Transgender and the church

savedfromdistruction said:

I am posing a question that in today's world that is certainly possible and even more it is very probable to happen in light of the changes we are seeing. Lets say that a couple join the church that are married. They have a family although not from this union. They attend for several years and become a loved part of the church. Even to yourself. They both are very active and teach at the church as well as carry out other duties. The person who is the wife is transgender, she has had the sex change, but no one knows except her/his husband. She/he had the sex change several years before she made a profession in Christ. Now she/he is serving in the church the best way she/he knows how.
However as many times happens the truth come to light to the church about her/his sex change. How should this be handled by the leadership (church)? Should this couple both be allowed to continue to carry on as if all is normal or should there be some changes made and what? What should be the churche's stance on this?

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Why would the church's position need to change? Transsexuality is not a sin, and if church leadership wants to kick this couple out because of their own bigotry, the couple is better off not belonging to that church.

savedfromdistruction said:

Homosexuality IS a sin

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Wrong.

and just because someone has themselves medically changed so as to seem another gender does not make them the opposite gender or change their birth gender.

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Transsexuality has nothing to do with sexual orientation. And a transsexual is one whose brain says they are one gender, but their body says differently. The surgery only serves to correct the disparity.

Years ago it was simply a change of clothes, but still homosexuality.

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I'm getting the impression that you don't understand the difference between homosexuality and transsexuality.

Today because of medical advances one can put on a different look bodily, but it does not change what God created. It is still homosexuality.

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No, it's transsexuality. Completely different than sexual orientation.

Cutting off the genitals and surgically modifying the body is simply an extreem that some people will go to cover their sin.

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According to Christ the church is the body of believers. If liberals and atheists think Christ's teaching is bigoted, as we see many of them do, then so be it.
If there are medical conditions such as gender dysphoria then the church should support the person involved.

Jase,
Homosexuality is a sin, we have all seen what the Bible says and the LGBT denial.

savedfromdistruction said:

Homosexuality IS a sin and just because someone has themselves medically changed so as to seem another gender does not make them the opposite gender or change their birth gender. Years ago it was simply a change of clothes, but still homosexuality. Today because of medical advances one can put on a different look bodily, but it does not change what God created. It is still homosexuality. Cutting off the genitals and surgically modifying the body is simply an extreem that some people will go to cover their sin.

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So does making a post like the above. Read what our Lord and Savior said in the Gospels, and then do what He commands. And that means you the Christian (not just savedfromdestruction but any and all of us), not your hypothetical indiiduals. Our Lord is compassionate to know our frailties and to forgive -- unless we turn from his forgiveness to stick our noses in our fellow Christians' lives and judge them without compassion or mercy -- whereupon His wrath is unleashed upon us, as He shows in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant -- and, take note the two Parables of the Two Sons, the one normally called that and the one normally called the Prodigal.

Pro-gay liberal theology doesn’t believe what Jesus NT teaching says about God’s creation purpose in man and woman being united, about the alternative of celibacy, or the sin of same sex relations. In addition it demonstrates that it doesn’t believe the passages about self righteousness either because in ignoring the teaching on same sex relations, it then accuses, whoever points out God’s word on this, of sinning.
The scriptures are there for teaching, rebuking correcting to equip God’s people for all good work, for believers. So when sin is mentioned it is for the benefit of the believer to note and avoid. So the believer doesn’t object to the scripture nor deny what it says or accuse whoever quotes it, no, the believer believes the condemnations of sin and the parables of the Father’s love patience and forgiveness, with thanks that God grace has allowed him/her to know God’s love and the truth which sets them free.
Praise God.

Polycarp1 said:

So does making a post like the above. Read what our Lord and Savior said in the Gospels, and then do what He commands. And that means you the Christian (not just savedfromdestruction but any and all of us), not your hypothetical indiiduals. Our Lord is compassionate to know our frailties and to forgive -- unless we turn from his forgiveness to stick our noses in our fellow Christians' lives and judge them without compassion or mercy -- whereupon His wrath is unleashed upon us, as He shows in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant -- and, take note the two Parables of the Two Sons, the one normally called that and the one normally called the Prodigal.

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If you murder someone and say to me I don't think it was a sin to take a life and I will do it again, if you steal and say stealing isn't a sin, if you lie and say lying isn't a sin, if you cheat on your wife/husband and justify it are you not sinning? Is it a sin to tell someone what the bible says is not a sin.

James 5:20
"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]Titus 2:15
"[/FONT][/FONT]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Luke 17:3
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

Titus 1:13
"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;"

Rebuke-Express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions.

