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MrBojangles
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On the Bizarro world WoF maybe.
But here in reality land planet earth, WoF teaches the Biblical position on prosperity.
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But here in reality land planet earth, WoF teaches the Biblical position on prosperity.
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MrBojangles
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LOL....
pyramid schemes????
That is a first.
I will have to add that one to my list of silly things to share.
pyramid schemes...
wow
pyramid schemes????
That is a first.
I will have to add that one to my list of silly things to share.
pyramid schemes...
wow
I was in a church with a WOF pastor, a big shot from Rhema South Africa for seven years. Unfortunately that was how WOF was presented: formulas, pyramid schemes, striving, double-speak aka positive confession, name-it-and-claim-it.
Nothing about stewardship, wisdom, saving, budgeting etc.
You'll have to face up to the fact that for many people, that is how WOF has been presented to them.
I'm perfectly willing to listen to alternative WOFs, but I'm telling you, that was how WOF was presented to me.
From my experience I don't look on Stewardship or 'God wants to bless you' teachings as WOF. I look on people selling anointed prosperity daffodils or figurines as WOF, 100 fold returns, telecons etc.
Bless You
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upinarms
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so the Lord's pray is Jesus talking to himself? and I said it's a miss quote of Christ.One of the above DID say it; Wesley. That's why he's included in the poll.
Jesus didn't say anything like that, so Wesley can't have misquoted him.
Jesus didn't say it was wrong to have money, obviously, as he needed it sometimes. He taught that it was wrong to put money, or love of money, before God. He said that we can't serve both God and money, (and it was clear that we should put God and his kingdom first), and
urged us not to store up earthly riches at the expense of heavenly treasure, (Wesley preached a sermon on that also.)
The widow was an example of someone who DID put God first; she gave all she had, and was commended by Jesus for her committment.
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On the Bizarro world WoF maybe.
But here in reality land planet earth, WoF teaches the Biblical position on prosperity.
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What?
I know you did.
A MISquote, is when you quote someone, but quote them incorrectly.
Jesus didn't say, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can - so he has not been quoted at all, never mind incorrectly.
If Jesus HAD said that, and Wesley had said, 'Jesus said, "earn all you can and save most of it for yourself",' THAT would be a misquote.
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upinarms
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This is the problem with man. A man let say John Wesley is a pastor speaking on behalf of God. And yet say's something that is not part of the nature of the one He say's he is speaking for is a belief of his. I was being nice when I said miss quote, It's a doctrine or teaching of demons and not God. For Jesus the example made it plan in His teaching that "All things are from God and to His glory." there by it is a miss quote of or understanding of the nature of God and brings condemnation upon anybody that doesn't practice or believe thats it's right nature of God.What?
I know you did.
A MISquote, is when you quote someone, but quote them incorrectly.
Jesus didn't say, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can - so he has not been quoted at all, never mind incorrectly.
If Jesus HAD said that, and Wesley had said, 'Jesus said, "earn all you can and save most of it for yourself",' THAT would be a misquote.
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He never said that those words of his were a teaching, or words of instruction, directly from God himself.
How is earning, saving or giving money against the nature of God. Where does Scripture say that?
That's ridiculous.
1. The Bible does not forbid us from working and earning money.
Jesus told a parable about 3 men who were given large sums of money. The two who were commended by their master, had worked hard and doubled what they had been given.
He told another one about an employer hiring labourers.
The disciples were fishermen; they doubtless sold the fish they caught for money.
Several women supported Jesus financially - no doubt from money their husbands earnt.
Paul worked as a tentmaker.
2. The Bible does not forbid us from saving.
The last man in the first parable I mentioned was lazy and did nothing with the money he had been given. His master was angry that he hadn't even put it in the bank to get interest. (Luke 19:23)
Proverbs 6:6 says,
"Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!
...... It stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest"
3. The Bible certainly does not forbid us from giving.
Everything we have comes from God, but the Bible does NOT say it is right for all of us to give it all away to others.
Ananias and Sapphira were criticised NOT because they did not give all their money to the disciples, but because they lied about it. The money they got from their field was theirs, they could do as they wished with it (Acts 5:4). Thery kept some for themselves, which they were allowed to do, BUT told Peter that they were giving him the full amount. They claimed they were giving everything to God, but they weren't.
Paul says that each person should give what they have decided in their heart it is right to give, not reluctantly, because the Lord loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor 9:7)
He also said that we are to be wise stewatds of all God's gifts to us.
Everything we have is from God - including gifts, and the ability to make money from using those gifts so that the work of the Lord may be financed.
