The state of "art" today.

That's interesting... doesn't it say somewhere in the bible about people devouring their children in the last days or something like that? I know it says they will eat the flesh off their arms, maybe that's next after this as the grossnesss of grossness live vis satelitte.

Surely judgement will come. He's a Christian too!

Probably a convert of some Roman authority. But then again who knows. What denomination is this guy do they say?

Originally posted by Matthew9:9
I honestly don't see how you consider yourself able to judge whether or not I think about my reactions to things which offend my sensibilities. 

[snip]

I had a strong reaction to the story, examined why, and did not change my mind. Why does it seem that the only "proper" response to such works of "art" is for the public to "open their minds" to the artist's perceptions?

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I'm not judging you--notice I said "if" you refused to think about the world, then you would be missing out, IMO.  I make no judgement about whether you are doing such a thing. 

I don't think that examining your perceptions causes you to change your mind about your beliefs, necessarily.  But you (general you) should try to examine those perceptions and understand why you have such reactions.  Having an open mind doesn't mean that you have to accept everything--but you should be able to consider different things.

--tibac

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
That's interesting... doesn't it say somewhere in the bible about people devouring their children in the last days or something like that? I know it says they will eat the flesh off their arms, maybe that's next after this as the grossnesss of grossness live vis satelitte.

Surely judgement will come. He's a Christian too!

Probably a convert of some Roman authority. But then again who knows. What denomination is this guy do they say?

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I'd like to see chapter and verse for your assertion, as I'm unfamiliar with what you're referring to.  Why does it matter what denomination this person is? 

Why is it surprising that this person is a Christian? 

--tibac

Actually I'm not surprised at all that he maintains he's a Christian.

(edited by staff, Unity is our purpose here, please read the rules)

Isaiah 9:20 - And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

Jeremiah 19:9 - And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.

KJV

So, Live4Jesus, you think that this person is not really a true Christian? Why isn't he?

I think you may be a little mis-informed about Catholics, maybe you should read more about them--there's a forum here for you to learn more. Why would you think that Catholics would have no problem with a person doing these things that Zhu is doing?

Are the people who do strange things in Jesus's name real Christians? Why or why not?

Thanks for the Bible verses, what do you think that they mean/or are trying to tell us?

--tibac

Well I have to say, this artist seems to have gained what he set out to achieve ....

I have read several very emotive threads in several places over the last two or three days, and taken part in one or two myself. What is clear is that this "artist" has provoked an extreme response to his "work". Isn't that what every artist wants? We have made his "work" successful just by having a response to it. It makes us feel something. Okay, so that "something" is absolute revulsion - but it has made us feel.

(FWIW I do not support it at all - I think both the artist and Channel 4 have shown themselves contemptible for their portrayal of cannibalism as art -

not that it's my place to judge, of course ..... )

Zipporah,

I agree that by continuing to talk about this, we are giving it some kind of value/siccess. I think we've all filled our "utter disgust" experience for the week. What is sad, though, is that there are plenty of non-fictional/artistic occurances in the world for us to get this experience from--we just insulate ourselves from that.

The work would be more valuable (in the 'making us feel utter disgust' category) if there were actually little in this world to provoke that experience naturally. As it is, I think that this is just gratuitous grossness.

--tibac

Wildernesse -

I couldn't agree more.

One question: is this actually legit? Is he really munching on a dead baby? Or could it possibly be an elaborate setup?

Just curious.

It's legit.  It's a real dead stillborn baby.

It's unclear. The artist claims it's a real fetus (and that eating it made him sick), but it's not certain that he's telling the truth.

-Chris

The problem (from a Christian's perspective) and the joy (from an artist's perspective) of "art" is that "art" is not strictly definable. It is an expression of an individual ideal of creativity. It is subject to enjoyment and ridicule and loathing all at the same time. As detestable as I find this "artist's" morbid creation, if in his mind it is art, then (as much as it pains to say it) it is.

Dewjunkie,

Why is this art a problem from a Christian perspective? I asked this sort of question to another poster, but she hasn't returned yet. The artist claims Christ, why do you as a Christian have a problem with it?

Are there verses in the Bible that tell us not to do this?

I ask because everyone seems up in the air about this being non-Christian--but no one is being all that specific about why eating a dead baby is un-Christian. Plus, I just like to argue with you!

--tibac

art is self expression. i guess if you want to express yourself in any way that is not illegal that is your right. everyone has different tastes and likes. something that to me is beautiful might be boring or shocking to others. i don't usually criticize any artwork because it is all unique and individual. still, i don't think artists that will offend more then half the population should get that populations tax money to spend creating their art. they can finance their art independantly or get groups and companies to sponser them rather then taking money from those who don't support the artwork. also, i don;t think airing a program like that is appropriate. people surf channels and they all haven't watched the warning or know what to expect. what if you were watching tv and eating supper and that came on?!?! i think things that are going to offend a huge segment of the population should be shown pay-per-view *another way to fund the art* which requires that you know what you're going to see before it happens. also, this type of art is not really self expression so much as trying to gross people out and get attention. of course christianity does not encourage cannibalism! no religion does, not even those that most people consider bad.

Harpy,

What's wrong with cannibalism? Or dismembering a baby? (Which is what this makes me think of, the why's of these questions. I don't think that art is just self-expression.) I think these things are very bad and wrong and should never be done--but why? How do we know that Christianity is obviously against this? I've never heard a Sunday school lesson about why it would be bad to eat a human. This person says he's a Christian, and he apparently has no problem with this.

These are the interesting and important questions that I think this "art" raises--not that I think it needs to be done because we could probably answer them fine without this contrived scenario, but I do think that those questions are valid and useful.

And I don't think anyone knows where Zhu got his funding--maybe it's all out of his pocket.

--tibac

Originally posted by wildernesse
Harpy,

What's wrong with cannibalism? Or dismembering a baby? (Which is what this makes me think of, the why's of these questions. I don't think that art is just self-expression.) I think these things are very bad and wrong and should never be done--but why? How do we know that Christianity is obviously against this? I've never heard a Sunday school lesson about why it would be bad to eat a human. This person says he's a Christian, and he apparently has no problem with this. 

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  Below are verses in the Bible that have to do with cannibalism.  God speaks of cannibalism as a means to show the Israelites just how demented they would become without Him, due to their disobedience.  It is always referred to in a negative light, and as murder.  

Deuteronomy 28:53-57

Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. The most gentle and sensitive woman among you - so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot - will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

2 Kings 6:26-29

 As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, "Help me, my lord the king!" The king replied, "If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?" Then he asked her, "What's the matter?" She answered, "This woman said to me, 'Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we'll eat my son.' So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

Jeremiah 19:9

I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.

Lamentations 4:10

With their own hands compassionate women
have cooked their own children,
who became their food
when my people were destroyed.

 

I have got to give you some blessings for that post Autumn!  Excellent!  Thank you....

~BF

Fabulous, Autumn! Thank you for the scripture verses and for your interpretation/explanation (which I think is apt).



--tibac

From the Christian perspective, the body of a baptized Christian is the dwelling place of God Himself, and as such, must be treated with the greatest respect, even when the person is deceased.

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells within you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are. (1 Cor 3:16)

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? (1 Cor 6:19a)

For we are the temple of the living God; as God has said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God and they shall be My people." (2 Cor 6:16b).

There are myriad examples in the collective Christian literature of this being the reason that Christians always treated the bodies of believers who had died with care and respect. Given this view of the human body, it would be repugnant for any devout Christian to engage in the consumption of human flesh.