Homosexuality

VertigoAge said:

Alcoholics Anonymous (founded by Christians and rooted in the belief that God's help is needed) says otherwise. My father was delivered form alcoholism with the help of his faith. He has been sober for years, and I am very proud of him, but he still has an orientation towards alcoholism, and cannot drink (even socially).

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John 8:36

Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

One more scenario: a woman was regularly physically abused by her non-Christian husband and divorced him. She finds true love for the first time in her life when she meets a wonderful Christian man. She also finds God for the first time from this relationship. Can she marry him? The logic that you and others have used here would say no. The bible says that divorce is only permissible when adultery is present. So, if she remarried, she would be committing adultery against her husband each time she was intimate with her new husband. Do you know any remarried Christians? Would you tell them that they cannot be Christians unless they return to their first husband?

My point all along is that we can't know another's sanctification path. The Holy Spirit works differently, and I will never say with certainty that someone else's salvation is or is not secure.

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That is a false understanding of the scripture. Wisdom is a much underused gift. We are to judge for fruit. Homosexuals, if they have accepted Jesus, will have little fruit as they are continuing in sin when they are called to repent and renounce.

Phinehas2 said:

I assume we both agree that divorce and same sex relationships are wrong? Or are you playing devil’s advocate?

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I am saying that many people are too confident that they have correctly interpreted when something is a sin and when it isn't. I brought up the divorce example because almost everyone would agree that circumstances do matter for whether it's "right or wrong". Similarly, we rely on our interpretation of the commandment against killing in order to differentiate sinful killing and killing done by a soldier as part of his job.

As others have said, the homosexuality that is referenced in the bible is almost always heterosexual males doing it against others for reasons of lust or degrading an enemy. Rampant homosexuality in biblical times was a threat to whole notion of the family unit. It was very important to prohibit the spread back then. Intermarriage between races was also prohibited for the same reason: because if it were allowed to spread, the nation of Israel would have been diluted and infused with many other gods and belief systems. That rule has been relaxed because intermarriage no longer is a threat to Christianity. What I'm saying is that it is possible that homosexuality could be in the same category. When it was so wide-spread and linked to rape and pedophilia, it was certainly more "anti-Christian".

Do I know this for sure? No, of course not. But when I look at the the two greatest commandments (love God and love your neighbor), I can't sit here and say that a Christian homosexual who loves God and his neighbor is condemned, while a prideful, self-righteous Christian heterosexuals are A-OK.

Romans 1:26-27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

unseemly- indecent: not in keeping with accepted standards of what is right or proper in polite society; "was buried with indecent haste"; "indecorous behavior"; "language unbecoming to a lady"; "unseemly to use profanity"; "moved to curb their untoward ribaldry"

In the bible if you are doing something that is unseemly not right or proper that is called sinning. Do you deny that? Do you deny that the bible has a firm stance on homosexuality.....I am tired of people misusing and manipulating the bible to support their sin.

VertigoAgo,

I am saying that many people are too confident that they have correctly interpreted when something is a sin and when it isn't. I brought up the divorce example because almost everyone would agree that circumstances do matter for whether it's "right or wrong".

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The Bible says what it says, both divorce and same sex relationships are wrong, we can as believers be confident of that.
If you are not confident of one don’t expect others to share your doubts about either.
And dont bother offering me what others have said when what they have said is contrary to the truth which is the word of God in the Bible.
What is condemned and excluded in the Bible is men with men instead of with women, that rules out all of the assumptions you made.
God made male and female to be in union, so homosexuality is a man made concept and error…. and of course if you really believed the two greatest commandments that sun up the law you would know same sex relations are error.

Phinehas2 said:

VertigoAgo,
The Bible says what it says, both divorce and same sex relationships are wrong, we can as believers be confident of that.
If you are not confident of one don’t expect others to share your doubts about either.
And dont bother offering me what others have said when what they have said is contrary to the truth which is the word of God in the Bible.
What is condemned and excluded in the Bible is men with men instead of with women, that rules out all of the assumptions you made.
God made male and female to be in union, so homosexuality is a man made concept and error…. and of course if you really believed the two greatest commandments that sun up the law you would know same sex relations are error.

