Things that make you want to go hmm...

Monica child of God 1 · May 22, 2010

I think it makes sense for Harriet Tubman to be at the top. she was one of the first freedom fighters for enslaved Blacks. she is sort of a prototype for the rest.

I'm not saying that if I were a member of a Black church I would support installing such a window, but I do "get" it. The Black church was the center of the struggle for Blacks from the time of slavery to the modern civil rights movement of the 1960's. Religious meetings and churches were the only places where my ancestors could meet and speak with any freedom. While most slaves and poor free Blacks were kept illiterate by their "owners" or society, the pastors in our community were often able to read the scriptures and receive some rudimentary education. They were naturally the leaders of the community. For many modern Black Americans, their faith and the ongoing struggle of our people are forever joined. Hence, a civil rights window in a Methodist (probably A.M.E., African Methodist Episcopal) church.

M.

E.C. · May 23, 2010

Bessie said:
There is plenty of evil perpetrated by republicans as well as democrats. The President of the United States is in a very difficult position, as is the leader of evyrt country. Rather than demonize him and call him evil, maybe we should pray for him. And ourselves.

No matter which side of the political spectrum you are on, people are going to die. Politics is what is evil.

QFT.

One would think that we have that one line in the Litanies about "our president and all other civil authorities, let us pray to the Lord" for a reason.
I mean really, I don't agree with Obama politics, the Democrats, the Republicans or even that Tea Party Movement people because we have that line in the Litanies for a reason: its a tough job. Pray it enough and maybe even some so-called "evil" person will see the light.

But that would be the sensible thing to do... :yawn:

[/rant]

Khaleas · May 23, 2010

Monica said:
I think it makes sense for Harriet Tubman to be at the top. she was one of the first freedom fighters for enslaved Blacks. she is sort of a prototype for the rest.

I'm not saying that if I were a member of a Black church I would support installing such a window, but I do "get" it. The Black church was the center of the struggle for Blacks from the time of slavery to the modern civil rights movement of the 1960's. Religious meetings and churches were the only places where my ancestors could meet and speak with any freedom. While most slaves and poor free Blacks were kept illiterate by their "owners" or society, the pastors in our community were often able to read the scriptures and receive some rudimentary education. They were naturally the leaders of the community. For many modern Black Americans, their faith and the ongoing struggle of our people are forever joined. Hence, a civil rights window in a Methodist (probably A.M.E., African Methodist Episcopal) church.

M.

Pretty much all of my black friends find the window quite racist. I've got several Orthodox friends who have gotten spit at by other black people because they go to a 'white church'. Their general opinion is we need to start getting over this and move on. It was a terrible thing and we all realize it but it's been quite a while and people are told to get over things pretty equally horrible much sooner.
It's not the same generation of whites anymore, just like it's not the same generation of Soviets/Russians anymore. The folks that go to your church didn't slaughter thousands of people. People have had to move on because they realize it's not the same, Russians and Soviets is not the same. Growing up in a country that was invaded & occupied by the Soviet Union (my grandfather was a POW to the Soviets but managed to escape) the older generation had a hard time understanding that the current Russians weren't the ones who killed your dad or boyfriends. Already my mom's and my generation have gotten over the issues and are able to separate.
The double standard drives me nuts (especially as a not native born). You can't call a black person (lack of 'better' word), black, African American, or the n*word. At the same time they all use those words for themselves but then it's 'ok'. We talk about how the Orthodox church is ethnic, now look at the 'black churches'. I just find that a lot of the talk of 'segregation' still existing is self segregation (obviously there is still things happening in some areas but overall). I looked at some of the guys hubby worked with, they claimed that they had a hard childhood because their daddy left. At that point the guy had two kids with two different women, neither who he lived with. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it!
It's 'ok' for a black church to put up a window like this but the outcry would be deafening if a white church did something similar (or is it just expected that a white church would be 'smarter' than that).

Maybe this sounds racist, then I'm sorry, but I guess then my black friends are racist too... Basically what I'm trying to say is that there should be equality but it should be the same for both sides. Blacks 'becoming' equal should not mean that they now should be able to do all the things whites were for all times while the whites can't. That's not equality, that's revenge. Unfortunately there's more and more of that attitude.

