How do we know that Jesus' face was crushed?

RevKidd · May 12, 2010

The whole point is this...

How do we know that Jesus' face was crushed?

We don't know it was and scripture does not say it was crushed based on our definitions of being crushed. Bruised, beaten yes, however crushed IMO is much different.

If scripture is using the term "Crushed" it is a metaphor to describe in a sense how the messiah would be brought down.

But as it has been said... in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? He had the tar beaten out of him... Probably didn't look good that's for sure... When someone says his face was crushed, that tells me his facial and bone structure has been fractured and broken.. I don't think he would have made it to the cross at all at that point.

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 · May 13, 2010

Atlantians, Oh, thank you so much for your response. I looked up all those verses and the Greek meaning and I am 100% for sure this is correct. I wouldn't have known where to start for the answer. Thank you so much. God Bless you. This all brought me to tears and especially that last verse you posted. God Bless you again! Here's my research.

Isaiah 52:14
14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Here are the meanings of some of the words in this verse straight from the Greek dictionary:

astonied - appalled (13), astonished (8), astounded 1), causes horror (1), causing consternation(a sudden, alarming amazement or dread that results in utter confusion; dismay) 3), destitute -devoid of, or lacking (1), devastations (1), horrified make your desolate (1), make...appalled (1), make...desolate (1), makes desolate (2), ravaged (1), ruin (1), ruined (1), ruins (1).

visage - appearance, vision (1), face (2), form, saw* (1), see* (1), sight (The definition for visage - 1.the face, usually with reference to shape, features, expression, etc.; countenance. 2. aspect; appearance.

marred - disfigurement

form - appearance (2) outline, visage

more than any man, more than the sons of men - beyond human semblance;
(definition of semblance -
1. outward aspect or appearance.
2.
an assumed or unreal appearance; show.
3.
the slightest appearance or trace.
4.
a likeness, image, or copy.) - basically He didn't even look like a human being in the face

brings tears to my eyes

Matthew 26:67 - Then did they spit in his face and buffeted him and others smote him with the palms of their hands.
Here are the meanings of some of the words in this verse straight from the Greek dictionary:

buffeted - to strike with the fist, (a blow with the fist), beat...with their fists (2), harshly treated (1), roughly treated (1), tormented (1).

smote him with the palms of their hands - to strike with a rod, hence to strike with the palm of the hand, to strike with a rod, hence to strike with the palm of the hand, hit (2), stings (1), struck (2), to strike specifically to sting

Luke 22:63
mocked - ridicule (1)
smote - to skin, to thrash, beat (5), beaten (1), beating (3), flogged (2), hits (1), receive (1), receive...lashes (1), strike (1)

Luke 22:64
blindfolded him and they struck him on the face - to strike, smite, beat (3), beating (5), hits (1), strike (2), struck (1), wounding (1)
face - eye, face

Luke 22:65 - blasphemously spake they against him - to slander, hence to speak lightly or profanely of sacred things be spoken of as evil (1), blaspheme (4), blasphemed (6), blasphemers (1), blasphemes (3), blaspheming (4), dishonored (1), hurling abuse (3), malign (2), maligned (1), revile (3), reviling (1), slandered (1), slanderously reported (1), spoken against (1), utter (1).

Mark 14: 64-65
64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 · May 13, 2010

John 19:36

Ok, now I'm confused again.

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 · May 13, 2010

How could his face be disfigured if his bones weren't broken?

Atlantians · May 13, 2010

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 said:
How could his face be disfigured if his bones weren't broken?

Bones can take a lot more punishment than muscle and skin.
Crushed does not imply broken bones.

But, the point of saying that his bones were not broken was in reference to his legs not being shattered by the Roman soldiers.
He was already dead.
So the very point of the verse has nothing to do with his facial bones being damaged.

Its just a matter of context, really.

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 · May 14, 2010

Is there anyway to figure out if that verse is talking specifically about his legs or any of His bones??

Faulty · May 14, 2010

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 said:
Is there anyway to figure out if that verse is talking specifically about his legs or any of His bones??

John 19:36 refers back to Psalms 34:20, "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken"

He keeps ALL His bones, NOT ONE of them are broken.

Plus if you look at the instructions for preparing the Passover lamb, you'll find that one of the instructions are to ensure not one of its bones are broken, legs or otherwise (Ex 12:46). This applied to indicate what would come. Jesus, our Passover lamb, died in the very hour the nation was slaughtering their lambs for the Passover the next day. He poured His blood out at the same time those lambs were doing the same. Neither He nor they were to receive any broken bones in the process.

hislegacy · May 14, 2010

IloveJesusMyFather3:16 said:
How could his face be disfigured if his bones weren't broken?

