Did Jesus end something the Torah said to do,BEFORE the cross?

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

cyberlizard said:
for the OP though, any changes to a diatheke can only be implemented upon the death of the testator.

Steve

Did he did He not say,they cant do the previous?
As per our other conversation,he ended a law,pre-cross,just like he did the food laws.

Give me some rational,of how to interperate the recorded events?

The listeners were just told to not do something that was previously ok.No?

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

Lulav said:
What you have quoted you do not understand. The woman was guilty that is why he told her to 'go and sin no more'.

However if he had condemned her HE would have been sinning. Do you know why? This is why Christians need to stop believing that the Torah is not for them, nor for them to study. If you don't understand Torah and study it, you will never understand things Jesus said or did.

The law requires for those caught in adultery for both parties to be brought before the priests. BOTH, they only brought the woman. They did not have a case in today's legal terms. So if Jesus condemned her he would be doing so unrighteously. They were testing him to see how well he knew the law, they knew he did not study under any of the Rabbis of the time so they wanted to see what his understanding was.

Then why didn't Jesus just say..."where are your witnesses"?

Also,they asked what the law said,and Jesus did not validate it,did he?

Also,did he or did he not,say to not do something,that was from Moses..'eye for an eye"?

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

Lulav said:
Again, in case you forgot, they were being sent to Jews. They were told to stay in the one house chosen. This house would obviously be of observant Jews. They would be the ones more interested in hearing of the Messiah having come that they were waiting for. He told them to eat what was set before them because they were to take no food, G-d would provide for them, also no money, extra clothes. They would do the work of the L-RD and see that he provided for them. Simple to understand really. He was basically telling them that they didn't have to find other work to support them, that they were to accept their daily bread from the house chosen and G-d would bless that house for receiving them and taking care of them the time they were there.

Believe me if they were made to eat un kosher food, there would have been a recording of it. Precedence is set over a decade later when Peter told the L-RD he wouldn't eat anything unclean, and Hadn't his whole life. He was sent with them, surely he would have complained long before the time of Cornelius!

Why would the scriptures stress,that Jesus said to eat what was set before them,if it was not gentile food?

Sounds like the rest of inspired scripture,about unclean food.

1 Corinthians 10:27
If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

Lulav said:
do you have a Torah mitzvah number or a verse backing that up?

Remember he was 99% of the time dealing with the Pharisees, they had their own, Oral law they held in the same esteem as the Written Torah of G-d. That was what the whole handwashing thing was over, not that you didn't have to eat Kosher any longer, but that you had to wash your hands first (Pharisee law, not in Torah).

You can't prove it was not the torah

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

Aibrean said:
Still...he didn't say they should kill her.

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Judea wasn't the best place for a Jewish Christian in Christ to be walking around

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these in the Galilee, for not He willed in the Judea to be walking, that the Judeans sought Him to kill.

Matthew 4:15 Land of Zabulon and land of Nephthalim, way-of sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of-the Nations
[Isaiah 9:1]

true.

Frogster · Jun 10, 2010

Yab Yum said:
He also healed on the sabbath ...

Good point.If a guy was killed for gathering sticks,Numbers 15,then probably healings were also considered working on the sab.

Fireinfolding · Jun 10, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Judea wasn't the best place for a Jewish Christian in Christ to be walking around

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these in the Galilee, for not He willed in the Judea to be walking, that the Judeans sought Him to kill.

Matthew 4:15 Land of Zabulon and land of Nephthalim, way-of sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of-the Nations
[Isaiah 9:1]

The disciples were commanded not to enter

This is kool

Duet 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, andamong his own kin, and in his own house.

In John right after the same verse it says...

John 4:45 Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.

They said...

Mat 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

John 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. ^_^

Lulav · Jun 11, 2010

Aibrean said:
Still...he didn't say they should kill her.

That's because there was insufficient evidence. Both parties must be brought to trial. The 'he' was missing in this case.

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death .

Lulav · Jun 11, 2010

Yab Yum said:
He also healed on the sabbath ...

And Torah Observant Doctors do so today, where is it written you can't heal on the Sabbath? The definition of work was left to the Levites to interpret what constituted work. They choose the 39 things done to make the tabernacle. No healing was employed to make the tabernacle.

Now of course The Pharisees could have more added on rules and this is what he was contending with.

The priesthood worked on the Sabbath as well. Yeshua was both King and Priest, so once again he did not break nor annul Torah.

Lulav · Jun 11, 2010

Fireinfolding said:
True they were commanded not to go the way of the Gentiles yet

Mat 10:5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Its also shows they didnt understand the parable of what went into their mouth either because they were already eating with "unwashed hands" so he didnt really need to explain to them that they needed to wash them.

