Pentecostal Leaders Talk Faith Healing, Reject

nephilimiyr · May 1, 2010

JimfromOhio said:

And that all goes for you too since you decided to give Tamara a big thumbs up for that post of hers.

Yitzchak · May 1, 2010

I think it is more appropriate for all of us to discuss the issues and not make it personal where we do not need to. The article cited did not mention word of faith at all. If the issue is having faith in faith , which the artilce did mention , then that is what should be discussed.

So why don't we discuss having faith in faith ?

Yitzchak · May 1, 2010

JimfromOhio said:
There's alot of talk about this in the news, locally and nationally.

This issue has been building for years. George Wood felt he needed to distance The Assembly of God from the extreme groups so that people would not misunderstand and think that the Assembly of God believes in withholding medical care from sick people.

NorrinRadd · May 1, 2010

I used to enjoy talking about WoF-related issues, but around here I've mostly abandoned the attempt. It's just too surreal. I'm one of the ones who "doesn't understand" and "misrepresents" WoF. I spent almost 10 years in an IAOGI church that taught WoF. Attended 2-3 services per week. Visited about three other WoF-teaching churches (a CoG, one or two Christian Assemblies/CCNA, and one of uncertain affiliation). Participated in Bible studies led by WoF church members, and often using Kenneth Hagin books as study aids, several times per month. Devoured books and tapes by Kenneth Hagins Sr. and Jr., and read quite a few by Osborne, Osteen, Capps, Hayes, Copeland, and others. As part of the "helps" ministry at the church, I consumed books and tapes by Bob Lemon, Bob (?) Yandian, and Mark Barclay.

Then I come here and learn what I read, heard, and experienced was not "real" WoF. :o :swoon:

psalms 91 · May 1, 2010

pdudgeon said:
then you don't understand the concept behind positive confession.

positive confession is getting my thinking to agree with God's thinking on the matter....in other words to say the same thing that He says about something.

In order to do that we first have to know what God says, in order to come into agreement with Him.

but in your scenario you would have the opposite happening---God comming into agreement with what WE said. and that's not how it works.

Amen, although from what I have read I am sure that this will fall on deaf ears. Shame that anything connected or thought to be connected to WOF gets attacked by only a certain few. I question which board they should really be posting as ot doesnt seem to fit here very much.

pdudgeon · May 1, 2010

Yitzchak said:
The followers of Christ church in Oregon....

Doubt, secrecy circle Followers of Christ

there are two things that you need to know about the above newpaper articles quoted here. (for easy reference, posts 76 and 77, page 8)

first, The Oregonian is a liberal newspaper, published in a liberal state.

secondly, any time that members of this forum read about 'hyper faith religion' they will automatically associate it with WOF. they will ignore the fact that the article is actually talking about a named group in which the words 'Word of Faith" do not appear, and that the group spoken of has all the recognized signs of a local cult.

and that's how this thread got to talking about WOF in relation to the article.

Yitzchak · May 1, 2010

pdudgeon said:
there are two things that you need to know about the above newpaper articles quoted here. (for easy reference, posts 76 and 77, page 8)

first, The Oregonian is a liberal newspaper, published in a liberal state.

secondly, any time that members of this forum read about 'hyper faith religion' they will automatically associate it with WOF. they will ignore the fact that the article is actually talking about a named group in which the words 'Word of Faith" do not appear, and that the group spoken of has all the recognized signs of a local cult.

and that's how this thread got to talking about WOF in relation to the article.

The article cited in the opening post seems to have as it's main focus , these extreme cult like groups that have members dying because they are not seeking medical care when they are not healed.

From the article...

The roundtable discussion which also included Assemblies of God leaders L. Alton Garrison, assistant general superintendent, and Douglas E. Clay, general treasurer comes after a number of faith healing cases involving parents whose sick children died of easily treatable conditions.

nephilimiyr · May 1, 2010

Yitzchak said:
The article cited in the opening post seems to have as it's main focus , these extreme cult like groups that have members dying because they are not seeking medical care when they are not healed.

From the article...

Yep, and in my hometown here there was a recent case that did make national headlines and network news programes where this 12 years old girl died from a diabetes attack because her parents refuse to take the sick girl to the doctor. I've talked about this case here before. My pastor felt sorry for them because the whole community demonized them, as can be expected, and had invited them to services.
They came a few times but my pastor had to eventually ask them not to come back because these people were really out there.

