What about the breaking of bread?

I think the point that filo is making is that grapes are not the only fruit of the vine.

RobsBabe said:

I would like to know why the common cup. Seems like with H1N1 and such things, people would shrink back from that. I didn't read of Jesus doing any such thing... ??

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Scripture makes clear that Jesus used one cup in the institution of the sacrament. But there is also the communal aspect of the many coming together to partake of the one cup.

As for the possibility of spreading disease, I have never heard of any case over the 2 millenium history of the Church of anyone contracting a deadly disease from receiving the blood of Jesus Christ.

The common cup most commonly used is silver plated which has some antiseptic properties. The alcohol in the wine has some antiseptic properties. So the possibility of transmitting viruses or bacteria in such is greatly reduced.
If we look at the individual cups, either glass or plastic (which I loathe), while the wine does have some antiseptic properties, the vessles do not. In fact, they are handled by the altar guild people who set them up and fill them, then the people who come to the rail pick them up with their fingers after they have handled the rail which everyone else in the church has also handled, and then put their lips on them to drink. The bottom line is that the common cup is much more sanitary than the individual cups.

I use the individual cups for one reason - a fear of accidentally getting the wine/Christ's blood spilled all over me or the floor. That would bother me terribly.

Speaking as one raised in Judaism, my two cents...

RobsBabe said:

I know that in the Bible, wine is wine and not grape juice. I know the bread is unleavened (which I guess is a cracker). But how exactly did they eat it then? Was a chunk of bread passed around in the upper room that night and broken by each person? Or were chunks of already-broken bread passed around in a bowl? OR did Jesus break the chunk himself and pass it around? Does it matter?

I know we can be picky when it comes to wine; just wondered if it matters how and in what form we eat the bread. I'm sure there were no little round flat disks back then. Or little Chicklet-shaped pie crust pieces, in the case of Baptists.

I also wonder what you do if someone is allergic to grapes. My aunt goes into anaphylactic shock when consuming grapes in any form. What would the Lutheran church give her as an alternative? Dandelion wine or hard cider or something?

Just things I've been wondering.

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OK...the wine was wine, but it most likely was not as fermented as the fortified wine Lutherans and others tend to use. The fermenting process was merely to keep the grape juice from going sour. It is considered unkosher to use leaven or grain (namely yeast) to ferment a wine for a passover meal. The fact that churches tend to neglect tracing whether or not the wine is kosher for passover pretty much annuls the argument that they are doing the communion just like Jesus did passover.

Just exactly how much preservative measure was needed for the kosher wine for Pesach (Passover) in 33AD (or thereabouts) would depend on when the harvest finished and so forth.

As for the bread, it too must be unleavened, but there are of course rules around that too. The bread has to be pierced a certian way and so forth. It must be broken during the Pesach Seder (Passover liturgy) as there is a lot of symbolism and ritual that must be observed- but that's another topic.

I recommend "How Christ said the first Mass" as a book to read to get to the bottom of this, or attend a Jewish Seder some time. Jews for Jesus are probably running one near you next year.

(Then of course there is the argument that the Last Supper was not a Pesach Seder but a normal Kiddush)

I am the biggest clean freak there is. I just started using the common cup last month. I find it helps if I don't watch who has taken it before me (well I know my husband has). If the pastor has done it long enough they just tip it for you to sip so spillage wouldn't occur. Have you ever seen it spilled seajoy?

Nope, never seen it spilled. It's just something in my own head.

Face your fear Could be worse - like that one woman who was taking communion and the host fell down her shirt under her blouse.

We have a little bit of everything at my Lutheran church. My Pastor likes to make sure that everyone who can and wants to receive communion, can. This is what we do:

We use real baked bread that I believe the communion assistants make the day before, and since our church sanctuary is circular, we have four ushers on standing by the four entry-ways to the pulpit with trays of individual cups. In the middle are at least six glasses of grape juice, the rest are empty. We stand in a circle around alter table and the Pastor personally places the bread in our hands while saying "This is the body of Christ, given for you."

Next, the communion assistants walk around the circle distributing the wine. If you have a cup of juice, they will simply tip the common cup slightly towards you but not enough to have it come out. If you have an empty glass, they fill it and say "This is the blood of Christ, shed for you." When finished we turn around and place the individual cups in a basket before returning to our seats. My Pastor is big on recycling so since these cups are plastic, I'm assuming they are either washed and sanitized or taken somewhere to be recycled and new ones come in, but don't quote me on that.

We also, in the center of the communion table, have a small plate of those white wafers that are given to those who can't have glutton, or another type of product that is in the bread. They simply point to that when my Pastor comes around and he switches for them. As for the wine, I have only twice seen two different people refuse the blood of Christ during communion. My guess for those reason are either, they too are allergic to wine but would still like to participate in communion, or we ran out of grape juice in the trays, which has happened a few times. Nevertheless, we never looked down upon them. They just put their hand up respectfully, the communion assistant blessed them and kept going. We try not to let anything hinder someone from participating if you choose too. And for those who have trouble walking, my Pastor makes a special trip to their seat near the end. They know who to go to because with the communion cards that most of us place in the offering basket to say we are giving communion, these people hand the usher the card instead and the usher gives it to the Pastor. This tells him this person needs him to come to them, and since my church is very small, he knows everyone by name and face.

Also, for kids. In the Lutheran tradition we do what's called "first communion" where kids of a certain age learn about what communion is all about in a once a week program. After the program has concluded, usually at the end of the school year, the kids are permitted to take communion. Some churches do different ages but it's a way to help older children who are maturing realize the real importance about communion, and how it's not about getting a free snack. For my church the program starts in the 3rd grade.