PS: It's a United Methodist Church in a city not far from you Monica.

Maximus · May 23, 2010

Bessie said:
There is plenty of evil perpetrated by republicans as well as democrats. The President of the United States is in a very difficult position, as is the leader of evyrt country. Rather than demonize him and call him evil, maybe we should pray for him. And ourselves.

No matter which side of the political spectrum you are on, people are going to die. Politics is what is evil.

I think you are wrong. Obama is evil, his views are evil, his policies are evil.

We pray for him, but I think in his case we are praying that he repents and turns to the Lord.

I am sure the early Christians prayed for the Roman Emperor, but I seriously doubt they had any illusions about the likes of Nero or would have spoken of "supporting" him.

Evil should be identified for what it is.

Maximus · May 23, 2010

E.C. said:
QFT.

One would think that we have that one line in the Litanies about "our president and all other civil authorities, let us pray to the Lord" for a reason.
I mean really, I don't agree with Obama politics, the Democrats, the Republicans or even that Tea Party Movement people because we have that line in the Litanies for a reason: its a tough job. Pray it enough and maybe even some so-called "evil" person will see the light.

But that would be the sensible thing to do...

[/rant]

"So-called" evil?

Wise up. Obama is evil.

It is right to pray for Obama, just as it is right to pray for Osama bin Laden.

But that doesn't mean we have to support the rotten policies or views of either man or that our praying for them means that somehow they must be good.

Sphinx777 · May 23, 2010

E.C. said:
the Democrats, the Republicans

Unfortunately no political party has a platform completely in line with Orthodox social teaching.

The Orthodox Church is pro-life in the widest possible sense.

This pro-life stance stresses the highest regard for the dignity of human life, including that of:

All people in objecting to unjust war and nuclear arms (closer to Democratic platform)

The unborn in objecting to abortion, in vitro fertilization, frozen embryos, embryonic stem cell research, and cloning (closer to Republican platform)

The elderly, sick and dying in objecting to assisted suicide and euthanasia (closer to Republican platform)

Prisoners in objecting to the death penalty (closer to Democratic platform)

The poor and minorities in supporting social justice issues (closer to Democratic platform)

Some Orthodox are enthusiastically anti-abortion and align themselves with the Republican party.

Some Orthodox align themselves with the Democratic party which supports the "Orthodox" issues that effect the most people.

Neither party follows all Orthodox teachings.

With love in Christ.

:angel:

Monica child of God 1 · May 23, 2010

Khaleas said:
Pretty much all of my black friends find the window quite racist. I've got several Orthodox friends who have gotten spit at by other black people because they go to a 'white church'. Their general opinion is we need to start getting over this and move on. It was a terrible thing and we all realize it but it's been quite a while and people are told to get over things pretty equally horrible much sooner.
It's not the same generation of whites anymore, just like it's not the same generation of Soviets/Russians anymore. The folks that go to your church didn't slaughter thousands of people. People have had to move on because they realize it's not the same, Russians and Soviets is not the same. Growing up in a country that was invaded & occupied by the Soviet Union (my grandfather was a POW to the Soviets but managed to escape) the older generation had a hard time understanding that the current Russians weren't the ones who killed your dad or boyfriends. Already my mom's and my generation have gotten over the issues and are able to separate.
The double standard drives me nuts (especially as a not native born). You can't call a black person (lack of 'better' word), black, African American, or the n*word. At the same time they all use those words for themselves but then it's 'ok'. We talk about how the Orthodox church is ethnic, now look at the 'black churches'. I just find that a lot of the talk of 'segregation' still existing is self segregation (obviously there is still things happening in some areas but overall). I looked at some of the guys hubby worked with, they claimed that they had a hard childhood because their daddy left. At that point the guy had two kids with two different women, neither who he lived with. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it!
It's 'ok' for a black church to put up a window like this but the outcry would be deafening if a white church did something similar (or is it just expected that a white church would be 'smarter' than that).