Some people today do live by faith - but the money they are given by others has come from the wages those people have earned. The food, clothes, equipment people are given has been paid for by those who have jobs and earn a wage.
Just because everything we have comes from God, it doesn't mean that we can't have jobs and benefit from, and enjoy, the money that we get paid.
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heatherfb
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Can't believe I've just wasted five minutes of my life Reading this thread! The same old people making the same old arguments! Hope the main wof forum is up and running soon and I can steer clear of this drivel!
(not directing that to you Balance, was a good op but has been taken over by the usual arguments!)
(not directing that to you Balance, was a good op but has been taken over by the usual arguments!)
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Why did we get into WOF anyway?
The OP said he just wanted to know who had said something. Maybe he had another agenda, or maybe I missed something?
I'd far rather talk about John Wesley.
The OP said he just wanted to know who had said something. Maybe he had another agenda, or maybe I missed something?
I'd far rather talk about John Wesley.
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dies-l
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The OP was an attempt to paint Wesley as WOF. The follow up post by the original poster made this clear.
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upinarms
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Was John Wesley a preacher or pastor or not? I have said nothing about what one should or shouldn't do with one's money. I have only said God is in control of the money and the man and not the man. Which is something Wesley left out.
Lord thy ask "was it his sin or his mother and father sin that made him blind" "Neither it was for the glory of God." I wonder what price the man had on his blindness. Or what price did he have on his sight. I wonder how long he saved up for that event.
Lord thy ask "was it his sin or his mother and father sin that made him blind" "Neither it was for the glory of God." I wonder what price the man had on his blindness. Or what price did he have on his sight. I wonder how long he saved up for that event.
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LOL!!!
No, my friend. The follow up post was an attempt to use sarcasm to show that Word of Faith is not the only group that preaches on material wealth.
Wesley could not be Word of Faith, he was 100 years before there was a Word of Faith.
BUT
Wesley did preach on wealth, have miraculous healings, have people "slain in the spirit" and GASP! Break out in laughter as he ministered.
That is well documented in his own writings. He never made an issue of it, nor did it become the forefront of his ministry, but it happened.
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He was an Anglican clergyman, and the son of an Anglican clergyman.
He was also the founder of the Methodist church.
How do you know that Wesley left it out unless you have read ALL of his sermons - and there are several thousand of them? If you HAVE read all his thousands of sermons, how come you don't know that he was a preacher and Minister?I said in my first post that this was from sermon 44 - the correct use of money. These are the 3 main points of his sermon, if you read it, you'll find he explains and develops each point.
Once again - what?
The healing you're referring to is recorded in John 9. The man was blind; Jesus healed him. He did not have to save up and pay for it. We can do nothing to earn God's blessings and free gifts.
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JimfromOhio
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John Wesley was an extremely wealthy man. We think of John Wesley as a great man of God, of prayer, and devoted to time in the Word of God. He was up every morning for hours studying in the Greek text. We think of him as a man of some low means, but John Wesley was an extremely wealthy man. He gained his wealth from the hymns he wrote and the books he penned. At one period in his life he gave away forty thousand pounds sterling...a fortune in his time. Yet, when John Wesley died his estate was worth twenty-eight pounds. He didn't lay up his treasure on earth. When it came in it went right back out into the lives of the people -- invested in the kingdom of God.
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I wasn't aware he wrote any. Charles wrote over 6000, but John?
(He may have written one or two, I'll need to check.)
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reminds me of the joke about the Methodist student who couldn't get up in time for chapel. Eventually his Minister said, in desperation; "Good heavens, don't you realise that John Wesley got up at 4.00 every morning?"
The student replied; "so would I if I were married to Wesley's wife."
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1. No, but you were the one who brought it up
2. I am not assuming you know, or don't know, anything about Wesley. I've tried to answer the questions you asked about him. But it is a fact that if you had read his sermons, you wouldn't have needed to ask if he was a preacher.
3. I know. But it was you who said that none or the people listed in the poll said the word, earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can. That is incorrect. John Wesley said them.
Actually, the OP was very simple - the question was, who said those words, and we've given the answer. I don't quite see how it's lead to all this discussion about WOF and Wesley's theology.
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upinarms
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1. that's the point God was left out of the list.
2. the point being, just because someone say's they are a preacher or pastor that doesn't mean they know jack about the nature of God.
3. The point "For the love of Christ controls us," Not be judge by what IIIII earn or save or give. these things are good by they are a gift from God. which is left out of the OP and me,myself and I are the subject.
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