brain imaging, determinism/free will and the God factor

1. Do we have brain imaging technology that actually shows a physical difference in the AS brain when compared to the NT brain? PET scans perhaps?

1. What kinds of official tests exist, where can I find them, who gives them and how are they measured in terms of severity? In order to be officially diagnosed are there a battery of tests? must they be taken under supervision with dr.?

Sabertooth said:

This is not a popular answer, but one to consider:

Whenever we find ourselves to be compelled to sin (beyond garden-variety temptation), we should consider the possibility of demonization. At first, that sounds like a "horror movie" scenario, but (speaking from personal experience) it plays out more like a healing.

Many of the people, who experienced deliverance in the Bible, would have been diagnosed with various psychopathic disorders (and medicated accordingly) had they presented today. Many were brought to Jesus by family members who were neither psychiatric nor deliverance experts. And Jesus never sent them to a pharmacist with a diagnosis and script.

Compulsively anti-social behaviors are common flags for demonization, regardless of the label given. Keep taking your medicine, but I would check out churches that know about deliverance. Most Vineyards & Assemblies of God are willing to pray in these areas and I have heard that Foursquare Gospel churches do, too, but I don't know that from experience.

Aspergers Syndrome, by itself, is not anti-social, however; it is socially inept. Personally, I have many of the difficulties usually associated with AS, yet, I flat-lined an MMPI-2 test... This is a strong argument for its neurological basis. But, again, if you look at the kinds of people who received deliverance from Jesus, apparent neuropathy was almost as common as apparent psychopathy. The boy in Luke 9:37 might, today, be diagnosed as epileptic, which is in the former, not the latter. So that means my AS might be demonic at its root (and I would not reject competent deliverance for it), but it lacks the quality of compelling one into sin (so it might not be).

Restated, psychopathy is like being forced to run in the wrong direction, involuntarily; where neuropathy allows you to move forward in God, albeit, with a notable limp.

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Sabertooth said:

This is not a popular answer, but one to consider:

Whenever we find ourselves to be compelled to sin (beyond garden-variety temptation), we should consider the possibility of demonization. At first, that sounds like a "horror movie" scenario, but (speaking from personal experience) it plays out more like a healing.

Many of the people, who experienced deliverance in the Bible, would have been diagnosed with various psychopathic disorders (and medicated accordingly) had they presented today. Many were brought to Jesus by family members who were neither psychiatric nor deliverance experts. And Jesus never sent them to a pharmacist with a diagnosis and script.

Compulsively anti-social behaviors are common flags for demonization, regardless of the label given. Keep taking your medicine, but I would check out churches that know about deliverance. Most Vineyards & Assemblies of God are willing to pray in these areas and I have heard that Foursquare Gospel churches do, too, but I don't know that from experience.

Aspergers Syndrome, by itself, is not anti-social, however; it is socially inept. Personally, I have many of the difficulties usually associated with AS, yet, I flat-lined an MMPI-2 test... This is a strong argument for its neurological basis. But, again, if you look at the kinds of people who received deliverance from Jesus, apparent neuropathy was almost as common as apparent psychopathy. The boy in Luke 9:37 might, today, be diagnosed as epileptic, which is in the former, not the latter. So that means my AS might be demonic at its root (and I would not reject competent deliverance for it), but it lacks the quality of compelling one into sin (so it might not be).

Restated, psychopathy is like being forced to run in the wrong direction, involuntarily; where neuropathy allows you to move forward in God, albeit, with a notable limp.

Click to expand...

Sabertooth said:

Product - Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2 (MMPI-2)#

It also has built-in lie detection.

As I understand it, psychopathy has no known organic cause, but neuropathy is seen as a result of known brain injury (or at least mimicked in cases of known brain injury). I don't think ODD or Bipolar have been presented as a result of known brain injury alone, where there was none before (but I could be wrong). Savantism & other autistic traits have all been seen in persons with known brain injuries.