Maybe this sounds racist, then I'm sorry, but I guess then my black friends are racist too... Basically what I'm trying to say is that there should be equality but it should be the same for both sides. Blacks 'becoming' equal should not mean that they now should be able to do all the things whites were for all times while the whites can't. That's not equality, that's revenge. Unfortunately there's more and more of that attitude.

PS: It's a United Methodist Church in a city not far from you Monica.

Wow. I don't know how to respond to all of this. I think this is beyond the scope of a thread about a window. I didn't take a stance on whether the window was racist or not, acceptable or not. I just said I understand it. I don't think we can judge what was in the hearts of the people that installed it. I don't know what the other windows depict in the church. Abe Lincoln? I really don't know. I wouldn't have a problem with a memorial window with white heroes for equality and justice, just maybe not in a church. That wouldn't be racist.

I am sorry this upsets you Khaleas, but this is way too complex a topic for a discussion board. Personally, I don't think anyone should tell others to "get over" racism. You won't ever know what it is like to be Black. I am 34 years old and my grandfather was lynched by whites in the South. That was in 1975. The modern era, not ancient history. There are many stories I could tell. Do I hate whites? Of course not! Do I blame all whites for what happened to my family? No, not in any way. I work for the betterment of Black people and to increase understanding between the races. Many people in my family are white or bi-racial, in fact. But I certainly don't want to be told to get over racism.

M.

Bessie · May 23, 2010

Maximus said:
I think you are wrong. Obama is evil, his views are evil, his policies are evil.

We pray for him, but I think in his case we are praying that he repents and turns to the Lord.

I am sure the early Christians prayed for the Roman Emperor, but I seriously doubt they had any illusions about the likes of Nero or would have spoken of "supporting" him.

Evil should be identified for what it is.

And what of the evil in the republican party? Politics are evil. Obama isn't perfect, but neither was Bush. By a long shot. People died under Bush and people are dying under Obama. Death and killing is part of the price you pay for power. Generally speaking anyone who wants that role probably shouldn't have it.

Khaleas · May 23, 2010

Monica said:
Wow. I don't know how to respond to all of this. I think this is beyond the scope of a thread about a window. I didn't take a stance on whether the window was racist or not, acceptable or not. I just said I understand it. I don't think we can judge what was in the hearts of the people that installed it. I don't know what the other windows depict in the church. Abe Lincoln? I really don't know. I wouldn't have a problem with a memorial window with white heroes for equality and justice, just maybe not in a church. That wouldn't be racist.

I am sorry this upsets you Khaleas, but this is way too complex a topic for a discussion board. Personally, I don't think anyone should tell others to "get over" racism. You won't ever know what it is like to be Black. I am 34 years old and my grandfather was lynched by whites in the South. That was in 1975. The modern era, not ancient history. There are many stories I could tell. Do I hate whites? Of course not! Do I blame all whites for what happened to my family? No, not in any way. I work for the betterment of Black people and to increase understanding between the races. Many people in my family are white or bi-racial, in fact. But I certainly don't want to be told to get over racism.

M.

I'm not saying to get over racism, it still happens, however, now it happens both ways. There's even black to black racism. It just amazes me how so many people blame all that goes wrong in their life on racism and not reconize that they might be the factor (goes for both black and white). There were horrible things that happened, some still do. But there are other horrible things that have happened and things move forward. The communists killed hundreds of thousands, the Nazis killed hundreds of thousands but in both instances it seems like things have moved on alot more than it has in the situation here in the US. I don't think a window like that advances equality and being all the same. That is still what the black community wants. Equality. There is two Methodist churches down the street from us, right next to eachother. One black, one white. I'd think they'd preach the same thing... still they don't mix. Why? Why does a black person spit at another black person because they don't fit the 'mold' that is apparently set for blacks.
As an exchange I wondered a lot about the idea that we are so different. I was in a school that was about 40% white, 30% Asian, 30% black. Kid who sat behind me was black (as was about half the class in this particular class) and seemed perfectly smart. When midterm grades came out he complained that he hadn't had the same opportunity as the rest of the kids in the class. He had the same book, same class time, same test, same teacher, same access to the teacher. He just skipped about 1/3 of the classes. In what way did he not have the same opportunity? There was plenty of very successful black kids in that class, but why claim that? I'm sure there are many white kids who claim similar things I just didn't run into them.

