If the Gospel is so unique. . .

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

Online friend of mine posted this question on facebook. I think he has a good point.

"If the Gospel is so unique, then why is so much of contemporary Christianity culturally derivative?"

To be clear he is speaking of not only CCM but also worship, T-shirts, books, movies, art etc.

I think perhaps he has pointed out one of the main reasons I don't like Contemporary ("Pop") Christianity.

trentlogain2 · Jul 7, 2010

because people are always trying to create an atmosphere where people will come. at it's very root though the gospel is one of a kind.

Tehchad · Jul 7, 2010

At the very core, God told us to love Him and then love others. That love others part is building relationships. Part of that is making people feel welcome and take a hack at making them feel comfortable.

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

Tehchad said:
At the very core, God told us to love Him and then love others. That love others part is building relationships. Part of that is making people feel welcome and take a hack at making them feel comfortable.

Perhaps but do you not think that making people feel comfortable by using worldly culture is at odds with the idea that once they become Christians they need to abandon worldly culture.

And I can also say that none of those things ever made me feel comfortable when I became a Christian.

I personally don't think we need these things. In fact I don't think I've ever met a non-Christian who thought they where anything but hokey and/or lame. I think there is benefit to having your own culture that isn't derived from worldly sources.

trentlogain2 · Jul 7, 2010

Tehchad said:
At the very core, God told us to love Him and then love others. That love others part is building relationships. Part of that is making people feel welcome and take a hack at making them feel comfortable.

don't misunderstand what i'm about to say. i know where you're coming from, but Jesus had thousands of people follow him throughout His public ministry. They continually widdled away though after he made statements like, 'you must deny yourself, pick up your cross if you are to follow me' [mark 8:34] as we know it got to the point where even His closest twelve abandoned Him when everything was on the table. who knows how many people He reached and came into contact with while He was here on earth
[john 21:25]

MacFall · Jul 7, 2010

Luther073082 said:
Perhaps but do you not think that making people feel comfortable by using worldly culture is at odds with the idea that once they become Christians they need to abandon worldly culture.

And I can also say that none of those things ever made me feel comfortable when I became a Christian.

I personally don't think we need these things. In fact I don't think I've ever met a non-Christian who thought they where anything but hokey and/or lame. I think there is benefit to having your own culture that isn't derived from worldly sources.

Not only that, but if we are made in God's image, then we are meant to be creators. So as I see it, it's shameful that Christian culture tends to be full of imitation instead of innovation.

Tehchad · Jul 7, 2010

Luther,
He didn't call us to be worldly. He told us to love. We can sell cool t-shirts and it might connect us with some crowd (emo's come to mind). We can give pens away (my church does this). But it all fades to gray if there isn't a solid message being given by the pastor/leader. It starts with a greeting - saying hi. Then maybe a cup of joe or Mtn Dew - people like coffee. Then we need some music - to praise God and to keep with people's expectations (here in the US anyway, IDK about other parts of the world). Then we need a solid word from God.
If someone is offended that the coffee is from starbuckia (I don't like that part), it doesn't matter. We're not here for starbucks. We are here for time with God and time in His word. Before I was a Christian, I wasn't as comfortable in church. Looking at who I am now, coffee helps. A handshake and "I'm glad to see you" helps.

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

MacFall said:
Not only that, but if we are made in God's image, then we are meant to be creators. So as I see it, it's shameful that Christian culture tends to be full of imitation instead of innovation.

Exactly

And honestly I would really love to see a good solid Christian movie that teaches a Christian message that isn't so lame that I want to rip my hair out.

There was one movie, a movie about some football coach and his wife that was just absolutly terrible. Plus in all honesty I think the movie actually advocated the prosperity heresy. I mean give me a break, his team sucks, and life is tough. Then he decides all of a sudden to give it all to God and BAM . . . he gets everything he ever wants. (What every happened to God's plan not being the same as yours?) His team plays awesome, he gets a truck and a raise and his wife finally gets pregnant. And EVERYONE LOVES HIM. What ever happened to being rejected and or hated because of Jesus's name?

Fireproof had some promise but couldn't itself avoid its own hokey/lame moments. Thanks be to God at least the whole movie wasn't lame.