BPD is considered organic and as for cause? well, i've got no stats, but as i understand it, it's a disorder that shows one of the highest genetic connections...i.e inherited. My father and cousin (his neice), are both bpd, but i didn't find this out till later on in life. I never met my father or cousin and from what i hear, her symptoms are very similar to mine. As for the organic biological part since i'm too out of it to get technical, i'll break it down in the simplest of terms. Anyone can have mood swings and even feel "bipolar" from time to time and to varied degrees. We know that chemicals and hormones affect mood. PMS is just one tiny example. But what makes bpd a disorder is when the cycles are on going and the swings notably extreme. Just ask a women during PMS why she's crying for no reason, or feels a bit edgy, sensitive or irritable. I don't think we have the brain injury criteria for pms, but yet we know that at least half the population of humanity can attest to this legit mood change that occurs once a month. Post partum depression is another organic mood disorder caused by an imbalance in our chemistry.

In a nutshell, here's what makes the bp patient "feel" what they feel. The component that regulates mood in the brain for some reason fails to work properly. I know i'm super simplifying it, but think of it as a sort of filter whose job it is to regulate and disseminate mood hormones in a balanced way so that your emotions don't go haywire. That filter when working properly is what gives the brain a balanced amount of hormones. If the filter is "broken" it either filters out an excess amount of serotonin (the happy euphoric hormone), then when depleted or if the filter is not letting enough out, the lack of serotonin causes depression. Do we have an image of this happening while it's happening? No, just like we have no brain image proving AS, but we have a lot of strong evidence. We do have PET scans that show the depressed and manic brain states comparitively. Meds designed to "fix" the mood regulator that, for some, actually do regulate and balance the mood. I think you would agree that hormonal chemistry is organic right?
For example, if you were to take a hit of exctasy or meth, you'd feel manically euphoric and exhibit many similar manic symptoms associated with BPD. why? because these drugs, when abused, release and flood your brain with all the "feel good" hormones and it is no wonder that severe ecstasy abusers end up completely depleting so much serotonin that they end up in a depressed and numbed out state, in some cases, permanently which essentially is the definition of brain damage.

So as for the brain injury argument regarding bpd i don't know if there are any brain injury cases or what the initial cause could be with certainty, but maybe that's because the brain injury itself is cyclically happening every time the regulator malfunctions. I don't know what first caused it to malfunction any more than we know why entropy exists. The only connection is the genetic one. This field is still in its infancy and though we've learned a whole heck of a lot in the last 20 yrs.,this organ between our ears is highly complex and we have a long way to go. Although, i think it's cool to think that this organ is the only organ that analyzes, studies and fixes itself.

As for AS and the behavior issue....hmmmmm i guess that depends on your perspective. Before my boyfriend was diagnosed with AS, i interpreted many of his actions or in actions as pure selfishness, lacking empathy, coldness, rejection, rudeness, inconsiderate/self-absorbed behavior, heartless in showing compassion, and obliviously self-centered. Now, i'm not saying these are sins or that my interpretations were correct or even that the lack of the preferred virtues were/are his fault, but, from where i was standing, they sure aren't fruits of the spirit either when you are on the receiving end....now that he has been diagnosed, what i took to be painful defects in his character that affect me greatly are now considered involuntary symptoms. Though now i can be more understanding and tolerant/patient, it's still very new to me and often times I don't know what to do with it all or even know where or how to begin processing it. I'm still learning and trying, but it's hard for me.

[FONT=&quot]All this stuff can be overwhelming and i know very little for certain, but what i do know is this: We are all sinful and commit sins with or without a disorder/illness etc. Do i believe that i my organic genetic bpd symptoms compel me to sin? No i don't believe so, unless you believe being depressed is a sin. Before i was diagnosed and new nothing about this disorder some of my symptoms created conditions that seemed more conducive to inappropriate behavior at best and even more prone to sin at worst due to the unihibited symptoms during a hypo manic episode, but does that mean i was determined to sin or that i was more vulnerable to sin? I'd say yes to the latter and yet, it has also made me the most shielded from sin and closest to god. Sometimes, i'm good for nothing and for no one during these moments and sometimes, during my most broken state, God flourishes my gifts and ministers to others through my broken brain and dying spirit.

Now that being said, there are people with tourette's syndrome, there are people with severe terminal brain tumors who say the wickedest things towards the end to those they love through no fault of their own. Does that mean they are demon possessed? i would hesitate to come to that conclusion.

