Two Witnesses Question

crush

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Hi Bible2,
Regarding Jesus' post-resurrection ascension, no verse requires that Jesus ascended only by an external power. For in the original Greek, the Greek-passive-voice ascension in verses such as Acts 1:11 can be taken together with the Greek-active-voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 to mean that Jesus' post-resurrection ascension occurred by both an external power and his own power working together at the same time. An analogy of this would be a man walking up an ascending escalator: both the man actively employing his own power to walk up the steps, and the man passively allowing the escalator to move those steps upward, are together responsible for the man's ascension.
After reading your response, I did some searching online and came across this definition of "active voice" from Blue Letter Bible.

Biblical Greek has three voices, active, middle, and passive:

The Active Voice:
This occurs when the action of the verb is being performed by the subject.

from Blue Letter Bible @ w w w (dot) blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm

I realize I said I was going to let this go, but I think I understand what the source of confusion here is, so I'm going to try one more time. If you are basing your argument on a similar definition as the one posted above from Blue Letter Bible, then I can see where you would think that it would be required for Christ to supply his own power for his ascension to heaven from your reading of John 3:13.

The problem is, the above definition is misleading though. The subject of the "active voice" verb does not necessarily have to provide the energy to "perform" the action. This idea is clearly refuted by the Luke 22:44 analysis from my previous post, and from 100's of examples in scripture.

Since this is the heart of your argument and you have built up several theories around this premise. I'm taking the time to break down several scriptures to show you how the "active voice" verb "descend" (katabaino) can relate to the subject in different ways within it's context. As well as provide you with more detailed definitions of the greek "active voice" verb. I'm sorry I can't post links on this forum so you'll have to manually enter the urls to the websites sourced.

In general it can be said that in the active voice the subject performs, produces, or experiences the action or exists in the state expressed by the verb.

1. Simple Active

The subject performs or experiences the action. The verb may be transitive or intransitive. This is the normal or routine use, by far the most common.


Mark 4:2 He was teaching them many things in parables

2. Causative (Ergative) Active [cause]

The subject is not directly involved in the action, but may be said to be the ultimate source or cause of it. That cause may be volitional, but is not necessarily so. For the simple verb, sometimes the gloss cause to can be used before the verb and its object; in such cases it is sometimes best to convert the verb to a passive (e.g., he causes him to be baptized).

Matt 5:45 He causes his sun to rise on [both] evil and good [people], and he causes it to rain on [both] the righteous and unrighteous.

3. Stative Active

The subject exists in the state indicated by the verb. This kind of active includes both equative verbs (copulas) and verbs that are translated with an adjective in the predicate (e.g. "I am rich").

Luke 16:23 [the rich man] existing in a state of torment.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word.


4. Reflexive Active

The subject acts upon himself or herself. In such cases naturally the reflexive pronoun is employed as the direct object (e.g., eauton), while the corresponding reflexive middle omits the pronoun.

Mark 15:30 Save yourself!

1Tim 4:7 Train yourself toward godliness!

from The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources @ w w w (dot) bcbsr.com/greek/gvoice.html

Verbs in active voice picture the subject as the one who performs, produces or experiences the action or exercises a certain activity. Active voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb. As an aside the Active voice is by far the most common voice in the NT, occurring 20, 697 times compared to 3500 for middle and 3933 for passive.
from Precept Austin @ w w w (dot) preceptaustin.org



Example of subject experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.

Luk 22:44 ...... his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

1. The subject - the sweat

2. The action - falling down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".

3. Power for the action - gravity

Does the subject perform or experience the action?

In this example, it can be determined that the subject (the sweat droplets) are accomplishing the 'going downward' (katabaino). The energy used for the descent is externally provided by gravity and not the sweat droplets themselves. Therefore, in this example the subject is experiencing the action and not providing the "power" for the action.

Example where it is implied in the context that the subject is experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.......

1. The subject(s) - the "good gift" and "perfect gift"

2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".

3. Power for the action - can't be determined conclusively from the context.

Does the subject perform or experience the action?

The implication in this example that the energy required for the descent of the gifts is provided by the "Father of lights" who is also providing the gifts themselves. If this analysis is correct, then the "gifts" are experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597. But in reality it can't be determined conclusively from this context whether the subject is performing or experiencing the action.

Example where no clue is given in the context of the subject performing or experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.

Joh 3:13 ....... but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1. The subject - the pronoun "he" (the Son of Man)

2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".

3. Power for the action
- not given in the context.

There are no clues in this context as to whether the subject experiences or performs the action of descent. The only information provided is that the subject descends from heaven. Since there are many ways to descend, with the subject either providing the energy for the descent or not. Under what power the subject descends is ambiguous.

