Heb 6:4-6 does it present a problem for calvanism?

"For is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

If this does not describe Christians then I would say there is no such thing as a Christian. The Hebrew writer goes on to say about these Christians "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".

If these people were never Christians(never saved) then how can they fall when they are already fallen? And what is it these never saved people fall away from? If they were never saved, how can they be renewed again when they have never been renewed a first time?

jmacvols said:

"For is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,"

If this does not describe Christians then I would say there is no such thing as a Christian. The Hebrew writer goes on to say about these Christians "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".

If these people were never Christians(never saved) then how can they fall when they are already fallen? And what is it these never saved people fall away from? If they were never saved, how can they be renewed again when they have never been renewed a first time?

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Again!

Context, context, context.

To whom was the book of Hebrews written to?

And what was it addressing?

Arthur W. Pink in his "Exposition of Hebrews" does an excellent job explaining these verses.

Here it is.

He also addresses the issue of the Holy Spirit in the same passages here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

Arthur W. Pink in his "Exposition of Hebrews" does an excellent job explaining these verses.

Here it is.

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As expected, we find that the philosophical presuppositions underlying Reformed theology yet again bring about an interpretation that is circular and self-justifying:

[quote="Professor" Pink]Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God."[/quote]

Notice how the issues of the passage are easily wiped away because of the lack of specificity on the biblical author's part to distinguish these as belonging to a category of persons which the Reformed understand as being chosen by God for salvation. But the very invocation of such an argument shows that Pink (and the Reformed) have already found what they set out looking for in approaching this passage with their philosophical prejudices leading the way. One need only expect to find (or not find) discussion of "election" [the Reformed understanding of it, that is] if one, in fact, presumes that this concept is in anyway meaningful within a soteriological context.

If one dismisses such a philosophical prejudice, however, the questions raised in the OP and responses to it are yet unanswered, even after the blustering and obfuscation donated to theology by Pink.

For a clue to this passage, one needs merely to go back to the beginning:
6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching of Christ... not laying a foundation of repentance...

From my view, depthdeception and jmacvols are right, in that this is a problem to the extreme Calvinist. I call it that, because I myself am a Calvinist - that is, until I talk with them and many of them inevitably push me back toward the middle. The extreme calvinist who believes that God is absolutely sovereign in salvation, meaning that God first regenerates people, gives faith to them and they believe, and because of faith given from God, they persevere to the end and are never lost, has a problem with how God can give the Holy Spirit and then they fall away. Unless we are misunderstanding what is meant by "fall away."

Deacon, I will download A.W. Pink's commentary to read. Haven't read it yet; this is a quick look at this, but I will. I think I've probably heard what he will say. Over the decades I've read many many times what Christians on both sides say in their attempts to rationalize what they wish the author of Hebrews had never said. I've only found one that seems to get the real intent of the author.

jmacvols has a problem with this as well, although he doesn't identify it. When the scripture says "it is impossible to renew them to repentance..." now they are ordained to death with no possibility of parole. Sorry, Jm, it says what it says. Let God's word be true, even though all of us are liars. Maybe not liars, but just too dependent on logic and theologies.

Isn't God's Word wonderful! in that it doesn't line up with our theologies, no matter the camp! It's almost like He wanted us to walk in the Spirit, in dependence on His enlightenment to the exclusion of our own stinkin' thinkin'.

Almost.

DeaconDean said:

Again!

Context, context, context.

To whom was the book of Hebrews written to?

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to Christians "brethren", Heb 3:1

deacondean said:

And what was it addressing?

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the Hebrew writer is admonishing these Christians to not fall away = Heb 2:1-3; Heb 3:1-12; Heb 4:1; 4:11; Heb 6:4-6.

deacondean said:

Arthur W. Pink in his "Exposition of Hebrews" does an excellent job explaining these verses.

Here it is.

He also addresses the issue of the Holy Spirit in the same passages here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Click to expand...

Pink will not understand this simple verse for it refutes his false ideas.

'taste of the heavenly gift' this gift is the free gift of salvation.

Again, if these people were never saved and were always lost how can they fall when they are already fallen, what do they fall away from, how can they be renewed again if they have never been renewed?