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There is no question the Bible is the word of God. If the word of God says its wrong then it is wrong. The problem is people know that we have grace through Jesus Christ and they use that mercy and the new covinent as an excuse for their sins. But they dont understand Jesus didnt destroy the law
but to fulfill the law. Then when you live by the law you are a legalistic.

VertigoAge said:

As others have said, the homosexuality that is referenced in the bible is almost always heterosexual males doing it against others for reasons of lust or degrading an enemy. Rampant homosexuality in biblical times was a threat to whole notion of the family unit. It was very important to prohibit the spread back then. Intermarriage between races was also prohibited for the same reason: because if it were allowed to spread, the nation of Israel would have been diluted and infused with many other gods and belief systems. That rule has been relaxed because intermarriage no longer is a threat to Christianity. What I'm saying is that it is possible that homosexuality could be in the same category. When it was so wide-spread and linked to rape and pedophilia, it was certainly more "anti-Christian".

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God hasn't relaxed His view on anything He deems a sin, and morally wrong. What is homosexual sex but fornication? He hates that, too.

Do I know this for sure? No, of course not. But when I look at the the two greatest commandments (love God and love your neighbor), I can't sit here and say that a Christian homosexual who loves God and his neighbor is condemned, while a prideful, self-righteous Christian heterosexuals are A-OK.

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Love doesn't enter into it. Homosexuality is a perversion of love. We aren't called to love our neighbours like that!

Rationalizing it by comparing it with other sins is the first inkling that you know it is wrong but you are whining about it. "But mom, the other kids are worse!"

Avniel said:

Romans 1:26-27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

unseemly- indecent: not in keeping with accepted standards of what is right or proper in polite society; "was buried with indecent haste"; "indecorous behavior"; "language unbecoming to a lady"; "unseemly to use profanity"; "moved to curb their untoward ribaldry"

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Once again, this relies on interpretation. The anti position would say this passage prohibits all homosexual behavior. The pro position would say that it only prohibits lustful homosexual acts (which are unseemly), but would allow for loving ones. Each person would say the other is "manipulating" that part of scripture to meet their beliefs. I'm not arguing for either of them, but only showing that it isn't a winable debate and doesn't need to be. Biblical interpretation of Homosexuality or divorce or the definition of lust isn't in the Nicene creed. One's exact position on them does not define whether one can be a Christian or not.

Avniel said:

I am tired of people misusing and manipulating the bible to support their sin.

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We all have a tendency to call it manipulation when an interpretation does't agree with our own. The truth is, we all manipulate scripture to some extent, and none of us can confidently tell when we are and when we aren't. All we can do is work on our own relationship with God and pray that our wisdom and ability to interpret scripture grows with our sanctification. But we will not have have the capacity for 100% accurate interpretations while we remain in our Earthly human form.

A ha! Two very interesting arguments here!

Lively Stone said:

What is homosexual sex but fornication? He hates that, too.[/B]

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This is RIGHT at the heart of it. If you look back at my earlier posts here, you will see that I actually do fall on the side that says it is sinful (despite what you might have thought). My only caveat is that homosexuality is one area for which I leave room for the possibility that I might be wrong.

For me, the real question is: can homosexuals be married? It would seem not, according to the Bible. Therefore, logically... it would seem that any sexual activity would be fornication.

I do disagree that it can't be love though, unless you want to take a position that all fornication (including between man and woman) is a perversion of love. I don't see it that way. I think fornication can involve love and still be sinful.

Lively Stone said:

Rationalizing it by comparing it with other sins is the first inkling that you know it is wrong but you are whining about it. "But mom, the other kids are worse!"

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I completely agree with you! But... it's even easier to go in the other direction. I'm having lustful thoughts, but at least I'm not a homosexual! I'm having sex with my girlfriend and we aren't married, but at least that's not an "abomination" like homosexuality! I'm having an affair, but at least I didn't have her husband killed like King David did!

My whole point here is that while homosexuality may be wrong, so is pride, greed, gossiping, and many other areas that we live in sin. Prideful, greedy, gossipy people can be Christians, and so can homosexuals.

Phinehas2 said:

VertigoAge,
Whether believers continue to have a desire to sin is not the issue, and many longer do. My addiction to tobacco was completely terminated through faith in Christ.