Ever watch the mixed martial arts fighting shows? I've seen a number of people who took such a beating to their face that they are disfigured, yet no bones were broken.

Faulty · May 14, 2010

Balance said:
Ever watch the mixed martial arts fighting shows? I've seen a number of people who took such a beating to their face that they are disfigured, yet no bones were broken.

Yup, good point.

Atlantians · May 16, 2010

Faulty said:
John 19:36 refers back to Psalms 34:20, "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken"

He keeps ALL His bones, NOT ONE of them are broken.

Plus if you look at the instructions for preparing the Passover lamb, you'll find that one of the instructions are to ensure not one of its bones are broken, legs or otherwise (Ex 12:46). This applied to indicate what would come. Jesus, our Passover lamb, died in the very hour the nation was slaughtering their lambs for the Passover the next day. He poured His blood out at the same time those lambs were doing the same. Neither He nor they were to receive any broken bones in the process.

Oh, good point.

I just realized I was referencing Psalm 22:17, where Jesus quotes the first verse:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

"16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet —
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots."

I misremembered what the verse about the unbroken bones was referring to, and the passover motif.

Enkil · May 20, 2010

Jesus was dead, so none of his bones were broken. But that doesn't mean that he didn't have broken facial bones or what have you. Nor does it mean that he did. Either way: he was marred beyond human likeness. You couldn't recognize Him.

This is merely an example of a constant need by people to add on to scripture unnecessary and irrelevant things. We cannot settle with the knowledge of our fathers, but instead must continually add on new and strange doctrines that never were preached before. I have read ancient works and classical commentaries. This is the first time I have ever had anyone emphasize or even mention the possibility that Jesus's facial bones were broken or "crushed". This doctrine stinks of something awful.

Spock49 · May 21, 2010

The scriptures say that His bones were out of joint, not broken. And in order for Jesus to have fulfilled prophecy, that would mean that NONE of His bones were broken because even in the law, a sacrifice had to be perfect, without blemish and none of the bones were to be broken. His face was marred, not broken. For someone to say that His face was crushed implies that His face had broken bones and it is not scriptural.

Psalm 22:14
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Psalm 34:20
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken

John 19:36
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Isaiah 52:14
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

RevKidd · May 21, 2010

Enkil said:
This is merely an example of a constant need by people to add on to scripture unnecessary and irrelevant things. We cannot settle with the knowledge of our fathers, but instead must continually add on new and strange doctrines that never were preached before. I have read ancient works and classical commentaries. This is the first time I have ever had anyone emphasize or even mention the possibility that Jesus's facial bones were broken or "crushed". This doctrine stinks of something awful.

And, what is sad, most of the extra-biblical stuff comes from Pentecostals/Charismatics... Why is that. I don't browse the other forums a lot, nor do I browse in here all that often, but when I do come here, there are always the discussions started by people about total non-sense. I don't see that in the other forums nearly as much as I do in here..

Spock49 · May 21, 2010

RevKidd said:
And, what is sad, most of the extra-biblical stuff comes from Pentecostals/Charismatics... Why is that. I don't browse the other forums a lot, nor do I browse in here all that often, but when I do come here, there are always the discussions started by people about total non-sense. I don't see that in the other forums nearly as much as I do in here..

I heard a very well known preacher/evangelist teaching that this was the 2nd time that God created the Earth and that the people that had lived on the "former Earth" spirits were the demons that attack and posses people. There is alot of strange stuff out there. If folks would take the time to read the scriptures for themselves it would protect them from the weird stuff out there. It's really sad.

Enkil · May 21, 2010

1Sam1:6-7 said:
I heard a very well known preacher/evangelist teaching that this was the 2nd time that God created the Earth and that the people that had lived on the "former Earth" spirits were the demons that attack and posses people. There is alot of strange stuff out there. If folks would take the time to read the scriptures for themselves it would protect them from the weird stuff out there. It's really sad.

It is because they believe themselves personally possesed with a spirit of "prophecy" that tells them new and secret things which no one else can know. It is an abuse of "prophecy" and an abomination that threatens to undermine the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This "crushed" bone thing is a good example of it. Imagine if people started to believe this on a larger scale and unbelievers heard of it! They, who can read simple scripture, would know that we are all deluded.

Spock49 · May 21, 2010

Enkil said:
It is because they believe themselves personally possesed with a spirit of "prophecy" that tells them new and secret things which no one else can know. It is an abuse of "prophecy" and an abomination that threatens to undermine the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This "crushed" bone thing is a good example of it. Imagine if people started to believe this on a larger scale and unbelievers heard of it! They, who can read simple scripture, would know that we are all deluded.

You are so right. :amen:

How do we know that Jesus' face was crushed?

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