• The word rebuke comes from the hebrew word ga`ar(gaw-ar).
• Ga'ar translation rebuke reprove corrupt

The thing that disturbs me is that majority of the people that are posting against homosexuality are being called anti-gay, discriminators, legalistic, and sinning themselves. When a vast majority are simple saying what the scriptures say. How can you claim I am a sinning when the bible states;
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]Ezekiel 33:8
"[/FONT][/FONT]When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
The reason people are getting mad is because what I and others are saying doesn't line up with what the world is teaching. But what I believe in doesn't line up with what the world has been teaching, the world didn't line up with Jesus and since that is the leader of my life I wouldn't accept those that hold true to modern teachings of the world to understand my position.

Well it begs a more serious question Avniel, if the word of God is attributed to people's opinion, there must be a lack of recognition of God.

savedfromdistruction said:

Homosexuality IS a sin and just because someone has themselves medically changed so as to seem another gender does not make them the opposite gender or change their birth gender. Years ago it was simply a change of clothes, but still homosexuality. Today because of medical advances one can put on a different look bodily, but it does not change what God created. It is still homosexuality. Cutting off the genitals and surgically modifying the body is simply an extreem that some people will go to cover their sin.

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Amen. If God made you male, then you are male. If He made you female, then you are female.

Or would one go so far as to say God was somehow confused when he made you and really didn't know what He was doing, hence, what God creates is....not good? When you stand before Him to give an account of your life and you surgically had a sex change, what reason would you give for doing that? Remember, this is God we're talking about.

Anyone ever notice that? How some people try to change something that cannot be changed.......like what sex you were born or God's word?

Phinehas2 said:

According to Christ the church is the body of believers. If liberals and atheists think Christ's teaching is bigoted, as we see many of them do, then so be it.
If there are medical conditions such as gender dysphoria then the church should support the person involved.

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True. No matter what, love the person anyway. Because that's what christians do....we love people. Or at least, that's what we should be known for.

Phinehas2 said:

Well it begs a more serious question Avniel, if the word of God is attributed to people's opinion, there must be a lack of recognition of God.

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I noticed they argue until someone's thread shuts them down and they think of a new scenario/issue to confuse those that feel homosexuality is a sin. Lets not circle around the issue is homosexuality a sin yes it is.

Going to post what I posted in the thread on intersexuality in a vain effort to lift the cobwebs from the eyes of those with a total lack of knowledge on the subject. While it isn't entirely on topic the post I made was addressing transexuality and I feel it is relevant here and may be read by more. I'd apologise for the emotional content but I don't feel it warrents any apology when I see similar responses here..

"Disgusted by some of the replies on this thread to be quite honest, just another excuse to bash homosexuality (unrelated to intersexuality AND transexuality).

While it turned out I myself was intersexed for a long time I did believe I was transexual it as only on medical examination that was deemed otherwise.

I will safely say that without a shadow of a doubt feeling you are in the wrong gender is one of the most traumatic and disturbing experiences a body can go through. To wake up with nothing but a deep set urge to harm your body as it feels like someone elses shell is stretched over you makes me sit here still crying at the memories. I was one of the lucky ones, a transexual person who does not undergo treatment to become their mental gender is extremely likely to kill themselves and I firmly believe that every church or individual who "advises" people not to go through with this without any prior medical knowledge on the scenario is responsible if that person ends their life at a later date. I haven't shared this before but a dear freind of mine ended their life after struggling with their gender for religious reasons, and I put their blood on the hands of their fundamentalist Christian family who put the pressure on them. Quite frankly they are scum.

Unless a person themselves has experienced the sheer trauma of being in the wrong body they have absolutely no understanding of the scenario. I'm not talking about kids dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex or mild confusion. I am talking about when it gets to the point you try to physically carry out self-surgery or peel off your own skin it feels so wrong on you. I've been there, fortunately I got help with changing my body (then it turned out I had XX chromosomes and used to have both sexual organs anyway but it applies to anyone in that scenario) and it is vitally important that people get the same help and support that I did and if their church does not offer that support or condemns and oppose who they are that is not a loving church but one responsible for great harm to others.

Said my peace on the subject, not going to return to this thread but those who condemn here are responsible for directing so much hate at others it's unreal. Sick to my stomach right now."


I'll probably get the same nonsense replies about demon possession and such rot, the ones that totally ignore successful medical treatment of transexuality with gender-reassignment surgery and hormone and the ones that clearly think people who have gender identity issues don't deserve happiness.