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I am very glad that you were delivered from even the desire for tobacco. I know people (including my mother) who were delivered from alcoholism. And who were delivered from other addictions, as well. If the Lord wills, I believe He can deliver someone from a gay orientation, as well. But I know of no credible claims of Him delivering anyone from a gay orientation.

But, even with addictions, the more usual way that the Spirit transforms the person is gradually, and He uses the fellowship of of others struggling with the same temptations (whether in churches or specialized groups such as AA) as the agent of their growth. Again though, there is no credible evidence that the equivalent geared toward homosexuals (ministries like Exodus International) have even one tenth the kind of results that those others do.

The NT teaching shows Christians should not remarry if divorced, on the other hand, it also shows where there is genuine repentance there is forgiveness. I assume we both agree that divorce and same sex relationships are wrong? Or are you playing devil’s advocate?
Ah, whilst we cannot make the call we know the dangers from Christ’s teaching.

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VertigoAge said:

A ha! Two very interesting arguments here!



This is RIGHT at the heart of it. If you look back at my earlier posts here, you will see that I actually do fall on the side that says it is sinful (despite what you might have thought). My only caveat is that homosexuality is one area for which I leave room for the possibility that I might be wrong.

For me, the real question is: can homosexuals be married? It would seem not, according to the Bible. Therefore, logically... it would seem that any sexual activity would be fornication.

I do disagree that it can't be love though, unless you want to take a position that all fornication (including between man and woman) is a perversion of love. I don't see it that way. I think fornication can involve love and still be sinful.

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Their so-called "love" is based on a perversion and is not the love that God has sanctioned. Therefore it is basically lust, and not love. We've got to get real about this stuff.

I completely agree with you! But... it's even easier to go in the other direction. I'm having lustful thoughts, but at least I'm not a homosexual! I'm having sex with my girlfriend and we aren't married, but at least that's not an "abomination" like homosexuality! I'm having an affair, but at least I didn't have her husband killed like King David did!

My whole point here is that while homosexuality may be wrong, so is pride, greed, gossiping, and many other areas that we live in sin. Prideful, greedy, gossipy people can be Christians, and so can homosexuals.

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The topic of this thread is "Homosexuality"...not other sins.

Avniel said:

Romans 1:26-27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

unseemly- indecent: not in keeping with accepted standards of what is right or proper in polite society; "was buried with indecent haste"; "indecorous behavior"; "language unbecoming to a lady"; "unseemly to use profanity"; "moved to curb their untoward ribaldry"

In the bible if you are doing something that is unseemly not right or proper that is called sinning. Do you deny that? Do you deny that the bible has a firm stance on homosexuality.....I am tired of people misusing and manipulating the bible to support their sin.

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The word translated as "unseemly" is [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]aschemosyne,[/FONT] which is better translated as "shameful" than sinful. There are four other passages that use this word or it's variant form [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]aschemoneo[/FONT].

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]

Basically, it is describing not sinfulness*, but social disapproval and/or embarrassment -- especially, the embarrassment of being caught naked or near-naked or while doing something that should remain private.[/FONT] What it suggests is that the sinners in Romans 1 are engaging in public sex and/or orgies. That does not describe gay Christians.

*Notice especially that in 1 Corinthians 12, it is used of the "private parts" of the human body when comparing the Church to the Body, and the point is that even those are vital to the health and glory of the whole body.

Hey you! Ollie Franz! Ya! You!

Um....don't you ever get tired of these homosexuality threads? They are kinda redundant...all the same arguments are constantly being tossed around...translation errors, technicalities, david and jonathon, lack of homosexualit being actually used as a term in the bible, sodom and gomorah...and no ones opinion ever seems to change. Everyone comes into these threads ready to defend their opinions to the death...seems kinda pointless because of that. If everyone is willing to fight to the death, who will be convinced?

So, anyway, I was just wondering...it's been about 8 months since I joined this sight, and I have noticed that you join every single homosexuality thread that I have ever seen posted.

OllieFranz said:

The word translated as "unseemly" is [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]aschemosyne,[/FONT] which is better translated as "shameful" than sinful. There are four other passages that use this word or it's variant form [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]aschemoneo[/FONT].