Personally I think the gospel message could be carried into modern life in much more creative ways.

Before I was a Christian, I wasn't as comfortable in church. Looking at who I am now, coffee helps. A handshake and "I'm glad to see you" helps.

Thats just being friendly and those are good things. But why do we need shirts like "Prayer, Just do it"? Or Jesus's name on a Coca Cola logo.

Also Christianity has its own music, it doesn't need to rip from secular music to make people enjoy it.

trentlogain2 · Jul 7, 2010

i knew there was a reason why i avoided buying facing the giants the other day.

Tehchad · Jul 7, 2010

MacFall said:
So as I see it, it's shameful that Christian culture tends to be full of imitation instead of innovation.

I agree. It's interesting that people desire prosperity but don't want to use their imagination.

Keri · Jul 7, 2010

Luther073082 said:
Online friend of mine posted this question on facebook. I think he has a good point.

"If the Gospel is so unique, then why is so much of contemporary Christianity culturally derivative?"

To be clear he is speaking of not only CCM but also worship, T-shirts, books, movies, art etc.

I think perhaps he has pointed out one of the main reasons I don't like Contemporary ("Pop") Christianity.

That sentence you have in quotes doesn't make sense. Are you asking why Contemporary Christianity is so culturally derived?!

Revived · Jul 7, 2010

Luther073082 said:
Exactly

And honestly I would really love to see a good solid Christian movie that teaches a Christian message that isn't so lame that I want to rip my hair out.

There was one movie, a movie about some football coach and his wife that was just absolutly terrible. Plus in all honesty I think the movie actually advocated the prosperity heresy. I mean give me a break, his team sucks, and life is tough. Then he decides all of a sudden to give it all to God and BAM . . . he gets everything he ever wants. (What every happened to God's plan not being the same as yours?) His team plays awesome, he gets a truck and a raise and his wife finally gets pregnant. And EVERYONE LOVES HIM. What ever happened to being rejected and or hated because of Jesus's name?

Fireproof had some promise but couldn't itself avoid its own hokey/lame moments. Thanks be to God at least the whole movie wasn't lame.

Personally I think the gospel message could be carried into modern life in much more creative ways.

Thats just being friendly and those are good things. But why do we need shirts like "Prayer, Just do it"? Or Jesus's name on a Coca Cola logo.

Also Christianity has its own music, it doesn't need to rip from secular music to make people enjoy it.

With all due respect, why do we need complaining, judging and condemnation? Just love others and let it go.

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

Revived said:
With all due respect, why do we need complaining, judging and condemnation? Just love others and let it go.

Complaining. . . because the movie sucked. Especially when it comes to making movies people need to know that we can do better then this.

Judging . . . I don't think I've judged any person, just their works.

Condemnation . . . I will continue to condemn the prosperity heresy and all other heresies that continue to distress and destroy the church. I therefore condemn the works that advocate them.

MacFall · Jul 7, 2010

Luther073082 said:
But why do we need shirts like "Prayer, Just do it"? Or Jesus's name on a Coca Cola logo.

I used to work at a Christian book and merchandise warehouse. There was no end to the lame slogans and catchphrases one found on teeshirts.

Some of my favorites:

"Jesus wants YouTuBe free"
"Jesus died for MySpace in Heaven"
"Got Jesus?" (c'mon, really??)
Over a Coke logo ripoff: "Jesus is the REAL THING!"
"Jesus is my LifeLock"

I could probably remember more, but I'd probably pull a muscle from all the flinching. I'm convinced that these things are being produced by secular companies who know that American Christians will buy anything with "Jesus" on it.

b.hopeful · Jul 7, 2010

Paul said " To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win Jews...To those not having the law, I became like one not having the law....To the weak, I became weak. I have become all things to all men that by all possible means I might save some. I do this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in it's blessings."(1 Cor 9:20-23)

In order to win them, he served them on their terms. That is Paul's description of apostleship. And didn't he model that from God? Didn't God become man incarnate to reach us? Doesn't Christianity have a history of infusing other cultures and having them "become new"?

