was the priests, prophets, and kings that were chosen to "know" God. The rest of the nation of Israel depended on these personalities to "have a relationship" with God.

Thanks to Christ, ALL of Israel can have a relationship with Him. From the poopsmith (least) to the high priest (greatest).
There is no more need for the priests to teach & direct the masses of Israel of the old covenant.

Originally posted by Joj
Do you really think that what we are living in today is Gods Kingdom here on this earth?

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Yes and No. I believe God's kingdom is a spiritual one. It is not of this earth. However, God's spiritual kingdom exists along side the physical earth. Our bodies reside on earth, but our mind/spirit resides in God's kingdom if we have chosen to accept Jesus as the savior of man.

Revelation 21:22-27 - I saw no temple in the city (New Jerusalem), for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut by day and there will be no night there. People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The New Jerusalem is pictured as existing inside another realm. The other realm is characterized as having unclean things (evil) in it (our physical earth). The New Jerusalem only allows the good to enter into its continuously-open gates. How do unclean things become clean? By the blood of Christ. Once we accept Christ as our savior, our sins are covered. God no longer sees us as unclean. We then enter into the New Kingdom where Christ is our light (spiritual): John 12:46 - I have come as a light into the world, that every one who is believing in me should not remain in the darkness.
Fortunately, this invitation into the New Kingdom is for everyone who accepts (gates area always open).

Parable of the Weeds:
Matthew 13:36-39 - The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom; the weeds are the children of the evil one,

Originally posted by Joj
Where are these guys (Disciples) ruling from today? Where are their subjects?

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They are ruling - spiritually- in the New Jerusalem.

Originally posted by Joj
I ask, what did those scriptures say was the new covenant? You stopped short of posting what they did actually say. Why?

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The scriptures stated that the old covenant between God and Israel was being made obsolete. The new covenant would have God's laws/principles written in our hearts spiritually, not on stone tablets. For the rest of this answer please review the first Q&A above.

Originally posted by Joj
And could you explain how we (gentiles) who were never included in the Old Covenant, (unless we converted to Judaism) could even possibly be entitled to a new covenant since we never had an old one?

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Though the New Covenant is specifically focused on Israel, it is clear that Christians of the present time also stand under its blessings.
1 Cor. 11:2 - In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.
The New Covenant is God’s appointed vehicle for fulfilling the Abrahamic blessings to Israel. But the Abrahamic Covenant also promised universal blessing, so the New Covenant becomes God’s vehicle of salvation for believers since the Cross. To say this is not to say anything more than Jesus did when He declared that "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22).

Originally posted by Joj
"So, what...will the animals and plants live forever, just as humans do?"
Check out the scriptures, I think they say there will be no more death if I recall. See what you can come up with contrary to that.

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I think I answered this in another post. The death spoken of is spiritual death.

Originally posted by Joj
"- What do we eat, what do the animals eat? We can't eat animals, or plants because we'd have to slaughter them."
Well God did say He would provide for all needs in His kingdom. Ever here of mannah?

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That is probably the best answer I've heard for this argument. Supernatural food from God. I suppose as long as nothing dies as our digestive system breaks down the manna, you've answered this question.
What purpose do the animals and plants then serve in the New kingdom?

Originally posted by Joj
"Please, educate me on how this New Kingdom on earth will work. Please be specific."
I think you would believe the bible more than me. Why dont you consult it and save us both time. Just look up kingdom in your concordance and read all about it. It really is quite interesting.

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John 18:36 - Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.’
2 Tim 4:18 - and the Lord shall free me from every evil work, and shall save me to his heavenly kingdom; to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages! Amen.
Mark 14:24 - and he said to them, ‘This is my blood of the new covenant, which for many is being poured out;
2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

Everything I've found states the new Kingdom is a spiritual one.


Hope I answered all of the questions you had in mind.

-A

Originally posted by JesusServant
Read your Bible.  Jesus ate bread, to show he still had physical form, but I'm sure he didn't have to eat.

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Really? You are sure about the fact He didn't have to eat? He could have been hungry...you don't know that.

Originally posted by JesusServant
Have you even read Revelation armothe?

(Revelation 21:23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

Is it so far fetched to not need the sun?

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You don't recognize the sun as the center of our physical universe? Everything revolves around the sun. If you get rid of the sun all 9 planets will fall out of orbit - including earth.

