Who is the first Christian to deny the Primacy of Peter or his successors?

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chestertonrules

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(sic)

Huh? :doh:That makes no sense. By the way is English you first language?


It makes sense because there is only one word for rock in Aramaic, and it is Cephas.

Jesus said:

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Cephas, and on this Cephas I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.".
 
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Fireinfolding

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Many Jewish converts struggled with how to approach the law. It was Peter who was given the revelation from God that circumcision was no longer necessary and that gentiles could be equal sharers of the grace of Jesus.

I agree that the Holy Spirit may have worked through Paul to correct Peter's pride and doubt.

That doesn't change the fact that God chose Peter to reveal this truth to.

Nor does it change the fact that Jesus chose Peter to be the rock of his Church and gave him the keys to the Kingdom.

We differ on the rock ofcourse, but it goes to show you that we are not to let our faith rest in men because they can and do make mistakes as they are very much capable of that. And if our faith is in them (over our faith Jesus Christ) as Paul pointed out to Peter we can likewise be led astray in the same error, and even in the same manner as shown above.

God also revealed His Son in Paul whom he also revealed his truth to and is showing they are not above leading others astray when we put our faith in men and not in Christ who they are to preach. Even Paul said he kept his body under that after he preached to others he would not be a castaway, so being attentive to where our faith stands, to our life and to our doctrine is a good thing.
 
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chestertonrules

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We differ on the rock ofcourse, but it goes to show you that we are not to let our faith rest in men because they can and do make mistakes as they are very much capable of that.

Absolutely. Popes are sinners like everyone else.


You say we differ on the rock.

What is your personal interpretation of this:

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Note: In Aramaic, this would read, you are cephas, and on this cephas I will build my Church.
 
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Dorothea

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Dorothea

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He didn't change their names. They are not known as the sons of Thunder, they are known as James and John.

So you don't have an answer to the question. OK.
Actually there's some info on why Jesus changed the Apostles names. Levi to Matthew, John Mark to just Mark, Simon to Peter, and Saul to Paul. I'll see if I can dig up this monk's thoughts on it.... found it:


In the Orthodox Church a baptized convert is given a new name, a baptismal name, by his or her spiritual father. That is, just as a biological mother and father name their newborn infants, in the Church one's elder confers a new name.

Moreover, we see in the Bible that the Lord Jesus Christ engaged in the practice of renaming His spiritual sons:

"As He passed by He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax office. And he said to him, 'Follow Me.' So he arose and followed Him" (Mk. 2:14); we know that Jesus subsequently renamed Levi as Apostle Matthew (cf., Mt. 10:2-3).

"Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter" (Mk. 3:16)[/font]

"Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (Jn. 1:42).

Scripture reveals that the apostles also followed this practice: "And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles" (Acts 4:36). And finally, some Church Fathers also take the passage in Acts 13:9, "Then Saul, who is also called Paul," as an indication that Saul of Tarsus was renamed as Apostle Paul by Christ Jesus on the road to Damascus.


**"West of Jesus" by Monk Anthony
 
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Thekla

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Actually there's some info on why Jesus changed the Apostles names. Levi to Matthew, John Mark to just Mark, Simon to Peter, and Saul to Paul. I'll see if I can dig up this monk's thoughts on it....

Also James and John received the name "Sons of Thunder"; the name Peter was also a surname (note that John often refers to him as Simon Peter).
 
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chestertonrules

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Actually there's some info on why Jesus changed the Apostles names. Levi to Matthew, John Mark to just Mark, Simon to Peter, and Saul to Paul. I'll see if I can dig up this monk's thoughts on it....


OK.

However, Paul is just the gentile version of Saul. Jesus didn't have anything to do with the change.

Mark was not an apostle.
 
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chestertonrules

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The subject of the sentence can be read to be the confession of Peter (not Peter); of the perhaps (iirc) 80 times this passage is exegeted by the ECFs, only 17 times is the subject of the sentence identified as Peter. The remaining (and majority) mentions of this verse identify the confession as the rock.


Well then the Catholic Church gets 100% on this analysis because it teaches that Peter's faith is a rock as is Peter.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Absolutely. Popes are sinners like everyone else.


You say we differ on the rock.

What is your personal interpretation of this:

18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Note: In Aramaic, this would read, you are cephas, and on this cephas I will build my Church.

chestertonrules I did share earlier (posting scripture) in accord with how I regard it, did you miss it maybe?

I was looking at this too His name is Simon Peter right? Thats Peters first name and THEN Jesus calls him Cephas

BEFORE His name is changed

Peter = Petros means a rock or stone

Then Jesus says to Simon (Who is Peter)

John 1:42 Thou art Simon 4613 the son of Jona thou shalt be called
Cephas 2786, which is by interpretation 2059 ,A stone 4074.

So the interpretation is in the verse as well as in the strongs and the name Peter/Simon holds both rock and stone in the definition and Jesus calls him Cephas which by interpretation (in the verse means "a stone") niether are of the same word but nearly the same definition. Simon/ Peter is #4613 is not of the same as #2786 Cephas. And though Cephas by interpretation is A stone its number is #4074 Yet holds equal value to Peter (His name BEFORE Jesus changes it to Cephas) ever notice that?