Hupomone10 said:

jmacvols has a problem with this as well, although he doesn't identify it. When the scripture says "it is impossible to renew them to repentance..." now they are ordained to death with no possibility of parole. Sorry, Jm, it says what it says. Let God's word be true, even though all of us are liars. Maybe not liars, but just too dependent on logic and theologies.

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First, in Acts 8 Simon repented of his sin of trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost

Secondly, the context in Heb 6 tells us why it is impossible - "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

--We have to understand that Christ is the motivating reason one repents.

--the verbs 'crucify' and 'put' are in the Greek present tense, so they are in a continuous, ongoing state of crucifying and putting to shame the motivating reason to repent, and as long as they remain in this state it is impossible for them to repent. But if they quit crucifying and putting to shame Christ, and nothing says this is impossible, then they would be able to repent.

It is similar to Jesus telling the Pharisees to repent and believe. Belief comes before repentance, but here Jesus is telling them to repent of their hard heart so they could then believe and realize their lost state, then repent of their sins, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32.33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16. As long as they continued to hate Christ and maintained an ongoing hard heart, it would be impossible for them to come to salvation.

jmacvols said:

If this does not describe Christians then I would say there is no such thing as a Christian. The Hebrew writer goes on to say about these Christians "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".

If these people were never Christians(never saved) then how can they fall when they are already fallen? And what is it these never saved people fall away from? If they were never saved, how can they be renewed again when they have never been renewed a first time?

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It is truly hard to see how one can argue with such simple observations.

I know that I struggled with this very same verse long ago. The light came on when a brother ponted out something 'in context' with the rest of the passage which no one speaks of.

HEB 6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

This part of the passage sheds light on the difficulty with 6:4-6. We are initially born again and saved spirits...period. We then begin to work out the salvation of our souls with fear and trembling. We can take 3 steps forward today in that salvation process and then backslide to our beginning point...or even worse. But this verse makes the connection that WE are the LAND we are not that which grows ON the land. And if we produce good vegetation (gold, silver, precious stones) we'll recieve rewards at judgment. But if we produce thorns and thistles (wood, hay, stubble) we will suffer a loss. Not a loss of 'going to heaven' in thehereafter but a loss of 'rewards in heaven'.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation/LAND can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones (good vegetation in Heb 6), wood, hay, straw (thorns, thistles Heb6) -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

To combine the understanding of both of these verses which are stumbling blocks to both camps we come to a conclusion understood by few IMO. Your spirit is eternally saved and secure at rebirth. Your soul can have all of it's works burned up even though your spirit shall be saved

1CO 3:14 If the (soulish) work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself (spirit man) will be saved, but only as through fire.

I live in farm country. And when the farmers burn a field of weeds/wheat stubble off in the fall...the ground is not hurt. WE are the LAND in Heb 6: 4-14.

~Hillsage~

It might change the way you look at the passage if you first consider the context... 1st century Hebrews who are hearing of Christianity, recognizing the facts of the Messiah, realizing that their sacrificial system has been done away with (by the perfect and final sacrifice of Christ), and yet going back to it anyways. I think that is the best contextual description of the situation. Also note that "fall away" is παραπίπτω, which I believe would be better translated as "sin".

In the LXX, the verb occurs eight times, as well as a few times in apocryphal books. The majority of occurrences are in Ezra, and all mean "a mistake", or simply "sin". The noun form παράπτωμα occurs 19 times in the LXX. It is interesting to note that its Masoretic equivalent is used in Daniel 6:5 not in relation to a "mistake to God", but rather a mistake in official matters. In Job 36:9, παραπτώματα is used to refer to "transgressions", which although plural, can also denote it's use referring to one specific sin. A similar verse would be Ezekiel 14:11, in which παραπτώμασιν is used with פשע being its Hebrew equivalent.

The word group wasn't very significant among philosophy, the only interesting information I see is that its noun was used to mean "to befall".