If you get rid of the sun you can kiss all plant life on earth goodbye.

Or do you believe God's light has photosynthetic abilities as well?

Originally posted by JesusServant
I believe that we're more flesh than spirit now, but we'll be more spirit than flesh then, this is JUST MY BELIEF nothing biblical persay.

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We are both flesh and spirit. The apostle Paul constantly writes about the struggles between the flesh and spirit. As a matter of fact, he couldn't wait for the day he could shed his "flesh" to be with God - spiritually.

Romans 8:1 - There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:50 - And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption.

Wow, look at that. We won't have flesh or blood in the New Kingdom either. Another fact for dispensationalists to accept.

-A

PS - ever meditate on where you stand in regards to spiritual death?

Originally posted by armothe

Romans 8:1 - There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:50 - And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption.

Wow, look at that. We won't have flesh or blood in the New Kingdom either. Another fact for dispensationalists to accept.

-A

PS - ever meditate on where you stand in regards to spiritual death?

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Why would we need flesh and blood?  Thomas touched Jesus while he was in his Glorified body did he not?  If he was just spirit how did Thomas feel his wrists/hands?  He had physical form, yet they did not recognize him at first because he looked more like an apparition.  Jesus had to tell them he wasn't a ghost. 

I meditate on all issues, why would I believe in a spiritual death?  From what I can see in the Bible the spirit cannot die, unless of course God spoke it to cease existing.  This is why I dislike when people talk about "slayed in the spirit", that's a terrible term.

Originally posted by parousia70
Well, I can't really help it if, even after I make absolutely clear that I am not attacking you personally by the use of LOL, that you choose to take offence anyway. I can see you want to blame me, but I will not be held responsible for your personal choice.

It appears you are suggesting that I do not get upset when I see people suffering. That I never cry, that I don't have any empathy. What did I ever say to give you that impression?

Are you saying you never laugh?

Are you saying laughter is somehow evil, or to be avoided by the good Christian?

BTW, did you care to comment on the meat of my post?

You asked what my point was, and I attempted to clarify it for you. Did I?

BTW, Happy Birthday!

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IMHO, you just like to argue.  I'm through commenting on the "meat of your posts", how does it edify anyone?  You leave with nothing gained and your spirit surely isn't edified and the same with me, so I think I'll just leave it alone like most other people have apparently done.  My answers aren't acceptible to you and vice-versa.  God bless you and thanks for the happy birthday!

Originally posted by JesusServant
Why would we need flesh and blood?  Thomas touched Jesus while he was in his Glorified body did he not?  If he was just spirit how did Thomas feel his wrists/hands?  He had physical form, yet they did not recognize him at first because he looked more like an apparition.  Jesus had to tell them he wasn't a ghost. 

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You are exactly right. We don't need flesh and blood in the new kingdom.
So, continuing with our analysis:

We don't have flesh/skin - which is an organ
We don't have a circulatory system (no blood)
We don't have a nervous system (no pain)
We don't have tear ducts (no crying)
We have a digestive system - but can only eat manna
We can feel eachother (even without our nervous system)
We can pass through walls (like Christ did)
We can change our appearances (like Christ did)
We can appear and disappear in the blink of an eye (like Christ did)

BTW, where in the Bible does it say we'll have bodies like Christ's resurrected body in the New Kingdom? Just looking for a reference.

Oh, also; do animals have these "resurrected" bodies as well in the New Kingdom?

Originally posted by JesusServant
I meditate on all issues, why would I believe in a spiritual death?  From what I can see in the Bible the spirit cannot die, unless of course God spoke it to cease existing.  This is why I dislike when people talk about "slayed in the spirit", that's a terrible term.

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First off, let's agree that when we currently die, we are now a spirit. No physical aspects whatsoever. So all of the dead people roaming about are soley spiritual.
In Revelation - it states that the dead, who were not found in the book of life, would receive the 2nd death (lake of fire).

Rev 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So there is an example of spirits dying.

-A
 

Originally posted by armothe
Rev 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So there is an example of spirits dying.

-A
 

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How is this an example of spirits dying?

The lake of fire does not consume!

(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If your spirit dies how can it be torment for ever and ever?  It would say for a split second.

Are you JW Armothe?