Instead of another copy/paste response could you please tell me how the sweat drops engage in a self-powered or partially self-powered descent in Luke 22:44. If you can't answer, and conclude that sweat droplets are not self-powered, then please apply to John 3:13 as an example of how a subject is not providing the power for the action of the "active-voice" verb affecting it.

God bless you,
crush
 
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JesusServant

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These discussions remind me of what it must have sounded like during debates between the Sadducee and the Pharisees before Jesus arrived on the scene. They really expected fire to shoot out of the mouth of the Messiah and burn up Romans (their enemy). They didn't read Scripture as much spiritually as they did carnally.

Revelation uses more symbolism than any other book. When it says that when people try to kill the two witnesses that those people must be killed in the same way, how do you think this plays out?

I may be wrong, but at least consider it and read the chapter with the possibility that it is not two individuals. I can explain every word of it in light of it being the Church and God's chosen race, the Jewish people. Yes, they have the promise in the flesh (they represented our carnal struggle throughout the Old Testament) and the Church has the promise in the Spirit (through which all races may overcome the flesh). And the beast is simply the flesh as we learn in Ecclesiastes.

Maybe I should start another thread describing why I believe they are not two individual people.


God bless,
JS
 
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crush said:

The subject of the "active voice" verb does not necessarily have to provide the energy to "perform" the action.

While the active voice of a verb in itself doesn't necessarily have to mean that the subject of the verb performed the action in a way that involved his (or its) own power, the active voice of a verb can mean that (e.g., Jesus' "rising up" in Luke 24:45).

But when Jesus said that no man but he had ascended into heaven (John 3:13), he not only could have meant, he must have meant, that no man but he had ascended into heaven in a way that involved his own power, because otherwise Jesus would have been contradicting, for example, 2 Kings 2:11, which explicitly says that Elijah ascended "into heaven" by an external power. And if Elijah had ascended into heaven by an external power, then nothing forbids that Enoch and Moses had also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9).

Similarly, the "ascended" in John 3:13 isn't in the passive voice, because Jesus didn't mean that no man had passively ascended into heaven. For that would have contradicted, for example, the fact that Elijah had passively ascended into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). And if Elijah had passively ascended into heaven, then nothing forbids that Enoch and Moses had also passively ascended into heaven (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9).
 
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zeke37

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These discussions remind me of what it must have sounded like during debates between the Sadducee and the Pharisees before Jesus arrived on the scene. They really expected fire to shoot out of the mouth of the Messiah and burn up Romans (their enemy). They didn't read Scripture as much spiritually as they did carnally.

Revelation uses more symbolism than any other book. When it says that when people try to kill the two witnesses that those people must be killed in the same way, how do you think this plays out?

I may be wrong, but at least consider it and read the chapter with the possibility that it is not two individuals. I can explain every word of it in light of it being the Church and God's chosen race, the Jewish people.

could you show me in scripture where this is said!
I cannot seem to find any reference to the Jews being God's chosen people?
I think that is a mistake made by a lot of Christians today

Yes, they have the promise in the flesh (they represented our carnal struggle throughout the Old Testament) and the Church has the promise in the Spirit (through which all races may overcome the flesh). And the beast is simply the flesh as we learn in Ecclesiastes.

Maybe I should start another thread describing why I believe they are not two individual people.


God bless,
JS
the end time beast is not flesh...
but rather the fallen angel Satan himself,
and his political world wide system (NWO)

this is explained in Rev itself.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Wow, who knew the two witnesses cold get so complicated. I guess 2000 years of interpretations can do that ...

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth
.

My gut tells me the two witnesses are just a couple of guys speaking truth in an age of encroaching darkness. They are protected by God just long enough to get the message out, and from their own righteousness they are able to call forth miracles to protect themselves. Merely speaking truth torments the world's prince of "peace" who, through deception, rose to power along with his followers.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Moses and Elijah, together in Scripture:

Malachi 4


1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Mat 17:3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


Zec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Not forgetting, of course, that the things the two witnesses do are the same things that Moses and Elijah are known for, Scripturally.
 
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JesusServant

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Wow, who knew the two witnesses cold get so complicated. I guess 2000 years of interpretations can do that ...

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth
.

My gut tells me the two witnesses are just a couple of guys speaking truth in an age of encroaching darkness. They are protected by God just long enough to get the message out, and from their own righteousness they are able to call forth miracles to protect themselves. Merely speaking truth torments the world's prince of "peace" who, through deception, rose to power along with his followers.

Right, and you think that fire will fly out of there mouths too. That's what they expected Jesus to do.

guys, look up the word

Symbolism

Thanks :)
 
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NightHawkeye

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Right, and you think that fire will fly out of there mouths too.
Not exactly. More like fiery righteousness ..., unstoppable truth.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries
.
 