A stone = Peter = "a rock or a stone"

His name is changed to

Cephas = "A stone" (yet A stone "here" used once Yet is shown connected to "Peter" (His name before Jesus changed it)

Peter 161, stone 1

Used 161 times as Peter (former name) and once as "A stone" in the context of Jesus calling Peter Cephas

Now here He simply calls Peter by His name Peter and not Cephas

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter 4074, and upon this rock 4073 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

petra #4073

1) a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
b) a rock, a large stone
c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul

Strongs is showing the same word petra #4073 here

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank 4095 of that spiritual Rock 4073 that followed them: and that Rock 4073 was Christ.
 
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chestertonrules

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chestertonrules I did share earlier (posting scripture) in accord with how I regard it, did you miss it maybe?

I was looking at this too His name is Simon Peter right? Thats Peters first name and THEN Jesus calls him Cephas

BEFORE His name is changed

Peter = Petros means a rock or stone

Then Jesus says to Simon (Who is Peter)

John 1:42 Thou art Simon 4613 the son of Jona thou shalt be called
Cephas 2786, which is by interpretation 2059 ,A stone 4074.

So the interpretation is in the verse as well as in the strongs and the name Peter/Simon holds both rock and stone in the definition and Jesus calls him Cephas which by interpretation (in the verse means "a stone") niether are of the same word but nearly the same definition. Simon/ Peter is #4613 is not of the same as #2786 Cephas. And though Cephas by interpretation is A stone its number is #4074 Yet holds equal value to Peter (His name BEFORE Jesus changes it to Cephas) ever notice that?

A stone = Peter = "a rock or a stone"

His name is changed to

Cephas = "A stone" (yet A stone "here" used once Yet is shown connected to "Peter" (His name before Jesus changed it)

Peter 161, stone 1

Used 161 times as Peter (former name) and once as "A stone" in the context of Jesus calling Peter Cephas

Now here He simply calls Peter by His name Peter and not Cephas

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter 4074, and upon this rock 4073 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

petra #4073

1) a rock, cliff or ledge
a) a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground
b) a rock, a large stone
c) metaph. a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul

Strongs is showing the same word petra #4073 here

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank 4095 of that spiritual Rock 4073 that followed them: and that Rock 4073 was Christ.


Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephas.

Peter is just an English name.

Jesus said "you are Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church."

Don't you think it is worth noting that the oldest and largest Christian Church follows the successor of Cephas?
 
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RND

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4074 - PetroV (Petros) - "A piece of a rock."
Strong's Greek Dictionary - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

What I find so interesting in this discussion is the insistence that Jesus spoke Aramaic. True. Yet the epistle was written in koine Greek. So obviously that is what we have to work with. No commentary by the author as in other scriptures where the writer felt a need to add anything about interpretation.
 
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katherine2001

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You've got a point, Tonks. It does rather remind you of James and John wanting to be first and Christ reminding them that to be first means to be the servant of all--in other words, to be first isn't a position of power, it is a position of being the servant of all. In other words, to be first in God's Kingdom is totally different than it is here on earth, where to be king is to have everyone serving you.
 
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Timothew

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Not a trick question, just curious. I don't know the answer.

I was going to answer Paul, due to Galations 2.

It was 14 years before Paul ever went to talk to Peter. He says in verse 6 that people who seem to be of high reputation make no difference to him, and those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Then it seems from verse 9 that there are two main apostles, Peter (for the Jews) and Paul (for the Gentiles).
But then Paul opposes Peter in verse 11. So again, I would answer Paul was the first to deny the primacy of Peter.

Then I realized that in Paul's time, the Primacy of Peter hadn't been invented.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephas.

Peter is just an English name.

Jesus said "you are Cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church."

Don't you think it is worth noting that the oldest and largest Christian Church follows the successor of Cephas?

They mean the same as Cephas means a stone as Peter means a rock or a stone

Things were written over him in letters of all three even as pointed out here

Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Though, even the stone "the builders rejected" is also another word altogether here

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone #3037 which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner

the stone (here)#3037 lithos
1) a stone
a) of small stones
b) of building stones
c) metaph. of Christ

Name in one tongue is shown and in another tonge as well here

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Abaddon = "destruction"

Apollyon = "Destroyer"

In regards to the rock, its consistent even in the OT that He indeed is the rock unto who we are to look, and Christ is the apostles confession and profession upon which the church is built (on the pluralty of that foundation)

Shows it even here

Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Our Rock...

Psalm 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Psalm 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Duet 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Psalm 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Duet 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Duet 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

1Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

2Sam 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Psalm 28:1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock

Duet 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Jerm 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Titus 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 
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chestertonrules

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I was going to answer Paul, due to Galations 2.

It was 14 years before Paul ever went to talk to Peter. He says in verse 6 that people who seem to be of high reputation make no difference to him, and those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.

Then it seems from verse 9 that there are two main apostles, Peter (for the Jews) and Paul (for the Gentiles).
But then Paul opposes Peter in verse 11. So again, I would answer Paul was the first to deny the primacy of Peter.

Then I realized that in Paul's time, the Primacy of Peter hadn't been invented.


Jesus gave Peter primacy and Paul never denied it. In fact, he spent 15 days with Peter learning about the faith.
 
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chestertonrules

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He may have spoke Aramaic but it was written in greek. This is why we see Petra and Petros. Different works and different meanings.


Not different meanings, different genders. A many would not be named Petra.

Jesus used the same word.
 
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