Originally posted by armothe
Everything I've found states the new Kingdom is a spiritual one.
-A

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What about the millenial reign?  Is that spiritual or physical, if physical (by preterist view) when did it happen already?  If it isn't or hasn't happened or won't happen then how do you explain these scriptures?

 

Revelation 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.(Revelation 20:6) Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Originally posted by JesusServant
Thomas touched Jesus while he was in his Glorified body did he not

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No he did not.

Jesus did not come out of the tomb in a glorified body. It was the same body that went into the tomb. It had no supernatural powers that it didn't have before, save the fact that it couldn't be put to death again.

Jesus' body did not receive glorification until the ascention at the very earliest.

Originally posted by JesusServant
What about the millenial reign?  Is that spiritual or physical, if physical (by preterist view) when did it happen already?

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The Millennial reign was fulfilled by Christ being raised up by God to occupy the throne of David for the 40 years between the ascention and parousia (Acts 2:30-36) and was representative of the totality of the Davidic Monarchy, David being the first-Christ being the last, spanning 1000 earth years.

Originally posted by JesusServant
How is this an example of spirits dying?
The lake of fire does not consume!
(Revelation 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
If your spirit dies how can it be torment for ever and ever?  It would say for a split second.

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Maybe you missed something about the passage I quoted...you know, where the lake of fire is called the SECOND DEATH.

Dead = Spirits
Lake of fire = Death
Spirits thrown into Lake of Fire = Spirit Death

Rev 20:12-15 - And I saw the <B>dead</B>, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the <B>dead</B> were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.&nbsp;And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the <B>dead</B> that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.&nbsp; Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the <B>second death</B>, the <B>lake of fire</B>;&nbsp;and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was <B>thrown into the lake of fire</B>.&nbsp;

Regardless of what happens in the lake of fire afterwards...this is spiritual death. Revelation states this as fact.....you ignore it.

Originally posted by JesusServant
Are you JW Armothe?

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No.

-A

Originally posted by JesusServant


The lake of fire does not consume!

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You are correct. Sin and suffering exist forever.

Originally posted by parousia70
The Millennial reign was fulfilled by Christ being raised up by God to occupy the throne of David for the 40 years between the ascention and parousia (Acts 2:30-36) and was representative of the totality of the Davidic Monarchy, David being the first-Christ being the last, spanning 1000 earth years.

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I agree with parousia70 wholeheartedly. This is when the Millenial Kingdom occurred. Christ (and the disciples/apostles) establishing His one true kingdom which would last forever and ever. A spiritual kingdom based entirely around Christ's sacrifice, resurrection, &amp; return in 70AD.

-A

Originally posted by parousia70
No he did not.

Jesus did not come out of the tomb in a glorified body. It was the same body that went into the tomb. It had no supernatural powers that it didn't have before, save the fact that it couldn't be put to death again.

Jesus' body did not receive glorification until the ascention at the very earliest.

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Mary tried to touch Him but he said not to because He had yet ascended to the Father.&nbsp; Obviously if Thomas touched Him He had then in fact ascended.

And YES Thomas did touch Him.

Originally posted by armothe
Maybe you missed something about the passage I quoted...you know, where the lake of fire is called the SECOND DEATH.

Dead = Spirits
Lake of fire = Death
Spirits thrown into Lake of Fire = Spirit Death

Rev 20:12-15 - And I saw the <B>dead</B>, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the <B>dead</B> were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.&nbsp;And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the <B>dead</B> that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.&nbsp; Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the <B>second death</B>, the <B>lake of fire</B>;&nbsp;and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was <B>thrown into the lake of fire</B>.&nbsp;

Regardless of what happens in the lake of fire afterwards...this is spiritual death. Revelation states this as fact.....you ignore it.



No.

-A

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Where does Revelation say the spirit dies?

Well guys, since this isn't edifying to any of us, I'm going to bail out of this thread.&nbsp; We just disagree, simple as that.&nbsp; We are just chasing our tails in this discussion.

God bless you both, and best of blessings (dno't believe in luck)!

Originally posted by JesusServant
Mary tried to touch Him but he said not to because He had yet ascended to the Father.&nbsp; Obviously if Thomas touched Him He had then in fact ascended.

And YES Thomas did touch Him.

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Thanks for commenting on the meat of my post! Glad to have you back!