I'm guessing that people who did grow up here has a better understanding for this. I guess I just don't understand why demand that blacks have that all should be equal but there just doesn't seem to be a desire to have it go both ways. Is it suddenly ok for blacks to be racist toward whites, but not for white to be racist toward blacks?

Greg the byzantine · May 23, 2010

Perfect_Love said:
Did you guys know that the world trade centers were blown up by a controlled demolition?

I've deleted the rest of the quote because it's utter garbage

OK now you've really overstepped your bounds. This last post is spewing utter garbage. As an Orthodox Christian, a New Yorker, a friend to many a jew, and a human being I am appalled.

Apparently you don't know how to take a hint, Buzz off, Vamoose, Take a Hike, don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out. We're not buying what your selling. And these are the nice, ways I can think of saying what's on my mind.

Khaleas · May 23, 2010

Greg the byzantine said:
OK now you've really overstepped your bounds. This last post is spewing utter garbage. As an Orthodox Christian, a New Yorker, a friend to many a jew, and a human being I am appalled.

Apparently you don't know how to take a hint, Buzz off, Vamoose, Take a Hike, don't let the virtual door hit you on the way out. We're not buying what your selling. And these are the nice, ways I can think of saying what's on my mind.

I've started using the red button... I've had it! We're a welcoming bunch but we're not afraid to shake the trolls. Obviously there is a certain density that doesn't take a hint, initially gentle, then very direct.

Photini · May 24, 2010

Monica said:
Wow. I don't know how to respond to all of this. I think this is beyond the scope of a thread about a window. I didn't take a stance on whether the window was racist or not, acceptable or not. I just said I understand it. I don't think we can judge what was in the hearts of the people that installed it. I don't know what the other windows depict in the church. Abe Lincoln? I really don't know. I wouldn't have a problem with a memorial window with white heroes for equality and justice, just maybe not in a church. That wouldn't be racist.

I am sorry this upsets you Khaleas, but this is way too complex a topic for a discussion board. Personally, I don't think anyone should tell others to "get over" racism. You won't ever know what it is like to be Black. I am 34 years old and my grandfather was lynched by whites in the South. That was in 1975. The modern era, not ancient history. There are many stories I could tell. Do I hate whites? Of course not! Do I blame all whites for what happened to my family? No, not in any way. I work for the betterment of Black people and to increase understanding between the races. Many people in my family are white or bi-racial, in fact. But I certainly don't want to be told to get over racism.

M.

You know, I got to thinking about that window some more. The only reason I honestly find it strange is if the church in question is iconoclastic. It would seem like a double standard to say on the one hand that it is wrong to have Icons, and then turn around and put a huge window up that is obviously honoring specific people.

I also got to thinking about St Mary of Egypt Orthodox church in KC, where I attend from time to time when I am over there. You will find in the room where people gather to fellowship, pictures hanging all over the walls of the many outstanding African-Americans who have fought for civil rights. It has never struck me as odd, given the location of the church (inner city) and their involvement with that community. In a time when many blacks talk about returning to their "roots" and perceiving those roots to be Muslim, it is important to speak out about the fact that Christianity was in Africa well before Islam. Their ministry makes sense to me, and I think it's great that they minister to a certain group of people. All are welcome there, of course, and it feels very welcoming. It's just their specific aim, given the community where they are located.

Fr Paisius has earned the nickname, Fr. Troost (the name of the street where the church is located). =)

I guess my point is, that I don't have a problem with a church being geared toward ministering toward a certain group of people. I don't think it's racist at all.

Photini · May 24, 2010

Here's Fr Paisius on the news. =)

Linky loo

Macarius · May 24, 2010

Maximus said:
Oh, Photini! Say it ain't so!

That man is evil and probably the worst thing to happen to this country since Ted Kennedy was born under a bad sign.

I know those comments will probably draw a deletion and a warning from the CF mods, but so be it.

Obama is the worst president ever, and I know because I lived through Jimmah Carter.

