Transgender and the church

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Jase

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Jase,
right as demonstrated.
ie.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Lev 18:22
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders - 1 Cor 6:9
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Romans 1.

Of course you have shown you dont believe it, but thats different from it not saying what it says.

So I take it you believe the Earth is flat and geocentric right, because the English Bible says so?

You know full well those verses above say nothing about homosexuality. There was no such thing when the Bible was written. The fact that homosexual was added to 1 Cor 6:9 50 years ago, and never existed in the Bible prior to that goes to show that Bible publishers interjected their own conservative bias into the Bible to increase Bible sales.

They certainly weren't trying to be truthful to the Bible or they wouldn't have deemed Paul's made up word referred to a concept that didn't exist in Paul's day.
 
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HaloHope

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So you felt as though you were a woman? But you ended up dating a woman? But you have XX chromosomes?

Let me tell you honestly why I wouldn't comment or say its a sin or not. Because I do not know if it is a sin or not. So I wouldnt comment however there is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is a sin. Do you feel as though you are a homosexual? If not then maybe not I dont know if so then yes it probably is a sin. What do you feel about your sexuality?

Oh I definitely feel I'm homosexual. Theres no way in a million years I could be in a relationship with a man. I take no issue with being homosexual mind (lets debate that on another thread).

Another point I would like to raise (and before I do I would like to clarify I think the vast majority of people have sexuality pre-determined at birth), after what I went through I have a strong dislike of the male organ. If seeing one on TV or something I feel really physically ill so there is no way I could be in a relationship with a guy, I find the male form such a turn-off it would never work. I don't believe God would condemn someone to loneliness and celibacy.
 
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Phinehas2

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Jase,
Originally Posted by Avniel http://www.christianforums.com/t7486435-post55343068/#post55343068
If you murder someone and say to me I don't think it was a sin to take a life and I will do it again, if you steal and say stealing isn't a sin, if you lie and say lying isn't a sin, if you cheat on your wife/husband and justify it are you not sinning? Is it a sin to tell someone what the bible says is not a sin.
One doesn't need the Bible to know murder and stealing are wrong.
Hmmn, I know people who don’t think stealing is wrong, I don’t think you can make such as statement. however one doesn’t need to know the Bible to see that anatomically homosexuality is dysfunctional.

Homosexuality is victimless - it hurts no one.
Not for believing Christians, believing Christians who see the Bible passages that condemn homosexual offenders also see the passages that show sexual sin harms the person who does it.

Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. – Romans 1
and of course
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Sorry my friend but I don’t think any points you are making are scripturally based, they are all contrary to scripture.
The claim that theft is ok is the same as the claim that says same sex relations are ok, both are made by people from their own opinions, both are described in God’s word as sin.
Because you are not just stating what the Bible says. You are claiming something as so objectively and absolutely true, as to condemn large groups of humanity, based on your belief that the translators of the English Bible translated it perfectly without bias.
Long sentence.

We are stating what the Bible says is absolutely true, it is called faith in God’s word. The position you make does not have faith in God’s word and thus does not have faith in God (John 14-16)
Now the Biblical testimony of God may condemn those who don’t accept God’s grace, forgiveness favour, but hey that’s faith for you.

You refuse to question what you believe, and just take other people's word that the Bible in English is 100% identical to the Bible in Hebrew and Greek.
The Bible in English is 0% identical to the Hebrew and Greek, because English is a different language. But the liberal position would make it potentially all faulty translations, what the liberal position means is it believes the bits it wants to believe and rejects the bits it doesn’t like.
 
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Jase

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Jase,
Hmmn, I know people who don’t think stealing is wrong, I don’t think you can make such as statement.
I'm referring to our industrialized society. It's very hard to make a case for absolute morality, since not everyone agrees that murder is wrong. Islamic countries show absolute morality is non-existant. But for most people in a civilized society like the US, murder and stealing are wrong because they harm other people. That's why we created laws punishing them.

however one doesn’t need to know the Bible to see that anatomically homosexuality is dysfunctional.
Only if one assumes that sex is purely for procreation, which it isn't. There are heterosexual couples who never engage in vaginal intercourse. Are they anatomically dysfunctional? Not to mention, evolution has continued homosexuality in the population, therefore there is seemingly some benefit to it or it would have been selected out thousands of years ago.