I was not claiming Thomas didn't touch him, I was claiming the Christ Thomas touched was not at that time Glorified as you claimed.

Scripture is clear that Christ was not glorified at any time during the 40 days between His resurrection and the one and only recorded ascention.

Originally posted by parousia70
Well, I can't really help it if, even after I make absolutely clear that I am not attacking you personally by the use of LOL, that you choose to take offence anyway. I can see you want to blame me, but I will not be held responsible for your personal choice.

It appears you are suggesting that I do not get upset when I see people suffering. That I never cry, that I don't have any empathy. What did I ever say to give you that impression?

Are you saying you never laugh?

Are you saying laughter is somehow evil, or to be avoided by the good Christian?

BTW, did you care to comment on the meat of my&nbsp;post?

You asked what my point was, and I attempted to clarify it for you. Did I?

BTW, Happy Birthday!

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I'm sure he doesn't think laughter is evil, I think he fails to see what exactly is&nbsp;so funny that you keep LOLing.&nbsp; I am not really seeing the humor either, and I crack up all the time. Hmm.

It's coming across as a&nbsp;"haughty and arrogant" sort of "laugh".&nbsp; I'm not saying you meant it that way!! I guess what I mean is, I can see how it might be misconstrued.

I do however have a question. I am new to this forum, and to this subject of preterism, futurism, etc...

In my signature is a scripture from the book of Micah. I believe chapter 4, verses 1-8 ...

Do preterist see this as purely figurative? I'm just trying to understand here.&nbsp; I guess with all the talk of war going on right now, I have a hard time fathoming the idea that we are living in the time where "nations will not learn war"...&nbsp;

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by GodFamilyCountry
I'm sure he doesn't think laughter is evil, I think he fails to see what exactly is&nbsp;so funny that you keep LOLing.&nbsp; I am not really seeing the humor either, and I crack up all the time. Hmm.

It's coming across as a&nbsp;"haughty and arrogant" sort of "laugh".&nbsp; I'm not saying you meant it that way!! I guess what I mean is, I can see how it might be misconstrued.

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Point well taken, and no I don't mean it that way..it's more of a frustrated laugh, a throw up your arms and sigh kind of laugh.

It's funny/odd to me and I'm just being honest by expressing it, however, even after prefacing it with "nothing personal" and "I'm not laughing AT you", He appears to choose to take offence anyway.

Since we are all soley responsible for what we personally find offensive, I will continue to refuse to let him hold me responsible for his own choices on the matter.

I do however have a question. I am new to this forum, and to this subject of preterism, futurism, etc...

In my signature is a scripture from the book of Micah. I believe chapter 4, verses 1-8 ...

Do preterist see this as purely figurative? I'm just trying to understand here.&nbsp; I guess with all the talk of war going on right now, I have a hard time fathoming the idea that we are living in the time where "nations will not learn war"...&nbsp;

Thanks in advance!

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This link might be of interest to you!

Be sure to watch the video!

Article: "Swords into ploughshares: transforming arms into art"
Link:

www.christian-aid.org.uk/news/swords/011220s.htm

Originally posted by JesusServant
Where does Revelation say the spirit dies?

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Oh for pete's sake.......this is the 3rd time I have to post this.
Can you read?

Rev 20:12-15 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.&nbsp; Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

SPIRITS DIED.

Are you looking for Revelation to say the exact words "spirits die" or "spiritual death" ?

Here are some other obvous scriptures which speak of spiritual death. I hope you plan on reading them.

Romans 6:20-23 - [/color]When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.&nbsp;So what advantage did you then get from the things of which you now are ashamed? The end of those things is death.&nbsp;But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Tim 9:10 - This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,&nbsp;but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

James 5:20 - Whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death.

1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death.

Do you understand that the point of Christ's dying on the Cross was to save us from Spiritual Death, not Physical Death?
Do you think Christians will physically live forever?

-A

Hi.. thanks for that link. That is an interesting website.&nbsp; Although, I'm not sure it's relevant to my question? I think that is great and creative, but is it the answer to the nations will no more learn war?&nbsp;We do learn war, and are spending much money on how to make war high tech, efficient and extremely precise and deadly.&nbsp;

What is your opinion on Micah chapter 4? Do preterists believe we are living in that time now?

Thanks![/font]&nbsp;

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