MacFall · Jul 7, 2010

I would say rather that the Church has a history of allowing itself to be corrupted by the secular cultures it encounters. It's one thing for an individual Christian to observe the manners and customs of his location; it's quite another for the Church to corporately and consciously adopt or imitate secular culture.

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

b.hopeful said:
In order to win them, he served them on their terms. That is Paul's description of apostleship. And didn't he model that from God? Didn't God become man incarnate to reach us? Doesn't Christianity have a history of infusing other cultures and having them "become new"?

Serving someone on their terms - (In other words in the ways that they need to be served.) is not the same thing at all as creating a culture that is created based mostly on secular influences.

I think McFall is right, I think there are alot of companies out there that just come up with lame T-shirts and other things knowing that American Christians will often buy anything that says "Jesus" on it.

I would say rather that the Church has a history of allowing itself to be corrupted by the secular cultures it encounters. It's one thing for an individual Christian to observe the manners and customs of his location; it's quite another for the Church to corporately and consciously adopt or imitate secular culture.

Very true, for how long was the church caught up strongly in the politics of the state? For how long did the church struggle for power alongside and sometimes against secular rulers?

Inkachu · Jul 7, 2010

Excellent thread, Kirk!

And we wonder why we're losing so many people (especially the younger generation) to things like Wicca and Middle Eastern religions. And why so many Christians are going back to the roots of Judaism and the more orthodox beliefs. It's because they LONG for something different!

So much for "come ye apart" with modern-day Christianity, you know?

Anyway, I totally agree with ya.

b.hopeful · Jul 7, 2010

You are focusing on this modern incarnation....I'm pointing out that this is a continuation of the early church. Go into communities and become like them to win them over on their terms. I disagree that it is any different than hijacking the Christmas tree or Easter bunny and eggs...or any part of Greek mythology or Celtic lore. I believe it's called being effective. What is "american culture" today? Music, videos, tv, movies,clothes....what would the church need to infect today to become effective?

How many people here have a shirt they bought for the 4th of July that has Old Navy printed on the front? Americans like labels......you prefer they advertise Old Navy over Christ? I just don't see the big deal. You are likely to wear something with an exposed label...you are going to listen to music...you are going to rent and buy cd's....you are going to serve somebody...you are going to line the pockets of someone....why not be on fire for your Maker instead of Hollister...or God forbid, Nickelback?

I don't think they are creating a new culture by any stretch....the are infusing and renewing an existing culture...and that habit is as old as Christianity.

Luther073082 · Jul 7, 2010

One can create T-shirts without ripping off of someone else's ideas and logos. Thats the problem. It seems like most of Christian culture in music, shirts, or even movies either rips off of other people's ideas, logos, formula's etc. Or if it does try something new its done very poorly.

There are probably exceptions you can find, but as a general rule, most of it is a rip-off from someone else.

And the books, those are ridiculous. It seems like modern Christian books do one of a couple things.

They either state the obvious, create legalisms that are not biblically based, use massive generalisms, or themselves are extremely hokey.

For example there are some Christian books for men out there that are so hokey that they encourage men to think like romanitic fictional hero archeotypes. I mean telling men to be a Cowboy. . . Thats all well and good, except actual cowboys that actually existed led violent lifestyles, where not accustomed to "wholesome language" - (They cussed a lot), and liked to spend their money on gambling, alcohol, and prostitues. Hardly a Christian lifestlye. And nothing is sadder then creating romantic heroic archeotypes that never really existed and not putting in enough effort into reasearch to realize that cowboys where not really the people you want Christian men to model their life after. But the writers of these books don't let pesky things such as REALITY get in the way of telling every man what legalisms he has follow to be a "real man".

Also I don't like how some people can become Christian idols. Can anyone tell me why in the world I saw Sarah Palin's book in a Christian book store? She's a political figure and the book was a political book. She may be Christian but the book wasn't even really about that so much.

And here is the thing. . . for the most part, I LIKE SARAH PALIN. I'm a conservative and she is a conservative politcal figure that the media loves to hate. But she gets a lot of conservative Christians behind her . . . which is fine; and suddenly Christian bookstores are selling her book which isn't even focused on God. And thats not fine, thats taking your faith and your politics and mixing them WAY too much.

If the Gospel is so unique. . .

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