How are we saved?

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Yes[,] it seems Paul is saying "God will give HEAVEN to those who DO GOOD WORKS"---but in context, Paul is clearly saying "salvation is by RECEIVING CHRIST, which CAUSES the good deeds".

It seems that way because it is that way. You violate your own pontifications about keeping the contextual meaning. Paul nowhere said "Salvation is by receiving Christ" and yet you give that illusory statement the iron force of scripture to wrench Paul's clear statements from their unamibiguous meaning.

Paul said that we are not saved by doing the works of the law but he did not free us from the law of good (and bad) deeds. God will still render to each according to his works: eternal life to those who seek immortality by doing good. Romas 2: 6,7.

The only way to reconcile Paul and James is to jettison the renaissance theological mantra, "Faith only, faith only, faith only," and accept that what Paul said was intended to free Christians from works of the Law of Moses but not from the law of good deeds. James said, "A man is justified by works and not by faith only." James 2: 24.
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Where in James does it say "we are saved by works"? What chapter and verse?

James 2: 26: [A] is justified by works and not by faith only.

All your frothing evasions will not edit that statement out of the book of James or out of the Bible. Luther at least was honest about it---he said that James should be taken out of the Bible. Were you truly ignorant of this passage? I think not.

All that you have written about how we as his children produce good fruit is wonderful but it does not help reconcile Paul and James, both of whom would agree with the priniciple that a good tree produces good fruit.

Paul said we are justified by faith and not by works of the law but that by doing good (works) we can seek immortality. James said we are not justified by faith alone but by (good) works (but not works of the law.)
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson No, I don't hold them to a higher standard---rather, to the same standard as myself. [/B]

You stated that Catholics who were saved had to understand salvation. I would add that you and many others do not understand how we are saved any more than a number of people in the first century who received Paul's and Jame's letters to explain salvation to them. Understanding it all has never been a requirement of salvation but you did state that saved Catholics had to understand salvation (in the same way you do.)

You also stated that Catholics must "surrender and submit" their lives to Him, and produce "DEEDS." The same standard then should apply to all who wish to be saved. I would like to see the citation that supports your position of "surrender and submit" since this sounds more like Mohammed's characterization of the successful relationship with God. In any case, if that requirement is good for the goose, it is also good for the gander. I am curious why you would require "DEEDS" from Catholics and not from yourself or Protestants. There is a reason for doing so but I'll see if you can figure it out.

You have listed at least four items one must do in order to be a saved Catholic and if you wish to apply that standard to all Christians, then you have agreed with Paul and James that salvation in NOT by faith alone, faith alone, faith alone.
 
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Originally posted by Julie
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

 

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)




 
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)

*******

Very true so far!
Yet, the GOSPEL is 'EVERLASTING' as is its CONDITIONAL COVENANT the ten Commandments! So a 1/2 truth without the EVERLASTING COVENANT is not the EVERLASTING GOSPEL! Neither, has a start or an ending!

Case in point: I believe this half of your postings, they are TRUTH! Notice the thought of "IF" & "BELIVETH ON HIM"? Regardless of us, or Cain in Gen. 4:7, we are CREATED for works of service. There is no other way? All TRUE BELIEF brings forth LOVING WORKS! (slavery) Who became Cain's master? (did he work? have a DESIRE?)

Notice that the promises that you quoted [alone] by themselves, could be opposite of 1 John 2:4's inspiration. "He that SAYETH, I KNOW HIM, (love Him) and keepeth not His comandments, IS a liar, and there is NO TRUTH in him."

I do not suggest that this is what you meant. ---P/N/B/
******


"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

 

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)




"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)



"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, LUKE 24:45
 
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Ben johnson

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That statement was not mine. It was the statement of Paul around which you have been doing a one-man tango. Paul said that God would reward those who seek immortality by doing good. As long as you have a license to subtract Paul's meaning from his writings, and add a meaning more fitting to your private theology, then we can have no meaningful dialogue.
Let's deal with some of the things Paul said:

"I am amazed that you are so quicky deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel. We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we believed that in Christ we may be justified by faith and not by works---since by works of Law no flesh is justified. But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? NO! For if I rebuild what I once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through Law then Christ died needlessly. You foolish Galatians! Who bewitched you? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? You were running well---who hindered you from obeying the truth? It was for freedom Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. If you seek to be justified by Law, you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE!!! For we through the Spirit, BY FAITH, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ neither circumcision (Law) nor uncircumcision means anything, but FAITH working through LOVE. Walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law." Gal1:6, 2:15-18, 3:1,3, 5:7,1-6,16,18

Passages such as GALATIANS, forbid us to perceive Paul saying in Romans 2, "salvation is by WORKS". I summarized really the whole book of Galatians by quoting selected verses---presenting that salvation IS by FAITH, faith alone that WORKS THROUGH LOVE. The "faith that produces no works", is dead (unsaved) faith, not-really-faith-at-all. TRUE faith, PRODUCES works.