I don't think he is the Antichrist, but he is an antichrist.

We are all antichrist. Watch out for that plank in your eye.

Julina · May 25, 2010

my initial reaction when i saw the window in the op was that i really hope that is not in an Orthodox church. If it was then i would have lost all faith in humanity.

Julina · May 25, 2010

also,

Sphinx777 · May 25, 2010

Julina said:
also,

.

Maximus · May 27, 2010

Sphinx777 said:
Unfortunately no political party has a platform completely in line with Orthodox social teaching.

The Orthodox Church is pro-life in the widest possible sense.

This pro-life stance stresses the highest regard for the dignity of human life, including that of:

• All people in objecting to unjust war and nuclear arms (closer to Democratic platform)

Note to you: The War Powers Act prohibits an American president from committing troops to any conflict for more than 60 days without the express authorization of Congress. By far and away, most of the Democrats in Congress at the time voted to authorize both the war in Afghanistan and the war in Iraq. That includes John Kerry and Hillary Clinton.

During the Clinton Administration, the Dems were all about bombing the Orthodox Christian Serbs in support of Bosnian Muslims.

They are the "peace" party only when it suits their political aims.

The U.S. first acquired (and used!) nuclear weapons under a Democratic president, Harry Truman.

It would be the ultimate in foolhardiness to divest ourselves of nuclear weapons when so many of our enemies have them.

By the way, and I think this point really needs to be emphasized for some young converts to Orthodoxy, we are Orthodox, not Quakers.

Sphinx777 said:
• The unborn in objecting to abortion, in vitro fertilization, frozen embryos, embryonic stem cell research, and cloning (closer to Republican platform)

• The elderly, sick and dying in objecting to assisted suicide and euthanasia (closer to Republican platform)

It seems to me those are deal breakers right there. The Democrats, and especially their fearless leader, Obama, are strongly pro-abortion, pro-embryonic stem cell research, pro-euthanasia.

How is ignoring all that and supporting its proponents an option for any kind of Christian?

It strikes me as similar to ignoring Nazi genocide because the Nazis were doing such a bang-up job with the German economy.

Sphinx777 said:
• Prisoners in objecting to the death penalty (closer to Democratic platform)

The death penalty is a matter of controversy. Its proponents are not clearly on the wrong side the way the proponents of abortion (like Obama) are.

The Bible authorizes the state to use the death penalty in certain cases. It never authorizes abortion, euthanasia or assisted suicide.

Sphinx777 said:
• The poor and minorities in supporting social justice issues (closer to Democratic platform)

"Social justice" is a left wing euphemism for the socialistic redistribution of wealth and a severely progressive tax code, both of which are key elements of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

Stealing from people to distribute the booty among one's political clients in order to buy their votes and maintain power is not "social justice".

It's thievery.

"Affirmative Action", the use of race-based quotas in hiring and in college admissions, is simply injustice.

Ever been denied a job simply because you are white? I have.

The Democratic Party regularly uses the "race card" and identity politics to divide and conquer.

Sphinx777 said:
Some Orthodox are enthusiastically anti-abortion and align themselves with the Republican party.

They are right to do so, although the Republican Party is certainly far from perfect.

But there are many many other reasons for all persons with good sense to avoid the Democrats like the plague.

Sphinx777 said:
Some Orthodox align themselves with the Democratic party which supports the "Orthodox" issues that effect the most people.

There is absolutely nothing Orthodox about Obama and the Democrats.

The Democratic Party is pro-abortion, pro-embryonic stem cell research and tends to be pro-euthanasia and assisted suicide. It is supported by NARAL and other pro-abortion groups.

The Democratic Party is pro-homosexual and backs the gay agenda and same-sex marriage. It is currently trying to repeal "Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell" to allow actively practicing homosexuals to serve openly in the military.

The Democratic Party favors severely progressive tax policies and the redistribution of hard-earned wealth. It does this to buy votes and political power under the guise of "social justice". Such policies are confiscatory and amount to stealing from those who earn money to give to those who vote Democrat.

The Democratic Party supports the unjust and discriminatory practice called euphemistically "Affirmative Action", whereby some are preferred for hiring, college admission and other benefits based on their membership in an alleged "victim group", generally race based.