The mother believed that God had killed her daughter so that her and her husband could bring their case to the US supreme court. Although no one in my church condemned these people I felt that they should have at least accepted responsibility for their daughters death but they arrogantly saw themselves as having done nothing wrong. They didn't know their daughter had diabetes because they never had taken her to a doctor, all they knew is that she was sick and getting worse. They stood in faith believing in her healing but she died instead. You would think that would get some people to maybe think twice about the doctrines they believe but not them.

lismore · May 1, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Yep, and in my hometown here there was a recent case that did make national headlines and network news programes where this 12 years old girl died from a diabetes attack because her parents refuse to take the sick girl to the doctor.

So why didnt God heal the little girl?

A sad story

Simon Peter · May 1, 2010

I wonder if someone from WoF, could answer a question for me.

As you (WoF) believe it is God's will to heal you, or actually that God has already healed you/provided for your healing, what is keeping so many of you from experiencing that healing?

IOW, when someone is not healed, why not?

Thanks in advance,
Simon

hislegacy · May 1, 2010

Simon Peter said:
I wonder if someone from WoF, could answer a question for me.

As you (WoF) believe it is God's will to heal you, or actually that God has already healed you/provided for your healing, what is keeping so many of you from experiencing that healing?

IOW, when someone is not healed, why not?

Thanks in advance,
Simon

http://www.christianforums.com/t6338641/

You are welcome in advance.

probinson · May 1, 2010

Simon Peter said:
I wonder if someone from WoF, could answer a question for me.

As you (WoF) believe it is God's will to heal you, or actually that God has already healed you/provided for your healing, what is keeping so many of you from experiencing that healing?

IOW, when someone is not healed, why not?

Here is a pretty good summation of my beliefs concerning healing;

So there is no confusion, let me tell everyone exactly where I stand.

I believe healing is the will of God.

When sickness tries to attach itself to my body, I thank God for healing me and I command the sickness to flee. I remind Satan that he has no authority over me and I command him to flee. I do not deny sickness. I deny sickness THE RIGHT to be in my body.

Frequently, I am healed immediately. If healing is not manifested that very instant, having done all to stand, I stand therefore, outfitted with the whole armour of God. I continue to thank God for my healing until I see a physical manifestation of it. I do not allow doubt to enter my mind. Much to the dismay of the people around me, I confess that I have already been healed by the stripes of Jesus, even if it doesn't look like I am. Some people call this denial. God calls it calling those things that be not as though they were.

I do not condemn people for their sickness. I don't tell people all they need is faith, even though that may be true, only God can show a person that. I do not try to speculate why people are not healed. I simply do not know.

I realize that people who are sick or disabled are quite capable of giving glory to the Father. I don't think for one second that a sickness or disability necessarily indicates that there is sin in a person's life or that they have somehow done something to "deserve" their sickness or disease.

I believe that Jesus emphasized faith for a reason. I recognize that God can heal without faith present, but after a study of Jesus' ministry here on earth, I have formed the belief that faith is something quite important to God. Indeed, without faith, it is impossible to please God.

I do not think I'm "better" than anyone else because I have been miraculously healed. I believe and try to convey that there is nothing special about me, aside from the fact that I am a child of God. I believe that if you are a child of God, you have the same benefits.

I do not believe that God is punishing people. I believe that God is a just God and a God of His Word. Therefore, when I read "the wages of sin is death", I must believe that is true. While not all sickness comes from sin, some most definitely does. I will not try to judge who is sin and who is not based on their physical condition. Again, only God knows the heart.

This basically sums up every accusation people have made against me in every healing thread I've ever participated in. For anyone who took the time to read this, now you know where I stand.

I realize it's easy and more comforting to have a one-size-fits-all answer (i.e., God's will), but sometimes we just don't have all the answers. So rather than try to create an answer (i.e., saying something is or isn't God's will), I will just tell you, quite honestly, that I don't have all the answers, and I have never claimed to.

