Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.

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Frogster

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Of course I am a gentile. I have never claimed to be Jewish.

If you can answer my question, I'll answer yours.


Steve

Ok,just clarifying.You can undertsand that one could presume you to be Jewish,by your posts,and love of Rabbinical things.:)

Curious here now..

If lets say you were not cut as a baby.And then got saved as an udult,would you then circumcise,and try to follow all the laws that the Jews do?And consider it sin,to not follow all the ones that would pertain to you?And consider it sin,if you don't?

Thanks,frogster.
 
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cyberlizard

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the new testament writings specifically inform me that I should remain in the state I am when I came to faith...

The Torah itself specifies that some rules apply to native Israelites, some to gentiles and some to both groups.

the problem is that some people misunderstand that fact and think it either only applies to Jews or that if the Torah does apply to both Jew and non-Jew, they are both bound to observe the same instructions, but they aren't.

What did Paul teach his non-Jewish disiples, "live your life like me, as I live me life like Messiah"... what did Messiah teach, "Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven".

The commandments are not burdensome. They are not designed to grind you into the floor, they are meant to be the mirror that shines on your life so that you can see how you really look and see the areas in which you both succeed and fail. Not so you can pat yourself on the back or beat yourself up, but to lead us to Messiah who is the goal of the Torah for all who are faithful.

As to whether it is a sin or not, I am sure you will agree with me that you sin every day and the Torah makes that plain for you. But remember the Torah states that it is not to difficult for you to be obedient, you just need to circumcise your heart and not be an ignorant, prideful, stubborn, stiff necked person. Submit to God and the commandments become a source of blessing. Resist and they will be a weight that crush you.




Steve
 
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Frogster

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the new testament writings specifically inform me that I should remain in the state I am when I came to faith...

The Torah itself specifies that some rules apply to native Israelites, some to gentiles and some to both groups.

the problem is that some people misunderstand that fact and think it either only applies to Jews or that if the Torah does apply to both Jew and non-Jew, they are both bound to observe the same instructions, but they aren't.

What did Paul teach his non-Jewish disiples, "live your life like me, as I live me life like Messiah"... what did Messiah teach, "Anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven".

The commandments are not burdensome. They are not designed to grind you into the floor, they are meant to be the mirror that shines on your life so that you can see how you really look and see the areas in which you both succeed and fail. Not so you can pat yourself on the back or beat yourself up, but to lead us to Messiah who is the goal of the Torah for all who are faithful.

As to whether it is a sin or not, I am sure you will agree with me that you sin every day and the Torah makes that plain for you. But remember the Torah states that it is not to difficult for you to be obedient, you just need to circumcise your heart and not be an ignorant, prideful, stubborn, stiff necked person. Submit to God and the commandments become a source of blessing. Resist and they will be a weight that crush you.




Steve

Steve..I was trying to be objective reading this.Trying to respect your subjective experience.:)

But sorry...that last part blew my mind!

You just put me back under the mosaic curse,when you said resist and crush.

You just got done saying we sin according to the Torah every day..

So that means we are crushed evert day ? Living under condemantion every day?

uh uh..sorry,that is an old era of death,and judgement, that is over.

Dont you see that if Christ took the curse,that abrogated the law?

Salavation history can not be denied.
 
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cyberlizard

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if the heart is there to keep the commandments, regardless of if you fail in the process, God is pleased with your faithfulness. Take David for example, he failed miserably in many areas, but he did love God and God said he was a man after his own heart.

The Torah is not there to be a pass/fail examination. It is there to be a mirror for your life.

If you dislike the Torah so much, why not simply rip it from your bible as some early church members did.


'Talui'


Steve
 
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Frogster

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if the heart is there to keep the commandments, regardless of if you fail in the process, God is pleased with your faithfulness. Take David for example, he failed miserably in many areas, but he did love God and God said he was a man after his own heart.

The Torah is not there to be a pass/fail examination. It is there to be a mirror for your life.

If you dislike the Torah so much, why not simply rip it from your bible as some early church members did.


'Talui'


Steve
you need to stop your tactic of me "disliking the Torah".Actually I could say you dislike the Part about Abraham,since you only seem to like the law.:DIs he not in the Torah?

You previous post says you prefer this..

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”

And ignore the "but"..and don't want this.


22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly [1] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Just like Galatians 4.The Jerusalem from above is better.:clap:
 
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tall73

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This

that is the truth of the matter. The Torah is not mandatory for gentiles.

is not matching up with this


Submit to God and the commandments become a source of blessing. Resist and they will be a weight that crush you.


Is the crushing referenced temporal? Or are you getting at something else?
 
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Der Alte

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[ . . . ]The commandments are not burdensome. They are not designed to grind you into the floor, they are meant to be the mirror that shines on your life so that you can see how you really look and see the areas in which you both succeed and fail. Not so you can pat yourself on the back or beat yourself up, but to lead us to Messiah who is the goal of the Torah for all who are faithful.