Not for believing Christians, believing Christians who see the Bible passages that condemn homosexual offenders also see the passages that show sexual sin harms the person who does it.
Phinehas, show me in Hebrew or Greek, NOT English - the phrase "Homosexuality is a sin." Heck, show me in Hebrew or Greek the word Homosexual.


Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. – Romans 1
and of course
If you actually knew anything about the Bible like you claim to, you would know the people Paul was referring to in Romans 1 were heterosexuals who God gave over to same-sex pagan ritual practices. Same-sex behavior for a heterosexual is what is referred to as unnatural or unconventional. It's not unnatural for a homosexual to engage in same-sex behavior.


The Bible in English is 0% identical to the Hebrew and Greek, because English is a different language. But the liberal position would make it potentially all faulty translations, what the liberal position means is it believes the bits it wants to believe and rejects the bits it doesn’t like.
Kinda like you believe only a small set of mitzvos and ignore the rest?
 
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Phinehas2

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Jase,
I'm referring to our industrialized society. It's very hard to make a case for absolute morality, since not everyone agrees that murder is wrong.
You said one knows murder is wrong and now you are saying not everyone does.

Can you make your mind up please.
God’s word warns believers that the world will not accept His word, so we know many will not know what is right and what is wrong because they have their own morals rather than God’s.
The benchmark of what God’s, morals are is His word, humanism has its own such as whether it considers what God classifies as sexual immorality, harmful. Of course God says its harmful to those who have His Holy Spirit.
Only if one assumes that sex is purely for procreation, which it isn't.
Which is it, otherwise why would people use contraception? But it depends on what people see as sex. According to the anatomy, the organs used by the two sexes for reproduction are sexual reproduction organs. To attribute sex to anything that give pleasure is disordered thinking outside functional reality. Of course liberalism tries to justify this with human thinking such as ‘natural law’ but all that believers spot is that it is contrary to what God has observably created.

Phinehas, show me in Hebrew or Greek, NOT English - the phrase "Homosexuality is a sin." Heck, show me in Hebrew or Greek the word Homosexual.
Not believing what the English translation says means one doesn’t believe what the Hebrew and Greek says.

If you actually knew anything about the Bible
I have been quoting it, how could I not know anything about it.

Paul was referring to in Romans 1 were heterosexuals who God gave over to same-sex pagan ritual practices.
Not it is describing liberalism, because it describes what people do when they suppress the truth of God’s word. Those who try and make out the passage says something it doesn’t such as heterosexuals and pagan ritual practices, is an example of suppressing the truth. It describes the acts of those who suppress the truth as including men abandoning the natural use of women and committing indecent acts with other men which is perversion and error.


Kinda like you believe only a small set of mitzvos and ignore the rest?
Yes sort of as Christians don’t follow the OT law, do you, and if not why you expecting other to?
 
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savedfromdistruction

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Hello HaloHope,
I love you and I pray for you but the fact is that in the end what matters is what God says, not people. There is no one suggesting that you do not have something to wrestle with but we all do. One has one type of thing and another a different type of thing. However we do have a promise;

1Cor. 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

2Peter 2:9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

So you see no one can say that they have to sin. All sin is a choice. If we choose God in Christ through repentance and faith we will live as the Lord wants us to. If not then we will fall to the sin that our hearts love. We love the Lord we obey or we love sin we obey our flesh. The choice is ours, but so is the out come of our eternal state.

So are you in sin? YES! However you can come to the Lord in repentance and He will give you a new life that He wants for you. God bless.

1Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, [fn] nor sodomites,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
And such WERE some of you.


Going to post what I posted in the thread on intersexuality in a vain effort to lift the cobwebs from the eyes of those with a total lack of knowledge on the subject. While it isn't entirely on topic the post I made was addressing transexuality and I feel it is relevant here and may be read by more. I'd apologise for the emotional content but I don't feel it warrents any apology when I see similar responses here..