Sphinx777 said:
Neither party follows all Orthodox teachings.

The Democratic Party is so far from just, true and Christian that a vote for it and its politicians is a vote for evil.

Voting for a Democrat with full knowledge, in most cases, is a sin.

That much is clear.

Better to stay home and not vote at all than to vote Democrat.

Maximus · May 27, 2010

Macarius said:
We are all antichrist.

That is a false statement, but it sounds sooo holy.

We are all sinners, but we are certainly NOT all antichrist.

Macarius said:
Watch out for that plank in your eye.

You are making a grave error.

I was not criticising Obama as a mere person who is a sinner. We are all sinners. I was criticising him as an American president, whose beliefs and policies affect the lives of millions of people and help shape the future course of nations.

He is evil because what he believes and does is evil.

To support him, knowing what he is, believes and does, is a sin.

If you really think Obama is okay, then instead of criticising me (a mere sinner) and trying to remove what you apparently think is a plank in my eye (my criticism of Obama), you should be defending him and explaining why Orthodox Christians should support him.

Do you, for example, think it was appropriate (i.e., good, okay) that among his first actions as President was the repeal of the Mexico City Policy, which specifically prohibited federal funds from going to international groups that offer abortions? That garnered him enthusiastic kudos from NARAL and other pro-abortion goups.

He signed that one exactly three days after he was inaugurated as President.

Macarius · May 27, 2010

Maximus said:
That is a false statement, but it sounds sooo holy.

We are all sinners, but we are certainly NOT all antichrist.

You may not be, but I am. My sins have crucified Christ.

You are making a grave error.

I was not criticising Obama as a mere person who is a sinner. We are all sinners. I was criticising him as an American president, whose beliefs and policies affect the lives of millions of people and help shape the future course of nations.

He is evil because what he believes and does is evil.

Than I too am evil, and worse a hypocrite, because though I believe in Christ I still sin, and sin is evil. What can be worse than crucifying Christ?

To support him, knowing what he is, believes and does, is a sin.

One could say the same for his opponent or any politician.

If you really think Obama is okay, then instead of criticising me (a mere sinner) and trying to remove what you apparently think is a plank in my eye (my criticism of Obama), you should be defending him and explaining why Orthodox Christians should support him.

I didn't say I support him. I was pointing out that your language of him was condeming, and that whatever he may do as a man in office before God we are no better. Calling him antichrist and evil and condemning him puts YOU in the judgment seat.

Judge his actions - fine - though I find your dogmatizing of politics to be offputting and annoying I can live with that - but judging his PERSON I am in NO WAY ok with, and you are crossing that line.

Do you, for example, think it was appropriate (i.e., good, okay) that among his first actions as President was the repeal of the Mexico City Policy, which specifically prohibited federal funds from going to international groups that offer abortions? That garnered him enthusiastic kudos from NARAL and other pro-abortion goups.

No, I disagree with that particular action. I am pro-life.

He signed that one exactly three days after he was inaugurated as President.

We do not vote on a one-party platform. You say his views on social justice amount to theivery. I say his views on redistributing wealth are in keeping with the Gospel command to care for the poor. How can we care for the poor if they cannot even get health care? How can we care for the poor if their schools have no funding? How can we be good gardeners if we don't invest in clean energy? How can we love our neighbor if we don't even talk to them (i.e. "Axis of Evil")?

I understand that you hold your political views with conviction, and that is good, but seriously - tone it down a notch. You're condeming a man as antichrist and evil whom you DO NOT KNOW (and cannot know, since you are not God). And you are doing so because of textbook allegiance to a POLITICAL party (your platform of capitalism and ethical conservativism is textbook Republicanism - it doesn't stem from Orthodoxy at all).

If you REALLY wanted to have "Orthodox" politics, you'd be in favor of Byzantine Autocracy and a command economy controlled by a central regime propped up by the military and the exclusive religious rights of the Church. If those aren't your views stop pretending your views are THE ONLY ORTHODOX VIEW because they aren't.

Forgive me,
Macarius

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