Great Red Dragon

NightHawkeye

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Revelation 12:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Surprisingly, this is the only place in the entire Bible using the term red dragon. Although the color red is often associated with dragon, it would seem that its usage here might be significant.

Various people have historically associated the ten horns with European/Roman countries. The third part of the stars of Heaven would also be consistent with the span of European countries across the globe including Russia.

All these countries are now socialist/communist thus also establishing a red association.

Thoughts?
 
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Revelation 12:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Surprisingly, this is the only place in the entire Bible using the term red dragon. Although the color red is often associated with dragon, it would seem that its usage here might be significant.

Various people have historically associated the ten horns with European/Roman countries. The third part of the stars of Heaven would also be consistent with the span of European countries across the globe including Russia.

All these countries are now socialist/communist thus also establishing a red association.

Thoughts?
spotted leopard=usa
strong bear= russia
lion=eu
dragon=china
 
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NJBeliever

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The kingdom of the antichrist is global. The European connection is certainly to Rome, but only in the historic sense. The antichrist will work in a global confederacy with 10 regional world rulers. Then after a time, they will turn over all power to the antichrist who will then be a global dictator. This is all stated in Revelation 17.

The Red Dragon of Rev 12 is Satan, who will supernaturally empower the antichrist and start a campaign to wipe Israel off the map.
 
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Zadok7000

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The kingdom of the antichrist is global. The European connection is certainly to Rome, but only in the historic sense. The antichrist will work in a global confederacy with 10 regional world rulers. Then after a time, they will turn over all power to the antichrist who will then be a global dictator. This is all stated in Revelation 17.

The Red Dragon of Rev 12 is Satan, who will supernaturally empower the antichrist and start a campaign to wipe Israel off the map.


Satan is the anti (false) christ. He will be very visibly cast out. But that's a bit of a hijack...
 
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Bible2

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Thoughts?

Revelation 12:3 refers to Lucifer/Satan in his true, dragon form (Revelation 12:9, Revelation 20:2). Lucifer and his angels will be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good mid-tribulation, after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in beautiful, gleaming spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy all of the 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures (which the world could see as "aliens") which will have been slaughtering a third of mankind (Revelation 9:17-18). Lucifer could say that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received by the world as the saviors of mankind.

The world could at first see the dragon Lucifer and his angels as merely different aliens, more powerful than the horse-like aliens. The world could think that Lucifer and his angels are (in the world's words) "come to visit the earth and help mankind to survive this awful tribulation. They will bring us to the next level of scientific advancement and to the next level of spiritual enlightenment". The New Agers could even welcome them with open arms as the "Ascended Masters" come in person to bring mankind into "the New Age". Lucifer and his angels themselves could explain to the world that they aren't aliens in the sense of material beings from somewhere else in the galaxy, but are a higher order of (in their words) "wholly-beneficent" spiritual beings come from the third-heaven spiritual realm (outside of the material universe) to rescue mankind.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the miracle-working False Prophet of the Antichrist, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast), and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a mark of the Antichrist on their right hand or forehead, consisting of the name of the Antichrist or the number of his name (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist will turn the world against YHWH, the God of the Bible, speaking terrible things against him (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist could lie and say that it was YHWH who sent against mankind the awful alien creatures (and all the preceding, natural disasters of the tribulation: Revelation 6:12-14, Revelation 8:7-12), when in fact it could be Lucifer and his fallen angels who did all of that from behind the scenes, so that they could subsequently arrive on the world stage as if they were the good guys come to rescue mankind.

They could promise mankind that they will help mankind to defeat YHWH and to escape (what they could call) "YHWH's vile prisonhouse of this material universe, and return to the heavenly, spiritual realm of bliss, the Pleroma, where mankind existed in pure-spirit form from all eternity, before by some mishap mankind fell into YHWH's trap and became enmeshed in the material realm". This lie is what Gnosticism teaches. The Antichrist will be Gnostic, for he will revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) and deny that Christ is flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will at the same time also be Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist could present him to the world as (in his words) "Our Lord Lucifer, the Savior of mankind. He will free us from YHWH's tyranny and lead us back into the Pleroma to live in bliss forever".