As a christian who happens to have bipoloar disorder which is neurological and not psychopathic, this is how i see the whole sin vs. neurology thing.
Bipolor is very different from AS, so i won't even try to make comparisons and just like every individual with AS is unique and manifest their symptoms differently, so the same goes for the individual with BPD. Now, I tend to think of BPD as a sort of "perception" disorder. When i'm depressed my "dark glasses" come on and all is colorless and bleak, but i still have a choice as to my response in terms of coping. When manic, my "rose colored" glasses come on. It's almost like "beer goggles" or a sort of drunken state depending on the severity. I.E...you feel less inhibited since your brain is literally flooded with an overt amount of serotonin. (The drug exctasy does exactly this: releases all the "feel good" chemicals/hormones (serotonin in particular), which is why the hypo manic and ectasy user feels hyper sensitive, atuned and invincible. It's a euphoric state if it doesn't cross That is what i meant in my post by "sober from a manic bender". I don't mean alcohol or any lascivious behavior, i simply meant that when i come out of it, my judgment is no longer impaired and that movie i thought was so life changing, was just another generic tear jerker. Now, here's the thing folks, there are these common behaviorial/perceptual symptoms for all bpd's, and though many are very similar, the chemically-induced emotions are impossible to ultimately over-ride on their own except for divine intervention. (the right cocktail of meds and other external influences can and do a lot to help and even temporarily erase the effects, but at the end of the day, even though these helpful aids are necessary, without communion with God, i'm basically screwed.
However the impulse to act on these neurological imbalances and how they manifest vary from person to person depending on a variety of factors. One thing is for sure, the more i understand about the disorder and my patterns, the better equipped i am in managing or even uncovering the "choices" i actually have.
Let me give you an example: when i was first diagnosed, i completely denied it, since one of the text book manic behaviors listed was sexual promiscuity. Here is where "the will" factor comes in. Here is how an uninhibited emotion manifests differently from person to person according to who they are. I practiced chastity, so of course that alleged "symptom" didn't apply, however, now looking back, though i didn't engage in promiscuity, i did, however, make impulsively impaired poor choices as to who to date during a manic episode. Another example in the other extreme: During severe depressions where you really don't want to die, but you want out of the torture, many bpd's end up escaping into destructive behavior such as cutting, substance abuse and suicide attempts as last resort. Now i can't tell you how many times i wanted it all to end, not just for the current state, but for the exhaustion of it all and the knowledge that it will continuously return over and over. I've never escaped through substance abuse, but can sure say what an understandable release that must feel like for the clinically depressed, even if but temporary. Why haven't i done it? Is is cuz i'm such a saint? No. It's simply cuz i know better and know cuz it'll only compound my illness in the long run. The other reason is because i once abused drugs as a teen and it was through that addiction that i was came to know God. I.e...In a nutshell: moment of crisis...me: "if you're there take it all away"...God: "i'm here and so i will".
So thank God for that early conversion, cuz instead of coping with chocolate ice cream, sleeping and lots of tv syfy, i'd probably be over dosing somewhere by now.

Now do the meds help? Yes, no, sometimes. I'm definately better off with them than without them...episodes less severe and sometimes more manageable. but...they still happen. Does prayer help? yes, no, sometimes. Recently, while hospitalized, i had the most amazing divine intervention and wish it could always be that way. In the midst of chaos, where nothing else worked, God sent some visitors who pretty much brought down pentecost in the sitting room where even the most cynical received prayer, healing, comfort, joy and love.[/FONT]

Anyway, i'll end here...sorry for the length....these are really two posts crunched into one. i'm a bit on the low swing right now, so if i repeated myself ....my apologies. i just don't have the mental energy to go through and proof read this long winded tale of mine.







I don't know. If you were to have Tourette Syndrome, would you get a free pass on the Third Commandment? At the very least, I believe God would expect us to hound him until something happened. Whether it was a healing or a deliverance really wouldn't matter.



AS doesn't compel one to sin, but (as I said earlier) I still wouldn't reject a competent offer for deliverance.



Personal and some ministry experience. Certainly, this idea is controversial, but instead of engaging in a rehash that would only amount to a worthless filibuster, just go back to what you were doing before, if you won't consider it as an option.



That is moving from the specific to the general. Deliverances involved speaking to one or more self-aware entities, while healings were spoken directly to one's condition, i.e. "Lazurus, come forth," "Little girl, arise," etc. or physical touch (the blind man with mud, the woman with the issue of blood, etc.)

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