Also I would like to pose the question to people about my own situation. I was born quite bluntly with a penis and a vagina, the doctors said the vagina was malformed so they used surgery to make the penis the dominant sexual organ. I was raised male, given a male name and lived my life as a guy, when I was a kid I dressed up as a girl all the time, dreamt about being female even daydreamed as I wanted too. At a young age I feel this can be dismissed but it was when I hit puberty and essentially had bits of male and female puberty that the above mentioned issue arose, as I wasn't raised by my parents they were not around to mention what happened when I was born so I assumed I was transexual and for the purposes of this debate I can be if you like. I went through hormone treatment etc.. but it was when it came to surgery a "hang on whats down here isn't normal moment occoured" and my intersexuality was revealed to me.

Now that was a few years ago now I am a 25 year old woman, my chromosone are XX and between my legs is one sexual organ the female one bulit out of what was left of both my previous organs. Now I live romantically with another woman, my only relationship, going on 5 years now.. is this homosexual or not to some people? After all at some point I did have a penis. Genuinally curious on what peoples thoughts on the matter are and I'm sure some of you will share your thoughts on your perceived sinfulness of my situation. Things can be about as far from the black and white image given by some Christians as possible and believe my lifestory is one of them.

Phinehas2 said:

Jase,
Homosexuality is a sin, we have all seen what the Bible says and the LGBT denial.

Click to expand...

Wrong.

HaloHope said:

Going to post what I posted in the thread on intersexuality in a vain effort to lift the cobwebs from the eyes of those with a total lack of knowledge on the subject. While it isn't entirely on topic the post I made was addressing transexuality and I feel it is relevant here and may be read by more. I'd apologise for the emotional content but I don't feel it warrents any apology when I see similar responses here..

"Disgusted by some of the replies on this thread to be quite honest, just another excuse to bash homosexuality (unrelated to intersexuality AND transexuality).

While it turned out I myself was intersexed for a long time I did believe I was transexual it as only on medical examination that was deemed otherwise.

I will safely say that without a shadow of a doubt feeling you are in the wrong gender is one of the most traumatic and disturbing experiences a body can go through. To wake up with nothing but a deep set urge to harm your body as it feels like someone elses shell is stretched over you makes me sit here still crying at the memories. I was one of the lucky ones, a transexual person who does not undergo treatment to become their mental gender is extremely likely to kill themselves and I firmly believe that every church or individual who "advises" people not to go through with this without any prior medical knowledge on the scenario is responsible if that person ends their life at a later date. I haven't shared this before but a dear freind of mine ended their life after struggling with their gender for religious reasons, and I put their blood on the hands of their fundamentalist Christian family who put the pressure on them. Quite frankly they are scum.

Unless a person themselves has experienced the sheer trauma of being in the wrong body they have absolutely no understanding of the scenario. I'm not talking about kids dressing up in the clothes of the opposite sex or mild confusion. I am talking about when it gets to the point you try to physically carry out self-surgery or peel off your own skin it feels so wrong on you. I've been there, fortunately I got help with changing my body (then it turned out I had XX chromosomes and used to have both sexual organs anyway but it applies to anyone in that scenario) and it is vitally important that people get the same help and support that I did and if their church does not offer that support or condemns and oppose who they are that is not a loving church but one responsible for great harm to others.

Said my peace on the subject, not going to return to this thread but those who condemn here are responsible for directing so much hate at others it's unreal. Sick to my stomach right now."


I'll probably get the same nonsense replies about demon possession and such rot, the ones that totally ignore successful medical treatment of transexuality with gender-reassignment surgery and hormone and the ones that clearly think people who have gender identity issues don't deserve happiness.

Also I would like to pose the question to people about my own situation. I was born quite bluntly with a penis and a vagina, the doctors said the vagina was malformed so they used surgery to make the penis the dominant sexual organ. I was raised male, given a male name and lived my life as a guy, when I was a kid I dressed up as a girl all the time, dreamt about being female even daydreamed as I wanted too. At a young age I feel this can be dismissed but it was when I hit puberty and essentially had bits of male and female puberty that the above mentioned issue arose, as I wasn't raised by my parents they were not around to mention what happened when I was born so I assumed I was transexual and for the purposes of this debate I can be if you like. I went through hormone treatment etc.. but it was when it came to surgery a "hang on whats down here isn't normal moment occoured" and my intersexuality was revealed to me.

Now that was a few years ago now I am a 25 year old woman, my chromosone are XX and between my legs is one sexual organ the female one bulit out of what was left of both my previous organs. Now I live romantically with another woman, my only relationship, going on 5 years now.. is this homosexual or not to some people? After all at some point I did have a penis. Genuinally curious on what peoples thoughts on the matter are and I'm sure some of you will share your thoughts on your perceived sinfulness of my situation. Things can be about as far from the black and white image given by some Christians as possible and believe my lifestory is one of them.

