Hi Bible2,
Biblical Greek has three voices, active, middle, and passive:
The Active Voice:
This occurs when the action of the verb is being performed by the subject.
from Blue Letter Bible @ w w w (dot) blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm
I realize I said I was going to let this go, but I think I understand what the source of confusion here is, so I'm going to try one more time. If you are basing your argument on a similar definition as the one posted above from Blue Letter Bible, then I can see where you would think that it would be required for Christ to supply his own power for his ascension to heaven from your reading of John 3:13.
The problem is, the above definition is misleading though. The subject of the "active voice" verb does not necessarily have to provide the energy to "perform" the action. This idea is clearly refuted by the Luke 22:44 analysis from my previous post, and from 100's of examples in scripture.
Since this is the heart of your argument and you have built up several theories around this premise. I'm taking the time to break down several scriptures to show you how the "active voice" verb "descend" (katabaino) can relate to the subject in different ways within it's context. As well as provide you with more detailed definitions of the greek "active voice" verb. I'm sorry I can't post links on this forum so you'll have to manually enter the urls to the websites sourced.
In general it can be said that in the active voice the subject performs, produces, or experiences the action or exists in the state expressed by the verb.
1. Simple Active
The subject performs or experiences the action. The verb may be transitive or intransitive. This is the normal or routine use, by far the most common.
Mark 4:2 He was teaching them many things in parables
2. Causative (Ergative) Active [cause]
The subject is not directly involved in the action, but may be said to be the ultimate source or cause of it. That cause may be volitional, but is not necessarily so. For the simple verb, sometimes the gloss cause to can be used before the verb and its object; in such cases it is sometimes best to convert the verb to a passive (e.g., he causes him to be baptized).
Matt 5:45 He causes his sun to rise on [both] evil and good [people], and he causes it to rain on [both] the righteous and unrighteous.
3. Stative Active
The subject exists in the state indicated by the verb. This kind of active includes both equative verbs (copulas) and verbs that are translated with an adjective in the predicate (e.g. "I am rich").
Luke 16:23 [the rich man] existing in a state of torment.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word.
4. Reflexive Active
The subject acts upon himself or herself. In such cases naturally the reflexive pronoun is employed as the direct object (e.g., eauton), while the corresponding reflexive middle omits the pronoun.
Mark 15:30 Save yourself!
1Tim 4:7 Train yourself toward godliness!
from The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources @ w w w (dot) bcbsr.com/greek/gvoice.html
Verbs in active voice picture the subject as the one who performs, produces or experiences the action or exercises a certain activity. Active voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb. As an aside the Active voice is by far the most common voice in the NT, occurring 20, 697 times compared to 3500 for middle and 3933 for passive.
from Precept Austin @ w w w (dot) preceptaustin.org
Example of subject experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Luk 22:44 ...... his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
1. The subject - the sweat
2. The action - falling down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - gravity
Does the subject perform or experience the action?
In this example, it can be determined that the subject (the sweat droplets) are accomplishing the 'going downward' (katabaino). The energy used for the descent is externally provided by gravity and not the sweat droplets themselves. Therefore, in this example the subject is experiencing the action and not providing the "power" for the action.
Example where it is implied in the context that the subject is experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.......
1. The subject(s) - the "good gift" and "perfect gift"
2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - can't be determined conclusively from the context.
Does the subject perform or experience the action?
The implication in this example that the energy required for the descent of the gifts is provided by the "Father of lights" who is also providing the gifts themselves. If this analysis is correct, then the "gifts" are experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597. But in reality it can't be determined conclusively from this context whether the subject is performing or experiencing the action.
Example where no clue is given in the context of the subject performing or experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Joh 3:13 ....... but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
1. The subject - the pronoun "he" (the Son of Man)
2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - not given in the context.
There are no clues in this context as to whether the subject experiences or performs the action of descent. The only information provided is that the subject descends from heaven. Since there are many ways to descend, with the subject either providing the energy for the descent or not. Under what power the subject descends is ambiguous.
Instead of another copy/paste response could you please tell me how the sweat drops engage in a self-powered or partially self-powered descent in Luke 22:44. If you can't answer, and conclude that sweat droplets are not self-powered, then please apply to John 3:13 as an example of how a subject is not providing the power for the action of the "active-voice" verb affecting it.
God bless you,
crush
After reading your response, I did some searching online and came across this definition of "active voice" from Blue Letter Bible.Regarding Jesus' post-resurrection ascension, no verse requires that Jesus ascended only by an external power. For in the original Greek, the Greek-passive-voice ascension in verses such as Acts 1:11 can be taken together with the Greek-active-voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 to mean that Jesus' post-resurrection ascension occurred by both an external power and his own power working together at the same time. An analogy of this would be a man walking up an ascending escalator: both the man actively employing his own power to walk up the steps, and the man passively allowing the escalator to move those steps upward, are together responsible for the man's ascension.