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the.Sheepdog

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Keyrect! The lost will hear the two witnesses and those words will burn and hurt! They will hate hearing them and will be angry and convicted! Bummer! Who wants to hear truth when it is so much more fun to hear smooth words!
 
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Right, and you think that fire will fly out of there mouths too. That's what they expected Jesus to do.

guys, look up the word

Symbolism

Thanks :)

Don't be so assured that you know what will happen, and what will be real and what will be a symbol.

I'm not saying fire will come out of their mouths or not, but if God wants it to be, it will be.

True wisdom is not pretending that you know, it's understanding what you don't know and resting in His knowledge.
 
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JesusServant

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No Jen... Read Isaiah... Fire was to come from the Messiah's mouth and CONSUME His adversaries... and it did! They were all enraged by what Christ had to say.

Now to the OP... I looked at a video you posted and followed to another video by the same people. Guess what? They believe exactly what I've been trying to explain. I think I can take it a bit further by even explaining sack cloth and ashes. But it says a lot that I've been trying to say more eloquently.

YouTube - THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION - Revealed! The Word of God Is Clear - THE WITNESSES ARE NOW HERE!

check it out
 
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HisdaughterJen

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No Jen... Read Isaiah... Fire was to come from the Messiah's mouth and CONSUME His adversaries... and it did! They were all enraged by what Christ had to say.

Now to the OP... I looked at a video you posted and followed to another video by the same people. Guess what? They believe exactly what I've been trying to explain. I think I can take it a bit further by even explaining sack cloth and ashes. But it says a lot that I've been trying to say more eloquently.

YouTube - THE TWO WITNESSES OF REVELATION - Revealed! The Word of God Is Clear - THE WITNESSES ARE NOW HERE!

check it out

What passage in Isaiah do you refer about fire killing enemies? By the way, your video ignores other Scriptural facts that dispute it's conclusion.
 
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JesusServant

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I didn't say kill Jen... consume...

I may be wrong about the location, but it's in the Old Testament. In the meantime, here's a Scripture that speaks figuratively of fire from one's mouth consuming others. I don't remember reading about any Jews being devoured by words walking around. This is not literal. Read with caution! ;)


Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith Jehovah, the God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Also Jen, there's another video with the same arguments I've read and considered for years that support what you're saying. But all of them ignore what that video is describing as well. If you watch both videos neither of them explain a different opinion of what the other is saying which is why people will continue to have more than one view. The transfiguration is a good example. It's a stretch to say Jesus was showing them the two future witnesses, but it does sound good.

Explain the two lampstands and the two olive tree/branches as being two individuals please. I'd love to read it.
 
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JesusServant

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Don't be so assured that you know what will happen, and what will be real and what will be a symbol.

I'm not saying fire will come out of their mouths or not, but if God wants it to be, it will be.

True wisdom is not pretending that you know, it's understanding what you don't know and resting in His knowledge.

I'm not pretending anything just giving my opinion. But I *know* symbolic writing when I read it. The Spirit is the one who testifies. I've felt His presence so many times discussing this subject that I know I'm not far off course.
 
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zeke37

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zeke, I can't even take you seriously. Read the entire Old Testament.
JEWS?

are you sure...have you read the New Testiment Bro?
Just curious?

if you mean Israel that's a different story...
or better yet, who Israel actually migrated into and became...hint hint!

too many Christians mix Jews with Israel, and Israel with Jews
and that is error,
especially in end time prophesy



that was my point anyway...continue!
 
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zeke37

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Keyrect! The lost will hear the two witnesses and those words will burn and hurt! They will hate hearing them and will be angry and convicted! Bummer! Who wants to hear truth when it is so much more fun to hear smooth words!
as an x-pretribber, i'd say Pre Trib is some of those smooth words
 
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crush

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Hi Jen,
Anyone considered Zerubabbel?
I did think about that one time but I found his description to be more familiar with the work of John the baptist.

The 'mountain' becomes a plain before Zerubabbel as the "rough places" are made "plains" in the Isaiah 40:3-4 in the prophecy concerning John the Baptist.

Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain:

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:


So as Zerubabbel prepared the land for the temple by leveling it, so that the "headstone" could be laid. John did this also, but the stone that was laid after his foundation work was Christ "the head of the corner".

Zec 4:7 .....and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Psa 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

So if this is also a prophecy regarding John's work in preparing the foundation for Christ to build his church. Christ being the cornerstone, then we church members added as stones measured and aligned from him to complete the temple. Then John, who starts the construction of the temple would also be the one to finish the temple. He would lay the last stone in this temple. Be present when the "church" was complete.


Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it.....


I don't think that John will be resurrected or anything, but could possibly be referring to the same Elijah mantle being passed forward.

crush
 
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