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely* toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
1 Cor 7:36

And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1 Cor 12:23

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 Cor 13:4-7

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:15[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]

Basically, it is describing not sinfulness*, but social disapproval and/or embarrassment -- especially, the embarrassment of being caught naked or near-naked or while doing something that should remain private.[/FONT] What it suggests is that the sinners in Romans 1 are engaging in public sex and/or orgies. That does not describe gay Christians.

*Notice especially that in 1 Corinthians 12, it is used of the "private parts" of the human body when comparing the Church to the Body, and the point is that even those are vital to the health and glory of the whole body.

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so you dnt think homosexuality is against God?

See what Romans 1 says to believers. It describes all wickedness and ungodliness of people who have turned away from the truth of God, and it describes what they do when this happens. Homosexuality, men with men instead of the natural use with women, (remember God created man and woman to be united) is error and one of those things.

So Romans 1 tells believers that saying homosexuality (or any of those sins) is not a sin, is an example of thinking has become has become futile.

Now believers are also told elsewhere some of what accompanies this.
There is an attempt to claim what belongs to Christ when it doesn't
"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires." - Galatians 5:24

There are attempts to prentend it is uncertain.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; - Galatians 5:19

and its boasts by appealing to things like love.
"For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error." - 2 Peter 2:18.

Is it a case of defending the truth? If forces are at work which can deny what the Bible says and even what the lobbying leaders say by ripping pages out, there are obviously forces at work determined to destroy and silence God's word.
As believers and disciples of Christ we are keen on witnessing the truth so that anyone open to it may receive.

Phinehas2 said:

Is it a case of defending the truth? If forces are at work which can deny what the Bible says and even what the lobbying leaders say by ripping pages out, there are obviously forces at work determined to destroy and silence God's word.
As believers and disciples of Christ we are keen on witnessing the truth so that anyone open to it may receive.

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I agree with you a 100%. I have a issue with pride im not going to defend my sin with the bible im going to own up to it and ask God to forgive me so i can be right

I-can-see said:

Hey you! Ollie Franz! Ya! You!

Um....don't you ever get tired of these homosexuality threads? They are kinda redundant...all the same arguments are constantly being tossed around...translation errors, technicalities, david and jonathon, lack of homosexualit being actually used as a term in the bible, sodom and gomorah...and no ones opinion ever seems to change. Everyone comes into these threads ready to defend their opinions to the death...seems kinda pointless because of that. If everyone is willing to fight to the death, who will be convinced?

So, anyway, I was just wondering...it's been about 8 months since I joined this sight, and I have noticed that you join every single homosexuality thread that I have ever seen posted.

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I can't speak for Ollie of course but one of the reasons I partake in these threads again and again despite the same old posts and same old arguments for and against is I don't think it's fair to see gay people constantly bashed by Christians who sometimes post things that are beyond unloving. Before someone jumps down my throat I do want to point out that certain people in this thread have put across their opinion on homosexuality being a sin respectfully and in a manner that is polite, however some of the vitriol spewed by others is despicable. I feel the need to post and defend as it's always good to defend the rights of others. If people had given up on the slavery debate because the "same debates were being used against it all the time" the world would be a different place.

HaloHope said:

I can't speak for Ollie of course but one of the reasons I partake in these threads again and again despite the same old posts and same old arguments for and against is I don't think it's fair to see gay people constantly bashed by Christians who sometimes post things that are beyond unloving. Before someone jumps down my throat I do want to point out that certain people in this thread have put across their opinion on homosexuality being a sin respectfully and in a manner that is polite, however some of the vitriol spewed by others is despicable.

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I believe homosexuality is a sin but I believe some of the more vitriolic and judgmental comments against them as people (and not just against their sins) is just as sinful, if not more so as it violates the Greatest Commandment that Jesus left for us. That they do this supposedly in the name of God makes it even worse.

HaloHope said:

I don't think it's fair to see gay people constantly bashed by Christians who sometimes post things that are beyond unloving.

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ziggy29 said:

I believe homosexuality is a sin but I believe some of the more vitriolic and judgmental comments against them as people (and not just against their sins) is just as sinful, if not more so as it violates the Greatest Commandment that Jesus left for us. That they do this supposedly in the name of God makes it even worse.

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Yes and yes. The sin of pride and the dismissal of the second greatest commandment is much more of a concern for the future of Christianity than any sexual sin.