We are not saved by good works. That is not what Paul meant in Romans 2. Else Paul CONTRADICTS himself in writings such as Galations, quoted above.
I quote again. "Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek . . . immortality." Romans 2: 7.
Please read 2Pet1:1-11. Peter lists many traits essential to salvaiton---and one who LACKS these "fruits", is BLIND, SHORTSIGHED, having FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. Peter admonishes us to "make certain of His calling and election (by checking our FRUITS), for in THIS way the VERY GATES of Heaven will be provided (I believe it's clear that they will be provided in no other way!). But we cannot escape verse 1: "...to those who have received a FAITH of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, JESUS!"

A faith that is RECEIVED. Period. That's all. ...but it's REAL faith, that CAUSES all these listed fruits (and more!)---just as Jesus said, "you will KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS!
Before you start resorting to "context" to prove your point, you will first have to be academically honest enough to let the Bible say what it says.
Paul spent his life fighting those who taught that Gentile Christians had to obey the Law of Moses. In the "context" of this, the major issue of Paul's public debate, his statement told the Judaizers that salvation is not a result of the works they said Gentiles had to do to be saved---works of the law. Paul realized his statement would empower his opponents and enable them to accuse him of preaching that we may sin that grace may abound. For that reason, he stated what has always been sound doctrine. to wit, "God will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by . . . doing good seek . . . immortality. Romans 2: 6,7.
You confuse me---I thought you were advocating salvation by works. I'm not certain now if we agree or disagree.

We are saved by faith alone.

But NOT (mere) faith alone---only REAL faith alone---which means, the faith that RESULTS in good works. Faith which produces no good works, is not saved. Do we agree or disagree?

If a person BELIEVES, on his DEATHBED (caseinpoint the Thief on the Cross), that person WILL go to Heaven---this is the meaning of Romans 54:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifieds the ungodly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness." It continues, discussing Abraham---whose FAITH caused the works (including his obedience over Isaac). The one who does not work---either handicapped, imprisoned, or death-bed---that man WOULDA if he COULDA---but SAVING FAITH exists APART from works. Yet saving faith CAUSES good works INSEPARABLY! Am I making sense?

It seems so clear in my mind, I often wonder if my communication skills need polishing...

Do we agree or disagree?
 
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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Passages such as GALATIANS, forbid us to perceive Paul saying in Romans 2, "salvation is by WORKS". I summarized really the whole book of Galatians by quoting selected verses---presenting that salvation IS by FAITH, faith alone that WORKS THROUGH LOVE. The "faith that produces no works", is dead (unsaved) faith, not-really-faith-at-all. TRUE faith, PRODUCES works.

We are saved by faith alone.

But NOT (mere) faith alone---only REAL faith alone---which means, the faith that RESULTS in good works. Faith which produces no good works, is not saved. Do we agree or disagree?



The best way to improve communication skills is to learn to listen. Listening to the Word of God would be more fruitful than listening to me. Whether we disagree or not pales against your disagreement with God's Word. James said we are not saved by faith alone. I stand with him and Paul on how we are saved. Just because they indicate that salvation is not by faith alone does not mean they advocate salvation by works of the law of Moses. James and Paul are clear that what we do here in the flesh will form the basis for God's judgment at that great white throne which John saw.

Many will say to Jesus on that day that they believed and did works of preaching and even prophecying but Jesus will ask them to leave because the works which He sought were clothing the naked, etc.

You may choose to gloss over James' clear statement that we are not saved by faith alone. To do so, you can correctly point out as James has that good works are the symptom, the fruit of a faith that is alive and that dead faith, fruitless faith, is not faith at all. You still gloss over an important point:

Paul said we are free of the law of Moses but he never said we are free of the law of recompense, i.e., the law of good (and bad) works. Paul never made the statement you have made that we are saved by faith alone but James did make a statement which most wish he had not---we are not saved by faith alone.

I'm glad he made that statement and can stand with him on it. You need to practice standing with James. Say with me, "We are not saved by faith alone."

There, you see, that wasn't so hard and the world didn't collapse.
 
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Ben johnson

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You may choose to gloss over James' clear statement that we are not saved by faith alone.
I just read the whole book of James---and I did not find the words, "salvation is by faith plus works". James never presents "works" as PART of salvation---but rather, strives to convey "TRUE faith" verses "USELESS faith". "But prove yourselves DOERS of the Word, and not merely hearers which delude themselves. I will show you my faith BY my works. Faith, if it HAS no works, is useless!" There is nothing in the entire book that suggests that "salvation is by faith AND works"---rather, it says (as I stated above), "faith working WITH works"---faith came first, faith CAUSED the works, and as a result of the works faith was perfected.