Biblical Greek has three voices, active, middle, and passive:
The Active Voice:
This occurs when the action of the verb is being performed by the subject.
from Blue Letter Bible @ w w w (dot) blueletterbible.org/help/greekverbs.cfm
I realize I said I was going to let this go, but I think I understand what the source of confusion here is, so I'm going to try one more time. If you are basing your argument on a similar definition as the one posted above from Blue Letter Bible, then I can see where you would think that it would be required for Christ to supply his own power for his ascension to heaven from your reading of John 3:13.
The problem is, the above definition is misleading though. The subject of the "active voice" verb does not necessarily have to provide the energy to "perform" the action. This idea is clearly refuted by the Luke 22:44 analysis from my previous post, and from 100's of examples in scripture.
Since this is the heart of your argument and you have built up several theories around this premise. I'm taking the time to break down several scriptures to show you how the "active voice" verb "descend" (katabaino) can relate to the subject in different ways within it's context. As well as provide you with more detailed definitions of the greek "active voice" verb. I'm sorry I can't post links on this forum so you'll have to manually enter the urls to the websites sourced.
In general it can be said that in the active voice the subject performs, produces, or experiences the action or exists in the state expressed by the verb.
1. Simple Active
The subject performs or experiences the action. The verb may be transitive or intransitive. This is the normal or routine use, by far the most common.
Mark 4:2 He was teaching them many things in parables
2. Causative (Ergative) Active [cause]
The subject is not directly involved in the action, but may be said to be the ultimate source or cause of it. That cause may be volitional, but is not necessarily so. For the simple verb, sometimes the gloss cause to can be used before the verb and its object; in such cases it is sometimes best to convert the verb to a passive (e.g., he causes him to be baptized).
Matt 5:45 He causes his sun to rise on [both] evil and good [people], and he causes it to rain on [both] the righteous and unrighteous.
3. Stative Active
The subject exists in the state indicated by the verb. This kind of active includes both equative verbs (copulas) and verbs that are translated with an adjective in the predicate (e.g. "I am rich").
Luke 16:23 [the rich man] existing in a state of torment.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word.
4. Reflexive Active
The subject acts upon himself or herself. In such cases naturally the reflexive pronoun is employed as the direct object (e.g., eauton), while the corresponding reflexive middle omits the pronoun.
Mark 15:30 Save yourself!
1Tim 4:7 Train yourself toward godliness!
from The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources @ w w w (dot) bcbsr.com/greek/gvoice.html
Verbs in active voice picture the subject as the one who performs, produces or experiences the action or exercises a certain activity. Active voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb. As an aside the Active voice is by far the most common voice in the NT, occurring 20, 697 times compared to 3500 for middle and 3933 for passive.
from Precept Austin @ w w w (dot) preceptaustin.org
Example of subject experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Luk 22:44 ...... his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
1. The subject - the sweat
2. The action - falling down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - gravity
Does the subject perform or experience the action?
In this example, it can be determined that the subject (the sweat droplets) are accomplishing the 'going downward' (katabaino). The energy used for the descent is externally provided by gravity and not the sweat droplets themselves. Therefore, in this example the subject is experiencing the action and not providing the "power" for the action.
Example where it is implied in the context that the subject is experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights.......
1. The subject(s) - the "good gift" and "perfect gift"
2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - can't be determined conclusively from the context.
Does the subject perform or experience the action?
The implication in this example that the energy required for the descent of the gifts is provided by the "Father of lights" who is also providing the gifts themselves. If this analysis is correct, then the "gifts" are experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597. But in reality it can't be determined conclusively from this context whether the subject is performing or experiencing the action.
Example where no clue is given in the context of the subject performing or experiencing the action of the "active voice" verb "katabaino" - to descend #G2597.
Joh 3:13 ....... but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
1. The subject - the pronoun "he" (the Son of Man)
2. The action - coming down "katabaino" (to descend #G2597). The "Voice" of the verb "katabaino" in this example is "Active".
3. Power for the action - not given in the context.
There are no clues in this context as to whether the subject experiences or performs the action of descent. The only information provided is that the subject descends from heaven. Since there are many ways to descend, with the subject either providing the energy for the descent or not. Under what power the subject descends is ambiguous.
Instead of another copy/paste response could you please tell me how the sweat drops engage in a self-powered or partially self-powered descent in Luke 22:44. If you can't answer, and conclude that sweat droplets are not self-powered, then please apply to John 3:13 as an example of how a subject is not providing the power for the action of the "active-voice" verb affecting it.
God bless you,
crush
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