JimfromOhio · May 1, 2010

Is God sovereign or is He subject to any condition outside Himself relating to healing or any other brethrens' desires? We are to look at the church at Philadelphia, Christ assures that only He opens and closes every door of opportunity for salvation or service. The key is the symbol of sovereign authority and ultimate power. The church at Philadelphia was holy because Christ was the center of it. It was true because Christ, the truth, was its focus. It had an open door of salvation to God and to missions because Christ unlocked the door. Everything about the church revolves around Jesus Christ, not programs. Unrealistic expectations about everything in life. Thinking that life and ministry should only bring, fulfillment and comfort. Its the desire and the need for no conflict in your life at all. Thats an unrealistic expectation and it tends to get people off track in their walk with the Lord. The problem is, life is not like that. God has sovereignly chosen to accomplish all He has at our churches--we're just creatures. Although He works through us, Christ continues to build His church the way He wants to in spite of what we do (cf. Matt. 16:18). But beyond His sovereign work, we must submit to certain principles that will allow any church to be what the Lord wants it to be.

probinson · May 1, 2010

NorrinRadd said:
I used to enjoy talking about WoF-related issues, but around here I've mostly abandoned the attempt. It's just too surreal. I'm one of the ones who "doesn't understand" and "misrepresents" WoF. I spent almost 10 years in an IAOGI church that taught WoF. Attended 2-3 services per week. Visited about three other WoF-teaching churches (a CoG, one or two Christian Assemblies/CCNA, and one of uncertain affiliation). Participated in Bible studies led by WoF church members, and often using Kenneth Hagin books as study aids, several times per month. Devoured books and tapes by Kenneth Hagins Sr. and Jr., and read quite a few by Osborne, Osteen, Capps, Hayes, Copeland, and others. As part of the "helps" ministry at the church, I consumed books and tapes by Bob Lemon, Bob (?) Yandian, and Mark Barclay.

Then I come here and learn what I read, heard, and experienced was not "real" WoF. :o

What never ceases to amaze me is how two people can sit and listen to the same things but hear very different things.

I have attended my current church nearly my entire life. I can count on one hand the number of services that I've missed in the last 10-20 years. When the doors are open, I am there. I currently serve as the worship leader and sound and media tech, but I have served in varying capacities over the years, including children's ministry, music, youth ministry, and I've also served on our church's leadership team.

During that time, I've seen a lot of people come and go, people who have sat under the same teaching, in the same room, listening to the same pastor and sermons. But when you would talk to some people outside of church about the week's sermon, it was literally quite shocking the things that people heard.

And that is what astounds me. There is currently NO ONE at my church (including the pastor) that has been there longer than I have. And yet if you talk to people who attended there for a year or two 10 years ago, they'll gleefully (and quite inaccurately) tell you what we teach. But the thing is, these people are so far out in left field, it's hard to imagine how they could have possibly been sitting in the same room with some of the nonsense they come up with.

How does one explain that? When I'm sitting, quite literally, 4 feet away from the same person and they come to such a radically different conclusion than I, is it the teaching that is flawed, or is it the individual's receiving of that teaching?

Over the years at this forum, people have tried to make it sound like WoF teaching is "dangerous", but that's not true. For an example of something dangerous, if you touch a hot stove, you'll get burned. If I touch a hot stove, I'll get burned. The common denominator is the hot stove, and therefore we can rightly deduce that the hot stove is indeed "dangerous" and will certainly burn anyone who touches it.

But the same can not be said of WoF teaching. Some people have heard WoF teaching and claimed that it has ruined their life and destroyed their faith. Others (including myself) say that they've heard WoF teaching and it has built their faith, given them hope, and helped them to grow in their relationship with God, coming to a greater understanding about His Love and grace.

So the common denominator is NOT the WoF teachings (since we're listening to the same things), but rather in how those teachings are heard and received.

This is what my experience has shown me, and it holds true for far more than WoF. I've sat in the board room in meetings at work and listened to the same things my co-workers were listening to, but they heard something quite different than I did.

I think it's human nature, and rather than realizing that the message is AT LEAST 50% in how it's received, people would rather just blame the messenger than admit to their part in receiving it gladly.

Two people, having been subjected to the exact same teachings, will very often come to incredibly different conclusions.

JimfromOhio · May 1, 2010

Like many Christian denominations as well as non-denominational churches, share common beliefs in the major aspects of the Christian faith, while differing in key and secondary doctrines as we seen happened in CF.

Leaders and teachers are the mark of good leaders is that what is difficult and complicated becomes simple to understand. One of the major marks of a healthy church is sound teaching, because if a Church get this one right, all of the others should follow. If a local church get the priority of the Word established, then we have in place the single most important aspect of the churchs life, and growing health is virtually assured, because God has decided to act by His Spirit through His Word. There are Christians who are zealous for their "doctrines" and forget the sensitivity of others regarding certain topics. My main problem with Word of Faith preachers are using "positive" to attract people with itching ears so they will be motivated to do something for themselves rather than sound spiritual doctrine.