"Blessed is he who perseveres under trial; for once he has passed, he will receive the crown of life. Consider it joy when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect (mature) and complete, lacking in nothing."


Where is James' "clear statement that we are not saved by faith alone"???
Paul said we are free of the law of Moses but he never said we are free of the law of recompense, i.e., the law of good (and bad) works. Paul never made the statement you have made that we are saved by faith alone
Paul plainly says "those that PRACTICE these things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God!" (1Cor6:9, Gal5:21) Paul says "by grace through faith have you been saved"---it is NOT by "faith alone" we are saved, we are saved by our faith in receiving God's grace--- grace + faith, not grace + faith + works; and Paul's NEXT verse in Eph2, says "not as a result of works"!

What am I misunderstanding? What am I "glossing over"?

"For by grace have you been saved through faith,
not as a result of works...


Salvation is NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS. Not "faith alone", but "grace through faith". But TRUE faith, that PRODUCES good works.

Please tell me the exact verse number(s) where James, or Paul, says "salvation by faith + works"?
 
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Blade

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Wow great stuff to read. Unless I missed it. What about the man on the cross with Jesus? He just said "remember me". He said he should die. I don't think his works did him any good. There are so many people out there that say they know Jesus. But the day will come when he will say "well if you new me then why did'nt you.....

Only God knows our heart. The man on cross new with all his heart Jesus was the SON OF GOD and believed it. Thats what got him there. People try to tape the name of Jesus (tape lol) on them and with out the real life changing experience of meeting the Son OF GOD will stand before him and say "hay look at all the stuff I did for you". I think it also like when the woman

NKJ Luke 21:1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury,2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites.3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all;4 "for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had."

Some really mean it some don't.
 
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Hi, P/N/B/ here:
About missing something? Do we not ALL miss some things? Who knows it all??
Anyway, let me just add my take in between your remarks below? Remember the words 'my take' ok?
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Originally posted by Blade
Wow great stuff to read. Unless I missed it. What about the man on the cross with Jesus? He just said "remember me". He said he should die. I don't think his works did him any good. There are so many people out there that say they know Jesus. But the day will come when he will say "well if you new me then why did'nt you.....
***
P/N/B/ here:
I [do] think that his words 'proved' his FAITH! Christ came to His own first, for a seven year period of time of 27-34AD. This man knew the Israelie doctrines. (The Faith or the SEED had been sown! Remember me when .., he testified)

He also was with Christ, it seems to me, while both had a death sentence given them. He most likely (as I see it) listened to all of the fake evidence in all three of their court trials against Christ & them, he came under conviction!

Now, about his words? What was the FAITH (or words) of the other thief? Do we not think that all it takes for the Born Again experience is for one to give up the stubborn will? Do you not think that this person would have now been baptised if he had been set free? See Acts 5:32 (do we know what 'Epistle of Christ' means in this K.J. verse?)
***

Only God knows our heart.
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P/N/B/ here: Yes, only God can read the heart! But [WE] can read mans 'epistle' of his Master, or the other 'm'aster, by his works of rebellion huh?
(See Gen. 4:7 K.J.) OPEN SIN! So this one thief has shown HIS FAITH by his WORKS OF CONFESSION, huh? 'Me' thinks!
***
The man on cross new with all his heart Jesus was the SON OF GOD and believed it. Thats what got him there. People try to tape the name of Jesus (tape lol) on them and with out the real life changing experience of meeting the Son OF GOD will stand before him and say "hay look at all the stuff I did for you". I think it also like when the woman

NKJ Luke 21:1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury,2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites.3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all;4 "for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had."

Some really mean it some don't.
****
P/N/B/ again:
Sounds like you are proving the case for the 'Born Again' thief to me?:)
****
 
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Jephunneh

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When I trusted Jesus Christ as my Saviour I was justified in God's sight.....(Romans 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

.............And I become accepted in the Beloved...(Ephesians 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

............The Holy Spirit lives with me now and forever....(John 14:16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

......And I have eternal life...(John 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

What happened to you when you trusted Jesus Christ as your Saviour?
 
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Jephunneh

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YOU CAN BE SAVED THIS VERY MINUTE!

It's simple to be saved ...


Know you're a sinner.

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" Romans 3:10
"... for there is no difference. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

That Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for your sins.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, ..." 1 Peter 2:24
"... Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5

And the best way you know how, simply trust Him, and Him alone as your personal Savior.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE SAVED?


Pray this prayer, and mean it with all your heart.
Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and unless you save me I am lost forever. I thank you for dying for me at Calvary. I come to you now, Lord the best way I know how, and ask you to save me. I now receive you as my Savior. In Jesus Christ Name, Amen.
 
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