Mark 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The washing of hands was a law added by the Pharisees, it was not G-ds law, was not in his Torah, his instructions on how to live. As far as mark 7:18 notice he does not mention food. What the Pharisees taught was that you could get demons under your fingernails and needed to wash before eating. Now that is a pre-microscope age way of saying, germs! Yes, It is good to wash dirt and germs off your hands. But Jesus was not speaking of food, but the handwashing. And the verse that has added 'Thus declaring all foods clean' is adding to Jesus word and that in itself is a sin. And besides, any food they were eating, was food to a Jew, things G-d calls, clean. They certainly weren't eating non kosher things.

Now you can't put Paul side by side and say they are in agreement because they are not. Paul is boasting as he usually does, not everything is lawful for anyone. Was murder lawful for him? was inappropriate behavior with animals? homosexuality? what about loving your neighbor, was that not lawful for him to do? He certainly wasn't very loving towards Jesus chosen Apostles.

The Hebrews scripture is totally off this subject and talking about something else completely.

Lulav · Jun 11, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Judea wasn't the best place for a Jewish Christian in Christ to be walking around

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these in the Galilee, for not He willed in the Judea to be walking, that the Judeans sought Him to kill.

Matthew 4:15 Land of Zabulon and land of Nephthalim, way-of sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of-the Nations
[Isaiah 9:1]

Messiah Yeshua was never a Christian.

Lulav · Jun 12, 2010

Frogster said:
Why would the scriptures stress,that Jesus said to eat what was set before them,if it was not gentile food?

Sounds like the rest of inspired scripture,about unclean food.

1 Corinthians 10:27
If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.

Apparently you didn't read anything I wrote. Do you realize you are trying to make Jesus look like a sinner? He was the spotless lamb of G-d, if he were not you are dead in your sins.

Remember Jesus said:Whosoever therefore shall break one of these leastteach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven commandments, and shall : but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Are you saying he taught this and then would teach others to break any of the laws?

Emmy · Jun 12, 2010

Dear cyberlizard. Jesus also told His disciples, when they were picking corn to eat on a Sabbath, because they were hungry. Jesus told them that the " The Sabbath is made for men, not men for the Sabbath." I can`t see the difference in healing somethings, and not others on the Sabbath, cyberlizard. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Frogster · Jun 12, 2010

Lulav said:
The washing of hands was a law added by the Pharisees, it was not G-ds law, was not in his Torah, his instructions on how to live. As far as mark 7:18 notice he does not mention food. What the Pharisees taught was that you could get demons under your fingernails and needed to wash before eating. Now that is a pre-microscope age way of saying, germs! Yes, It is good to wash dirt and germs off your hands. But Jesus was not speaking of food, but the handwashing. And the verse that has added 'Thus declaring all foods clean' is adding to Jesus word and that in itself is a sin. And besides, any food they were eating, was food to a Jew, things G-d calls, clean. They certainly weren't eating non kosher things.

Now you can't put Paul side by side and say they are in agreement because they are not. Paul is boasting as he usually does, not everything is lawful for anyone. Was murder lawful for him? was inappropriate behavior with animals? homosexuality? what about loving your neighbor, was that not lawful for him to do? He certainly wasn't very loving towards Jesus chosen Apostles.

The Hebrews scripture is totally off this subject and talking about something else completely.

As far as your commentary on mark 7.Did you ever notice it talks about what passes through a man,then exits?

Ummmm,usually that would be food,

(context)

19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” [6] (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
That is what God's chosen instument,who had a greater ministry than moses also said,in the inspired text of romans 2 times.Clean!

Fireinfolding · Jun 12, 2010

Lulav said:
The washing of hands was a law added by the Pharisees, it was not G-ds law, was not in his Torah, his instructions on how to live. As far as mark 7:18 notice he does not mention food. What the Pharisees taught was that you could get demons under your fingernails and needed to wash before eating. Now that is a pre-microscope age way of saying, germs! Yes, It is good to wash dirt and germs off your hands. But Jesus was not speaking of food, but the handwashing. And the verse that has added 'Thus declaring all foods clean' is adding to Jesus word and that in itself is a sin. And besides, any food they were eating, was food to a Jew, things G-d calls, clean. They certainly weren't eating non kosher things.

Now you can't put Paul side by side and say they are in agreement because they are not. Paul is boasting as he usually does, not everything is lawful for anyone. Was murder lawful for him? was inappropriate behavior with animals? homosexuality? what about loving your neighbor, was that not lawful for him to do? He certainly wasn't very loving towards Jesus chosen Apostles.