After Lucifer and the Antichrist have completely deceived the world and ruled it ruthlessly for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send his vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Near the end of the vials of wrath, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince all the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and defeat Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH, John 10:30), returns from heaven and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-15, Revelation 19:21). Jesus will at that time also defeat the Antichrist himself and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).
 
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NightHawkeye

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The Red Dragon of Rev 12 is Satan, who will supernaturally empower the antichrist and start a campaign to wipe Israel off the map.
Zadok7000 said:
Satan is the anti (false) christ. He will be very visibly cast out. But that's a bit of a hijack...
Bible2 said:
Revelation 12:3 refers to Lucifer/Satan in his true, dragon form ...
Yet, from context it appears that Satan can not equal the Red Dragon.

Revelation 12:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns in Bible prophecy refer to rulers and kingdoms and is very similar to the description of the Beast.

Revelation 13:
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These appear to be the same beast with the crowns moving from the seven heads to the ten horns. I'm just not sure I understand the significance of the shift.
 
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Zadok7000

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Exactly. The heads/horns/crowns are indicitive of a governmental structure, so those parallels are there for a reason. But the dragon is clearly also one of Satan's many names (12:9, 20:2). IMO, Rev. 12:1-4 occured in the distant past (the world that was; 1st age) and at that time Satan and his government were intricately linked - basically they were one and the same. When he is cast out, he quickly heals the beast system - it's his "baby" so to speak. This is why there is a mark of the beast in the hand (working for his government) as well as the forehead (worshipping Satan himself). It's a means to an end for him. The end being worshipped as Lord and ursurping our Father.
 
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NJBeliever

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Yet, from context it appears that Satan can not equal the Red Dragon.

Revelation 12:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

The seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns in Bible prophecy refer to rulers and kingdoms and is very similar to the description of the Beast.

Revelation 13:
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

These appear to be the same beast with the crowns moving from the seven heads to the ten horns. I'm just not sure I understand the significance of the shift.

Ah but it's not the same beast. Your own highlighting proves it. In Revelation 12, is a red dragon. In 13 it is a beast. Why the different references? Because in 12 it is signifying Satan. Satan is going to come to Earth and supernaturally empower the antichrist to run the world. The Seven heads and ten horns certainly represent the antichrist power structure but it is powered by Satan, the Dragon. As is always the case in prophetic verses, similarity does not equal sameness. The two chapters are signifying two different periods, the empowerment of the antichrist (whose true purpose is the destruction of Israel) and the reign of the antichrist (administered via the one-world government).

Chapter 13 is solely about the actions of the Beast, aka the Antichrist once in power. He establishes his one world government, religion and economy upon force of death.

Additionally, Satan and the antichrist are not the same being. Simply looking at verses that differentiate them makes this obvious (i.e., Revelation 19.) Those passages prove they are dfifferent beings. After Christ returns the antichrist is destroyed and never heard from again. Satan is imprisoned and comes back 1,000 years later before his final defeat.
 
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Zadok7000

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Satan is going to come to Earth and supernaturally empower the antichrist to run the world.

If his body is cast out of heaven and lands on the earth, what does he need someone else for? The "supernaturally empower" stuff is a myth.

Chapter 13 is solely about the actions of the Beast, aka the Antichrist once in power.

There are 2 beasts in Rev. 13. Beast from the sea = one world government. Beast from the earth = false Christ.
 
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NightHawkeye

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There are 2 beasts in Rev. 13. Beast from the sea = one world government. Beast from the earth = false Christ.
Great. Thanks again, Zadok. That seems about right. Depending on who one supposes the "woman" to be, there are a number of possible nuances, of course.
 
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Bible2

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These appear to be the same beast with the crowns moving from the seven heads to the ten horns.