Gerhard Kittel said:

"The verb παραπίπτω occurs only in Heb. 6:6 : (6:4) Ἀδύνατον γὰρ τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας ... (6:6) καὶ παραπεσόντας πάλιν ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν. Although the sense seems to be "fallen away", along the lines of ἀποστῆναι ἀπὸ θεοῦ ζῶντος in 3:12, παραπίπτω does not mean "to fall away", but "to offend," "to fall," "to sin," as in the LXX. In elucidation one may adduce Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων in the related Hb. 10:26, especially as the reference in both cases is not to specific offenses as such, but to these as the expression of a total attitude."

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Gerhard Kittel, volume 6, pp. 170-172

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Thus, when a Jew came to an understanding of Christianity and accepted it as truth, and was on the brink of entrusting themselves to it, they sinned, and instead of turning to Christ as their atonement, they turned to animal sacrifices again, they were forever lost and unable to renew themselves, because the animal sacrifices had since ceased at the death of Christ. The writer states this clearly in chapter 10:

Hbr 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Christ was already offered. There is no more offering. And to make another offering would be to "trample under foot the Son of God", and "regard as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified", and to "insult the Spirit of grace".

I think this makes the best sense contextually.

depthdeception said:

<staff edit>

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I don't see my interpretation of the text aligning with anything you have described above about how I will act. I presupposed nothing about Calvinism and instead based my entire interpretation on context and historical accuracy. A defense against the claims of those who deny Calvinism is just a byproduct, as is my identification as a Calvinist altogether.

Hillsage said:

It is truly hard to see how one can argue with such simple observations.

I know that I struggled with this very same verse long ago. The light came on when a brother ponted out something 'in context' with the rest of the passage which no one speaks of.

Click to expand...

There is no doubt that these people are saved Christians, the language describing them is undeniable. They would have to be saved in order to fall and be renewed again.

Hillsage said:

HEB 6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

Click to expand...

Hillsage said:

This part of the passage sheds light on the difficulty with 6:4-6. We are initially born again and saved spirits...period. We then begin to work out the salvation of our souls with fear and trembling. We can take 3 steps forward today in that salvation process and then backslide to our beginning point...or even worse. But this verse makes the connection that WE are the LAND we are not that which grows ON the land. And if we produce good vegetation (gold, silver, precious stones) we'll recieve rewards at judgment. But if we produce thorns and thistles (wood, hay, stubble) we will suffer a loss. Not a loss of 'going to heaven' in thehereafter but a loss of 'rewards in heaven'.

Click to expand...

I do not agree with this though. Prior to Heb 6, they are warned "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Also "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." This is loss of salvation, those that are in unbelief will be lost. These Christians are said to fall away. Fall away is a reference to being lost, falling away, ie, departing from the living God. They would also have to be renewed again by repentance. Until they are renewed they are lost being "unrenewed" in their unrepented of sins. Paul never says anything about "losing rewards" in this passage.

In verses 7 and 8, the argument is if these Christians allow themselves to be overgrown with thorns and briers then they, (like land that is overgrown with thorns is burned by men), will also be burned (lost) on judgment day. Therefore they should maintain producing fruits to keep from being overgrown with thorns and being burned.

Hillsage said:

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation/LAND can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones (good vegetation in Heb 6), wood, hay, straw (thorns, thistles Heb6) -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

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Hillsage said:

To combine the understanding of both of these verses which are stumbling blocks to both camps we come to a conclusion understood by few IMO. Your spirit is eternally saved and secure at rebirth. Your soul can have all of it's works burned up even though your spirit shall be saved

1CO 3:14 If the (soulish) work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself (spirit man) will be saved, but only as through fire.

I live in farm country. And when the farmers burn a field of weeds/wheat stubble off in the fall...the ground is not hurt. WE are the LAND in Heb 6: 4-14.

~Hillsage~

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In the context of 1 Cor 3, the word "work" refers to converts.

Note the following. In verse 9 Paul metaphorically refers to the church as a 'building' and a 'temple' in verse 16. What Paul is doing in this context is making a metaphorical comparison between building a building and building the church.

Paul laid the foundation of the building and others came behind Paul and built upon that foundation. Likewise, Paul laid the foundation of the church at Corinth by making the initial converts. Others came behind Paul and built upon that foundation by making more converts. The way the church is "constructed" or built is by doing the work of making converts. In 1 Cor 9:1 Paul refers to these Corinthian converts he made as his "work".