Yitzchak · May 1, 2010

probinson said:
What never ceases to amaze me is how two people can sit and listen to the same things but hear very different things.

.....

How does one explain that? When I'm sitting, quite literally, 4 feet away from the same person and they come to such a radically different conclusion than I, is it the teaching that is flawed, or is it the individual's receiving of that teaching?

I have told this story several times. When I was at the Mennonite church they had a rule against wearing ties because they consider it worldly and not humble. Then I went to the Assembly of God church and joined the choir. They had a rule I had to wear a tie. They said it was about humbling myself to submit to leadership and also about honoring God by giving my best.

Two opposite rules. Different virtues being emphasized. Both biblical. I could have focused on the negative and seen a contradiction. Instead I saw two sincere churches both trying to serve God in different ways.

Then there is the time my daughter when she was young was told by some people at the church we visited that we would go to hell for having a television. She told me she was glad we didn't go to that church because God was much more strict with them. My daughter said that God allows us to have a television and is so strict with that church that they are not allowed to have t.v.'s or they go to hell. I decided my daughter actually had good theology at a young age.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Sometimes there are actual disagreements. But most of the time it is just like my tie wearing example. Churches emphasizing different virtues or doctrines.

Sometimes it is like the television example. Churches put burdens upon themselves that we don't have to carry.

I am not word of faith. But I choose to look at them as emphasizing true christian virtues. I can find good in every denomination. If we take the time to ask and realy listen we will find most people in churches are trying to follow God the best way they know how.

Sometimes we are like someone argueing with the Mennonite church I went to and accusing them of leagalism and all they hear us saying is that we are argueing for pride and worldlyness.

JimfromOhio · May 1, 2010

Yitzchak said:
I have told this story several times. When I was at the Mennonite church they had a rule against wearing ties because they consider it worldly and not humble. Then I went to the Assembly of God church and joined the choir. They had a rule I had to wear a tie. They said it was about humbling myself to submit to leadership and also about honoring God by giving my best.

Two opposite rules. Different virtues being emphasized. Both biblical. I could have focused on the negative and seen a contradiction. Instead I saw two sincere churches both trying to serve God in different ways.

Then there is the time my daughter when she was young was told by some people at the church we visited that we would go to hell for having a television. She told me she was glad we didn't go to that church because God was much more strict with them. My daughter said that God allows us to have a television and is so strict with that church that they are not allowed to have t.v.'s or they go to hell. I decided my daughter actually had good theology at a young age.

Sometimes there are actual disagreements. But most of the time it is just like my tie wearing example. Churches emphasizing different virtues or doctrines.

Sometimes it is like the television example. Churches put burdens upon themselves that we don't have to carry.

I am not word of faith. But I choose to look at them as emphasizing true christian virtues. I can find good in every denomination. If we take the time to ask and realy listen we will find most people in churches are trying to follow God the best way they know how.

Sometimes we are like someone argueing with the Mennonite church I went to and accusing them of leagalism and all they hear us saying is that we are argueing for pride and worldlyness.

Whenever legalism of faith doctrines replaces grace because we are in different stages of life with different demands. It is the whole difference between legalism and true Christianity. Christ's blood counts as payment for all our sins, and His fulfillment of the law counts as all the merit we need. I remember a quote by Yancey, Jesus reserved his hardest words for the hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed and legalism.

psalms 91 · May 1, 2010

JimfromOhio said:
Whenever legalism of faith doctrines replaces grace because we are in different stages of life with different demands. It is the whole difference between legalism and true Christianity. Christ's blood counts as payment for all our sins, and His fulfillment of the law counts as all the merit we need. I remember a quote by Yancey, Jesus reserved his hardest words for the hidden sins of hypocrisy, pride, greed and legalism.

Yes, Chriist paid for all our sins and freed us from the law and yes pride can be a really bad thing, pride comes inmmany forms and shapes as evidenced on this board.

lovesblessing · May 1, 2010

Healing doesn't come from focusing on all the snakes in the grass, it comes from focusing on the bronz snake on the cross......in other words, look away from self, good, bad and ugly and look fixedly on Jesus on the cross......make Him your focus and what He did for you, and NOT what you did or are doing, not the symptoms, not the past experiences you have had and Father God will see your faith, which you will not be concious of, only of Jesus and His goodness and grace, and you will receive your healing......because you know that it is all about Jesus and His work at the cross.....and none of it is about you.........

Pentecostal Leaders Talk Faith Healing, Reject

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