There's no moving of the crowns (Revelation 12:3, Revelation 13:1), because the dragon and the beast are two different entities: the dragon gives his power to the beast (Revelation 13:2) and is worshipped along with the beast (Revelation 13:4). Also, the dragon and the beast are shown as two separate entities with separate mouths in Revelation 16:13. Also, the beast is cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before the dragon is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20-20:10).

The seven heads of Revelation 12:3 are the literal heads of the dragon Satan in his true form (Revelation 12:9, Revelation 20:2), while the seven heads of the symbolic leopard-like beast in Revelation 13:1-2 are the symbolic heads of the kingdom of Satan as it has been made by him in his image down through the ages during seven past empires (Revelation 17:9-10). The future expression of the kingdom of Satan through the coming 42-month world-empire of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10) will be like an eighth head (Revelation 17:11).
 
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NJBeliever

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If his body is cast out of heaven and lands on the earth, what does he need someone else for? The "supernaturally empower" stuff is a myth.

Why is Satan establishing a government at all? Why does satan want worship? Why does Satan try to achieve world peace? Because he wants to be God. So he too will have a "seed" who will be empowered by him to spread his false gospel and bring him worship.

There are 2 beasts in Rev. 13. Beast from the sea = one world government. Beast from the earth = false Christ.

The beast is a man in revelation. Not a government. Do you really think it's a government building being thrown in the lake of fire in Revelation 19??
 
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Zadok7000

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Why is Satan establishing a government at all? Why does satan want worship? Why does Satan try to achieve world peace? Because he wants to be God.

Yup, with you so far.

So he too will have a "seed" who will be empowered by him to spread his false gospel and bring him worship.

Problem is, that is nowhere in the Bible. Satan is cast out physically, right? He can spread his gospel just fine himself. He comes with his army of fallen angels - no flesh men need to be "empowered". Only Satan can perform the wonders and miracles described.

The beast is a man in revelation. Not a government. Do you really think it's a government building being thrown in the lake of fire in Revelation 19??

You cannot simply say "the beast"; there are 2.
 
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Brad2009

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spotted leopard=usa
strong bear= russia
lion=eu
dragon=china

I disagree. These same symbols are used in Daniel and I think its extremely unlikely that they have shifted meanings.

Lion = Babylonian empire
Bear = Medio-Persian empire
Leopard = Greek empire

I actually think that the reference in Revelation is a reference to the geographical areas corresponding with the peak of each of these empires.

But, I don't equate the first beast of Revelation with Daniel's fourth beast (despite the similar 10 horns). I think that the fourth beast is clearly the Roman Empire, but the first beast of Revelation is the Byzantine empire.

The areas controlled by the Byzantine empire fit nicely with the description in Revelation (like a leopard with feet of a bear, mouth of a lion, seven heads and ten horns) because the Byzantine Empire controlled part of former Medio-Persia, part of former Babylon, almost all of former Greece and almost all of former Rome. The Byzantine Empire (also known as the Eastern Roman Empire) also shared the form of Roman authority (hence the shared characteristic of having 10 horns) and re-took Rome after its fall in the 5th century (a head having a fatal wound which was healed). An approximate reign of 1260 years is also fullfilled by the length of Byzantine/Eastern Roman authority.

The blasphemous titles are, IMO, fulfilled by the division of the "church" into major "sees" by the Catholics. I don't believe man ever had the authority to proclaim certain men and certain political systems to be holy, and the blasphemous titles correspond to this arrogance. The legalization and codification of Christianity as the official religion of the Byzantine Empire under Constantine is a decent starting point in understanding this point IMO.

Well, I've said my piece; please hold to anything you find good. And please post rebuttal for anything you find untrue - for one man sharpens another.
 
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JesusServant

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Great. Thanks again, Zadok. That seems about right. Depending on who one supposes the "woman" to be, there are a number of possible nuances, of course.


Not if you're talking about the sign of the woman who appears in heaven in Revelation 12... that is without a doubt the nation of Israel / the Jewish people... This is proven in Genesis 37:9.

God bless!
-Steve
JS
 
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