"Disgusted by some of the replies on this thread to be quite honest, just another excuse to bash homosexuality (unrelated to intersexuality AND transexuality).

While it turned out I myself was intersexed for a long time I did believe I was transexual it as only on medical examination that was deemed otherwise.

I will safely say that without a shadow of a doubt feeling you are in the wrong gender is one of the most traumatic and disturbing experiences a body can go through. To wake up with nothing but a deep set urge to harm your body as it feels like someone elses shell is stretched over you makes me sit here still crying at the memories. I was one of the lucky ones, a transexual person who does not undergo treatment to become their mental gender is extremely likely to kill themselves and I firmly believe that every church or individual who "advises" people not to go through with this without any prior medical knowledge on the scenario is responsible if that person ends their life at a later date. I haven't shared this before but a dear freind of mine ended their life after struggling with their gender for religious reasons, and I put their blood on the hands of their fundamentalist Christian family who put the pressure on them. Quite frankly they are scum.

Unless a person themselves has experienced the sheer trauma of being in the wrong body they have absolutely no understanding of the scenario. I'm not talking about kids dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex or mild confusion. I am talking about when it gets to the point you try to physically carry out self-surgery or peel off your own skin it feels so wrong on you. I've been there, fortunately I got help with changing my body (then it turned out I had XX chromosomes and used to have both sexual organs anyway but it applies to anyone in that scenario) and it is vitally important that people get the same help and support that I did and if their church does not offer that support or condemns and oppose who they are that is not a loving church but one responsible for great harm to others.

Said my peace on the subject, not going to return to this thread but those who condemn here are responsible for directing so much hate at others it's unreal. Sick to my stomach right now."


I'll probably get the same nonsense replies about demon possession and such rot, the ones that totally ignore successful medical treatment of transexuality with gender-reassignment surgery and hormone and the ones that clearly think people who have gender identity issues don't deserve happiness.

Also I would like to pose the question to people about my own situation. I was born quite bluntly with a penis and a vagina, the doctors said the vagina was malformed so they used surgery to make the penis the dominant sexual organ. I was raised male, given a male name and lived my life as a guy, when I was a kid I dressed up as a girl all the time, dreamt about being female even daydreamed as I wanted too. At a young age I feel this can be dismissed but it was when I hit puberty and essentially had bits of male and female puberty that the above mentioned issue arose, as I wasn't raised by my parents they were not around to mention what happened when I was born so I assumed I was transexual and for the purposes of this debate I can be if you like. I went through hormone treatment etc.. but it was when it came to surgery a "hang on whats down here isn't normal moment occoured" and my intersexuality was revealed to me.

Now that was a few years ago now I am a 25 year old woman, my chromosone are XX and between my legs is one sexual organ the female one bulit out of what was left of both my previous organs. Now I live romantically with another woman, my only relationship, going on 5 years now.. is this homosexual or not to some people? After all at some point I did have a penis. Genuinally curious on what peoples thoughts on the matter are and I'm sure some of you will share your thoughts on your perceived sinfulness of my situation. Things can be about as far from the black and white image given by some Christians as possible and believe my lifestory is one of them.
 
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Avniel

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Oh I definitely feel I'm homosexual. Theres no way in a million years I could be in a relationship with a man. I take no issue with being homosexual mind (lets debate that on another thread).

Another point I would like to raise (and before I do I would like to clarify I think the vast majority of people have sexuality pre-determined at birth), after what I went through I have a strong dislike of the male organ. If seeing one on TV or something I feel really physically ill so there is no way I could be in a relationship with a guy, I find the male form such a turn-off it would never work. I don't believe God would condemn someone to loneliness and celibacy.
If you feel you are a homosexual then you are a self admitted sinner.
 
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Jase

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1Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, [fn] nor sodomites,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
And such WERE some of you.
You might want to research the meaning of the Greek words translated as homosexual and sodomite there. They don't mean homosexual - the word doesn't exist in Greek. That translation was added 50 years ago by conservative bias. Since Martin Luther, up until the mid 20th Century, the word you just quoted as sodomite universally referred to masturbators. But please, feel free to ignore this and continue to misrepresent scripture in order to condemn gays.
 