The Hebrews scripture is totally off this subject and talking about something else completely.

I dont speak evil of Paul.

Having clean hands isnt spoke of, I know here it speaks of not eating of the holy things unless he washes his flesh.

Lev 22:6 The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

This being one of the ordinances is it not?

Then its said of Moses here...

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Which is found here right before the verse posted above

Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments:which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

But God says here...

Ezek 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Why do you think he gave them something not good and whereby they should not live even as Moses said the man who does these things will live by them (which is not good) that God gave?

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Of "men" or either "carnal ordinances" (imposed) were inclusive of both meats and drinks and washings it says...

Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:1 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (again said in Leviticus 18:4)

What Christ did

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The whole "Im of Moses" verses I'm of Christ contention...

John 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

Also inclusive of the circumcision after the manner of Moses

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Ephes 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

I understand there is a talmud also considered the traditions of men but also ordinances written (given them that were not good and by which God said they should not live) which are done away in Christ. It speaks also of fables as well.

2Titus 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Which was spoken of in the first letter

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Fireinfolding · Jun 12, 2010

Lulav said:
The washing of hands was a law added by the Pharisees, it was not G-ds law, was not in his Torah, his instructions on how to live. As far as mark 7:18 notice he does not mention food.

Mark 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him

1Cr 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

The law is not of faith (that which stands in meats and drinks)

Romans 4:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

And Mark 7:18 might not mention meats (specifically so) but "whatsoever thing" yet in Mark 7:19 (the very next verse) it specifically does

Again...

Mark 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

1Cr 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them.

Paul speaking in the same accord

Lulav said:
What the Pharisees taught was that you could get demons under your fingernails and needed to wash before eating. Now that is a pre-microscope age way of saying, germs! Yes, It is good to wash dirt and germs off your hands. But Jesus was not speaking of food, but the handwashing. And the verse that has added 'Thus declaring all foods clean' is adding to Jesus word and that in itself is a sin. And besides, any food they were eating, was food to a Jew, things G-d calls, clean. They certainly weren't eating non kosher things.

I dont know about the demons under the fingernails deal but in regards to "declaring all foods clean"

Is this the verse?

Luke 11:31 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

Are you talking about that verse, or another?

Clean meaning pure (in the above) as elsewhere it says...

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Romans 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Now you can't put Paul side by side and say they are in agreement because they are not. Paul is boasting as he usually does, not everything is lawful for anyone. Was murder lawful for him? was inappropriate behavior with animals? homosexuality? what about loving your neighbor, was that not lawful for him to do? He certainly wasn't very loving towards Jesus chosen Apostles.

The Hebrews scripture is totally off this subject and talking about something else completely.

Hebrews is speaking of meats and drinks and washings, how is that off topic?

So you feel carnal ordinances are equal to the commandments of God and believe God in Christ made it clean to murder when they plainly say he that hateth his brother (lifting the standard of the commandment) is a murderer?

Where on earth do you get that idea?

Pythons · Jun 12, 2010

In Judaism the Oral Torah was as much Torah as the Written....
...The Sadducees of course rejected this but we all know what Jesus had to say about them.

When Jews around Jesus used a lessor Mitzvot to avoid a greater Mitzvot that is where the problem was.

nephilimiyr · Jun 12, 2010

Yes, of course He did.

Hebrews 8:13, By calling this covenant new he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disapear.

Jesus' sacrificial death and subsequently rising back to life put an end to all of the divine ordinance's. The temple in Jerusalem was no longer needed as the bodies of the believers in Christ became temples themselves.
Hebrews 10:8-10, First he said, sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them, although the law required them to be made. Then he said, here I am, I have come to do your will. He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

It goes on to show that the job of the priest performing the divine ordinance's is over.
Hebrews 10:11-12, Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

Frogster · Jun 12, 2010

Lulav said:
And Torah Observant Doctors do so today, where is it written you can't heal on the Sabbath? The definition of work was left to the Levites to interpret what constituted work. They choose the 39 things done to make the tabernacle. No healing was employed to make the tabernacle.

Now of course The Pharisees could have more added on rules and this is what he was contending with.

The priesthood worked on the Sabbath as well. Yeshua was both King and Priest, so once again he did not break nor annul Torah.

Here is an interesting verse about the torah,and it being annuled.

Ephesians2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law (3551 nomos) of commandments (1785 entole,a commandment of God) contained in ordinances (1378 dogma), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Did Jesus end something the Torah said to do,BEFORE the cross?

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