On judgment day these works/converts will be judged, that is, tried by fire. Those works/converts that remained faithful will be saved and the one that worked for that saved convert will receive a reward. On the other hand, if the work/convert is judged to be lost, then the one that made that convert himself will not be lost as long as he remains faithful but he will suffer a sense of loss over his work/convert. Example, Paul was afraid his work (making converts) was in vain in Galatia, Gal 4:11. If Paul's Galatian converts are lost on judgment day, Paul himself will not be lost as long as he remains faithful (1 Cor 9:27) but he will suffer a sense of loss over those Galatians. On the other hand, if Paul's Galatian converts are saved, Paul will recieve a reward for them.

Hammster said:

For those who think this passage means you can lose your salvation will also have to admit that if you lose it, you can never be saved again.

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Not true. From post #8 in this thread:


First, in Acts 8 Simon repented of his sin of trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost

Secondly, the context in Heb 6 tells us why it is impossible - "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

--We have to understand that Christ is the motivating reason one repents.

--the verbs 'crucify' and 'put' are in the Greek present tense, so they are in a continuous, ongoing state of crucifying and putting to shame the motivating reason to repent, and as long as they remain in this state it is impossible for them to repent. But if they quit crucifying and putting to shame Christ, and nothing says this is impossible, then they would be able to repent.

It is similar to Jesus telling the Pharisees to repent and believe. Belief comes before repentance, but here Jesus is telling them to repent of their hard heart so they could then believe and realize their lost state, then repent of their sins, Lk 13:3,5, confess, Mt 10:32.33 and be baptized, Mk 16:16. As long as they continued to hate Christ and maintained an ongoing hard heart, it would be impossible for them to come to salvation.

RobertZ said:

I agree that this passage isnt speaking of true born again christians, rather it is speaking about those who were enlightened by the spirit but then turned and walked away forfeiting their chance for salvation.

Now, do calvanist not argue that the Holy Spirit only works in the elect? If this is true then what is going on in Hebrews 6:4-6 where we see the Holy Spirit working in those who say no and walk away?

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see thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7479163/

Jesusfreak5000 said:

I presupposed nothing about Calvinism and instead based my entire interpretation on context and historical accuracy.

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Here we go again...

I thought we were making progress in realigning your epistemology, but apparently not. Oh well

Hammster said:

For those who think this passage means you can lose your salvation will also have to admit that if you lose it, you can never be saved again.

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I don't think it has anything to do with losing salvation. Far too many individual's minds are locked into the small categories of Reformed and Arminian theology. Surely it is possible to read the Scriptures apart from such...

depthdeception said:

Here we go again...

I thought we were making progress in realigning your epistemology, but apparently not. Oh well

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lol. Be honest with me here. Can you not see the presuppositions of the Arminian against the Calvinist here? They see the terms "fall away" and immediately jump on it for no other reason than that. In my explanation, I looked at the history and etymological background of the word, as well as the context and history concerning the Hebrews at that time period concerning their relations with Christians. If anything I would hope you might admit I made at least an effort to approach the text from an unbiased viewpoint. I mention nothing about Calvinism, nor soteriology at all.

jm :

Secondly, the context in Heb 6 tells us why it is impossible - "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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Thats talking about the stoney heart hearers, they never had root in Christ in the first place.

matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended

They only believe for a while !

Lk 8:13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Thats what heb 6 and heb 10 are referring to, those hebrews in the first century who were merely stony ground hearers, their faith will not last, because it is not from a Divine Source.

anthony55 said:

jm :



Thats talking about the stoney heart hearers, they never had root in Christ in the first place.

matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended

They only believe for a while !

Lk 8:13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Thats what heb 6 and heb 10 are referring to, those hebrews in the first century who were merely stony ground hearers, their faith will not last, because it is not from a Divine Source.

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Heb 6 talks about those who were:

1)enlightened - Acts 26:18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2)tasted of the heavenly gift, - the gift of salvation.



3)made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"

These holy brethren were also partakers of the heavenly calling. They were called by the gospel and answered it.