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Avniel

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Avniel. Can you show me where in the original scriptures the word homosexual is?
Can you show me in the original text where a homosexual relationship is described? Can you show me in the original text where a homosexual relationship is said to be good? And I'm happy with my king james version
 
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Jase

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Can you show me in the original text where a homosexual relationship is described? Can you show me in the original text where a homosexual relationship is said to be good? And I'm happy with my king james version

Nope, because there was no such thing as homosexuality when the Bible was written. The concept didn't exist. Everyone in ancient times, even Greek and Roman days, were assumed to be heterosexual men and women, who sometimes engaged in same-sex behavior for prostitution or pagan worship. Sexual orientation, or the idea that some people are predisposed to be attracted to members of the same-sex was not postulated until the late 19th Century.

However, I will take your post as a concession that you can't find the word homosexual in the Bible (it doesn't exist in the KJV either).

So, can you explain how you arrived at your conclusion that gays are abominable sinners destined for Hell, when the concept didn't exist when the Bible was written?
 
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Avniel

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Nope, because there was no such thing as homosexuality when the Bible was written. The concept didn't exist. Everyone in ancient times, even Greek and Roman days, were assumed to be heterosexual men and women, who sometimes engaged in same-sex behavior for prostitution or pagan worship. Sexual orientation, or the idea that some people are predisposed to be attracted to members of the same-sex was not postulated until the late 19th Century.

However, I will take your post as a concession that you can't find the word homosexual in the Bible (it doesn't exist in the KJV either).

So, can you explain how you arrived at your conclusion that gays are abominable sinners destined for Hell, when the concept didn't exist when the Bible was written?
No I've stated it several times before what the bible said I dont like repeating myself. So if you would like to believe in that propaganda thats ur choice and ur issue.
 
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Jase

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No I've stated it several times before what the bible said I dont like repeating myself. So if you would like to believe in that propaganda thats ur choice and ur issue.
You're right, it is my issue. So if you would kindly stop condemning gays based on your misunderstanding of scripture I'd appreciate it.:wave:
 
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Avniel

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But you are quoting inaccurate scripture, and you seem unwilling to explore other possibilities.
Prove it show me proof with out a shadow of a doubt that that is what they are saying. Then prove to me where it is natural, then prove to me where it is acceptable to God.....................WHICH I HAVE BY THE WAY BEEN ASKING FOR THE LONGEST.
 
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Jase

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Prove it show me proof with out a shadow of a doubt that that is what they are saying. Then prove to me where it is natural, then prove to me where it is acceptable to God.....................WHICH I HAVE BY THE WAY BEEN ASKING FOR THE LONGEST.
And how do you propose I do that when God never discusses the issue? Don't you think Jesus would have discussed this quite a bit if it were as evil as you claim it is?
 
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Avniel

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And how do you propose I do that when God never discusses the issue? Don't you think Jesus would have discussed this quite a bit if it were as evil as you claim it is?
So your logic is that because it is not discussed then it is wrong(which I disagree with to being but let me humor you). How do you feel about child molestation? Under your theory it is perfectly fine? Correct. Based on the the fact that it isn't directly discussed in the Bible then it must be ok?

I need some different proof that doesn't work it is flawed reasoning even if your views on the english bible are correct(which they are not).

So what other proof do you have?
 
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HaloHope

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So are you in sin? YES! However you can come to the Lord in repentance and He will give you a new life that He wants for you. God bless.


I repent of my sins daily, I sin as a flawed human being all the time. However, I will not repent of something that I do not believe for one moment is a sin. Incidentally my copy of the Bible doesn't say "homosexual offenders" in Corinthians, it says "sodomites". According to Ezikiel Sodoms sin was inhospitality so I easily reach the conclusion the translation "homosexual offenders" comes from someone with an agenda against gay people.

I consider ending my relationship (which is what led me to God in the first place, I was non-Christian before meeting my now partner) would be one of the most foolish and idiotic things to do in my life. I can't for one moment accept that God hates love.

I firmly believe if God is giving people the cross to bear of never being able to share their lives romantically with another human being he is a barbaric God. Fortunately I see nothing of the sort in the God of the Bible.
 
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