I have seen children younger than 3rd grade come up to the communion table with their parents, and the Pastor blesses them instead. He places his hand on their head and marks the sign of the cross on their foreheads while saying "Jesus loves you. God Bless you." A very simple gesture but sometimes the kids are too fidgety for him to say anything longer. lol

I have also seen parents with younger kids break their bread into smaller pieces and let their kids have some while they stand up there. Personally I would not do that with my kids, if I had any, because these young kids don't really understand why they are getting the bread. They think "I'm hungry. ooo Bread! Mommy can I have some?" I'm sure maybe there are some younger kids that understand, but I would much rather have them wait until they know what is really is that they are getting.

And as far as the wine for the kids, they allow the teens in my church to receive it. Anyone younger however, probably not. It's a parental preference I believe but I've never seen a parent allow her nine-year-old to take the wine.

But there's an example of one church for you.

Sounds like the Pastor doesn't have much control of the situation if parents are breaking off pieces of the bread/body and giving it to their children. At the very least, there is something missing in his teaching. It sounds like some of the children are quite young to be receiving the Sacrament as well. Are the children of your church confirmed at age 9? This is not really "in the Lutheran tradition" as you put it.

Thanks for adding what your church does. It's good to know what's going on out there.

Confirmed? Noo. Confirmation isn't done until the kids are at least 15, 16 years old. Usually around the junior high years in my church. If that's what you meant? I was just using the age of 9 as a wild example. That's never happened. First communion at my church is done for 3rd graders, so I guess around the age of 9, but it's different than confirmation. We separate the programs.

As for the parents breaking the bread for their kids, you know I've honestly only seen that happen at Christmas Eve services, and many people attending come from outside traditions, or no church at all. They probably didn't know. In any case, I'm sure my Pastor might have friendly mentioned something to the parents after the service, but it's not something he would stress over too much. Regularly during the year, I don't see it happen.

The unchurched should not be partaking in communion and I'm worried about a 3rd grader really understanding communion (which is why typically first communion is after confirmation). You need to be baptized and believe in Real Presence..the way your church operates is worrysome (especially allowing unchurched or those who aren't in fellowship with communion partaking).

On a side note, while it is wonderful you found faith in Christ, this worries me from your profile:

It's a real long story.. The jist of it is that my friends are the ones that helped me accept Christ. Before they helped me, I was an atheist and did not want to have anything to do with God, but I changed the day I went to a church service for the first time since I was just three. After six months of learning, growing, and support from my friends, I accepted Christ as my Savior.

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We don't accept Christ. He accepts us. He draws us to himself through the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Friends don't help you. Friends are the working of the Holy Spirit. They are a channel.

3rd Article of Luther's Small Catechism

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

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PuppyforChrist said:

Confirmed? Noo. Confirmation isn't done until the kids are at least 15, 16 years old. Usually around the junior high years in my church. If that's what you meant? I was just using the age of 9 as a wild example. That's never happened. First communion at my church is done for 3rd graders, so I guess around the age of 9, but it's different than confirmation. We separate the programs.

As for the parents breaking the bread for their kids, you know I've honestly only seen that happen at Christmas Eve services, and many people attending come from outside traditions, or no church at all. They probably didn't know. In any case, I'm sure my Pastor might have friendly mentioned something to the parents after the service, but it's not something he would stress over too much. Regularly during the year, I don't see it happen.

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I've never heard of first communion at 3rd grade level at any Lutheran church. Breaking of bread for the kids? Are you Lutheran? As Aibrean mentioned there is no decision theology in the Lutheran church.

PuppyforChrist said:

As for the parents breaking the bread for their kids, you know I've honestly only seen that happen at Christmas Eve services, and many people attending come from outside traditions, or no church at all. They probably didn't know. In any case, I'm sure my Pastor might have friendly mentioned something to the parents after the service, but it's not something he would stress over too much. Regularly during the year, I don't see it happen.

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He should be stressing over it greatly. Those who partake of the Sacrament unworthily do so to their spiritual harm. They are sinning.
During such services where there may be attendees from outside our fellowship he needs to explain what the sacrament is and who may receive it.

Sorry you all feel that way but seeing as I'm feeling attacked here, as well as my own church, I'll take my thoughts somewhere else. Thanks. Just because someone does something differently doesn't make them wrong and certainly not a sinner. I would never flat out call anyone a sinner just because they do something differently. That is up for God to decide. Not us.

And Aib, I'm well aware of that. I wrote that years ago and the fact is that he is in my heart now, and I know that he loves me. That's the important thing and the way I came to Christ has nothing to do with this.

PuppyforChrist said:

Sorry you all feel that way but seeing as I'm feeling attacked here, as well as my own church, I'll take my thoughts somewhere else. Thanks. Just because someone does something differently doesn't make them wrong and certainly not a sinner. I would never flat out call anyone a sinner just because they do something differently. That is up for God to decide. Not us.

And Aib, I'm well aware of that. I wrote that years ago and the fact is that he is in my heart now, and I know that he loves me. That's the important thing and the way I came to Christ has nothing to do with this.

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Why are you feeling attacked? We are not attacking you - we are telling you what the bible says about Communion and why our churches do what they do. Did you want us to pretend that what your church is doing is right? It has nothing to do with your church doing things differently...but it has everything to do with how God wants things done.

We are all sinners, Puppy. This is about bringing down God's condemnation by not discerning the body and blood of Christ which we wouldn't want to have happen to anyone. That is why it is so serious. If you truly understood communion you would realize that. We aren't attacking you. We are saying that your church is doing something they absolutely, 100%, should not be doing because as DaRev said, those who partake unworthily are spiritually harming themselves. By allowing the unchurched and children who haven't had proper instruction to partake, it is enabling God's judgment upon them.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/admisup.pdf
I don't know what Synod you are a part of but that ^ is a good read to explain it all.