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So you felt as though you were a woman? But you ended up dating a woman? But you have XX chromosomes?

Let me tell you honestly why I wouldn't comment or say its a sin or not. Because I do not know if it is a sin or not. So I wouldnt comment however there is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is a sin. Do you feel as though you are a homosexual? If not then maybe not I dont know if so then yes it probably is a sin. What do you feel about your sexuality?

In the other thread I was commenting on the peeling skin off of oneself.

but just in case you are read this
If you murder someone and say to me I don't think it was a sin to take a life and I will do it again, if you steal and say stealing isn't a sin, if you lie and say lying isn't a sin, if you cheat on your wife/husband and justify it are you not sinning? Is it a sin to tell someone what the bible says is not a sin.

James 5:20
"Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]Titus 2:15
"[/FONT][/FONT]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Luke 17:3
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

Titus 1:13
"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;"

Rebuke-Express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions.

• The word rebuke comes from the hebrew word ga`ar(gaw-ar).
• Ga'ar translation rebuke reprove corrupt

The thing that disturbs me is that majority of the people that are posting against homosexuality are being called anti-gay, discriminators, legalistic, and sinning themselves. When a vast majority are simple saying what the scriptures say. How can you claim I am a sinning when the bible states;
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial]Ezekiel 33:8
"[/FONT][/FONT]When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
The reason people are getting mad is because what I and others are saying doesn't line up with what the world is teaching. But what I believe in doesn't line up with what the world has been teaching, the world didn't line up with Jesus and since that is the leader of my life I wouldn't accept those that hold true to modern teachings of the world to understand my position.

Phinehas2 said:

Pro-gay liberal theology doesn’t believe what Jesus NT teaching says about God’s creation purpose in man and woman being united, about the alternative of celibacy, or the sin of same sex relations.

Click to expand...

Jesus had no teaching on same-sex relations. Would you please stop bearing false witness Phinehas.

In addition it demonstrates that it doesn’t believe the passages about self righteousness either because in ignoring the teaching on same sex relations, it then accuses, whoever points out God’s word on this, of sinning.

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See above.

The scriptures are there for teaching, rebuking correcting to equip God’s people for all good work, for believers.

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It seems like scripture is only there for condemning, because I've seen nothing else on these boards.

So when sin is mentioned it is for the benefit of the believer to note and avoid.

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And yet you conveniently avoid 90% of the mitzvos in the Bible, stating they don't apply to you.

Jase,

wrong

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right as demonstrated.
ie.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Lev 18:22
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders - 1 Cor 6:9
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Romans 1.

Of course you have shown you dont believe it, but thats different from it not saying what it says.

Avniel said:

If you murder someone and say to me I don't think it was a sin to take a life and I will do it again, if you steal and say stealing isn't a sin, if you lie and say lying isn't a sin, if you cheat on your wife/husband and justify it are you not sinning? Is it a sin to tell someone what the bible says is not a sin.

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One doesn't need the Bible to know murder and stealing are wrong. They are deemed wrong in secular society because they harm other people. Homosexuality is victimless - it hurts no one.

The thing that disturbs me is that majority of the people that are posting against homosexuality are being called anti-gay, discriminators, legalistic, and sinning themselves. When a vast majority are simple saying what the scriptures say. How can you claim I am a sinning when the bible states;

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Because you are not just stating what the Bible says. You are claiming something as so objectively and absolutely true, as to condemn large groups of humanity, based on your belief that the translators of the English Bible translated it perfectly without bias. You refuse to question what you believe, and just take other people's word that the Bible in English is 100% identical to the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. Anyone with any knowledge of foreign languages knows it's 100% impossible to get an entirely accurate translation from one language to another, let alone between languages so fundamentally different as Hebrew, Greek, and English.

Jase,

Jesus had no teaching on same-sex relations. Would you please stop bearing false witness Phinehas.

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that’s pro-gay theology and a false witness.
As I posted, just on the condemnations of same sex relations..
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Lev 18:22
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders - 1 Cor 6:9
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Romans 1.

Of course there is a difference between believing it, and what it says regardless.

See above.

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See above to counter your opinion with the word of God.

It seems like scripture is only there for condemning, because I've seen nothing else on these boards.

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Not for believers, for believers the scriptures are there to equip for every good work.

And yet you conveniently avoid 90% of the mitzvos in the Bible, stating they don't apply to you.

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Excuse me? What are the mitzvos if not the Torah commands? Christians follow Christ who is the fulfilment of the law. This is another question mark against liberalism as to the basic understanding of Christianity.