As to whether it is a sin or not, I am sure you will agree with me that you sin every day and the Torah makes that plain for you. But remember the Torah states that it is not to difficult for you to be obedient, you just need to circumcise your heart and not be an ignorant, prideful, stubborn, stiff necked person. Submit to God and the commandments become a source of blessing. Resist and they will be a weight that crush you
.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[ . . . ]
Act 15:5-11
(5)
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
(7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You would fit real well in both groups the Juedeans and the Pharisees. I will simply repeat Peter's words, and addresse them specifically to you. Cyberlizard, why do you tempt God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither the fathers nor Peter and the other apostles were able to bear?"
 
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Duckybill

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Sure you can eat all the things God said not to eat and still go to Heaven...but you're most likely going to go much sooner than you otherwise would have which is damaging to the Body of Christ as a whole when God's people die young.

What all the religious minded folks don't know is that God was giving mankind instructions on what not to eat because it is bad for the human body, which medical science is finding to be true in modern times.

God was trying to help mankind out...but the majority of mankind is too stupid to accept instructions from God in every area of their life...and so they demand pork roast, lobster, etc, etc

If you're gonna eat like that, then don't go crying to God when you get sick!
1 Timothy 4:4-5 (NKJV)
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
 
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Frogster

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Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[ . . . ]
Act 15:5-11
(5)
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
(7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

You would fit real well in both groups the Juedeans and the Pharisees. I will simply repeat Peter's words, and addresse them specifically to you. Cyberlizard, why do you tempt God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither the fathers nor Peter and the other apostles were able to bear?"

True,then even James,in the letter said he did not want to "burden" the gentiles with the law.
 
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bugkiller

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Sure you can eat all the things God said not to eat and still go to Heaven...but you're most likely going to go much sooner than you otherwise would have which is damaging to the Body of Christ as a whole when God's people die young.

What all the religious minded folks don't know is that God was giving mankind instructions on what not to eat because it is bad for the human body, which medical science is finding to be true in modern times.

God was trying to help mankind out...but the majority of mankind is too stupid to accept instructions from God in every area of their life...and so they demand pork roast, lobster, etc, etc

If you're gonna eat like that, then don't go crying to God when you get sick!
There are way to many elderly people still eating all those things you listed to give your point of view any validity.

Hey one of my uncles still smokes a cigar every day and is over 70 and works 80 hours a week.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
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Frogster

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There are way to many elderly people still eating all those things you listed to give your point of view any validity.

Hey one of my uncles still smokes a cigar every day and is over 70 and works 80 hours a week.

bugkiller
927154.gif

That is true,there are alot of healthnuts,that die young.
 
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Laloni

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There are way to many elderly people still eating all those things you listed to give your point of view any validity.

Hey one of my uncles still smokes a cigar every day and is over 70 and works 80 hours a week.

bugkiller
927154.gif
He must not have gotten the memo...smoking kills
 
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bugkiller

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He must not have gotten the memo...smoking kills
That is no doubt true. My grandpa who smoked out lived dad who never smoked by more than twenty years. My uncle who is 72 smokes and has for he 40 years I have known him. I would say smoking is very expensive for some. It burns down houses, forests and holes in bikinis.

No I do not smoke or consume alcohol.

bugkiller
927154.gif
 
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Der Alte

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I think this is Joel Osteen's opinion backed by the Bible.

Guess Osteen never read these verses.
Mar 7:15-20
(15)
there is nothing from without the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.
(16) If any man hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(17) And when he was entered into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked of him the parable.
(18) And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, it cannot defile him;
(19) because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.
(20) And he said, That which proceedeth out of the man, that defileth the man.

Act 10:10-16
(10)
And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
(11) And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
(12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
(13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
(14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
(15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
(16) This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Act 11:3-9
(3)
Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
(4) But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
(5) I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
(6) Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
(7) And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
(8) But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
(9) But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
(10) And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Rom 14:14-17
(14)
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
(15) But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
(16) Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
(17) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1Co 10:23-28
(23)
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
(24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
(25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
(26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
(27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
(28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

1Co 8:7-13
(7)
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
(8) But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
(9) But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
(10) For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
(11) And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
(12) But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
(13) Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.​
 
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Frogster

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I had a nightmare last night. It was end times & the antichrist had devasted civilization & the only thing we had to eat was... Joel Osteen.

He is in the flesh,,his book is all about having it all now!
 
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Duckybill

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Guess Osteen never read these verses.
Mar 7:15-20
(15)
there is nothing from without the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.
(16) If any man hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(17) And when he was entered into the house from the multitude, his disciples asked of him the parable.
(18) And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, it cannot defile him;
(19) because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.
(20) And he said, That which proceedeth out of the man, that defileth the man.

Act 10:10-16
(10)
And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
(11) And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
(12) Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
(13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
(14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
(15) And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
(16) This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Act 11:3-9
(3)
Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
(4) But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,
(5) I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
(6) Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
(7) And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
(8) But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
(9) But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
(10) And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Rom 14:14-17
(14)
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
(15) But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
(16) Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
(17) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1Co 10:23-28
(23)
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
(24) Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
(25) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
(26) For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
(27) If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
(28) But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

1Co 8:7-13
(7)
Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
(8) But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
(9) But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
(10) For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
(11) And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
(12) But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
(13) Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.​
Amen to that, and I'll add that I Tim 4 calls dietary restrictions "doctrines of demons".

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
 
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