Lewis's Trilemma

ephraimanesti

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To me there is a difference worth considering here, and I am worried that this may not in fact be a convincing book to some who has been deluded by the dogma of Atheism for so long. What are your thoughts on the matter?
MY DEAR BROTHER,

In reality, dear one, there are no "convincing books." Even the Bible, in and of itself, cannot "convince" someone of God's existence and Love, nor guide them into a relationship with Him.

All things Spiritual must be recognized for what they are--THE Truth,-- understood, and appropriated, Spirit-ually. This can only happen through calling upon the Holy Spirit for aid and support in opening the heart and mind to the Truth.

You are not on a quest--tongue in cheek or otherwise--after facts, opinions arguments, doctrines, or beliefs, and you are far from the urbane, suave, and sophisticated man of the world you present yourself--or your persona--as being, In reality--i.e., in God's eyes--you are a dirt encrusted errant child just like the rest of us. Until you seek God with--and accepting--this knowledge you are pretty much wasting both your time and the good graces of those here who, with loving intent, are trying to help you find the Light.

Crucifying your ego = resurrecting your heart = attaining the Ultimate. This is the supreme and all-encompassing lesson our Lord taught on the Cross today--a lesson no book can adequately convey to you. Learn it trustingly and experientially, understand it with your mind in your heart, and accomplish it with your Spirit-driven life, and you are Home free!

ASSUMING HOPEFULLY THAT YOU ARE REALLY AFTER HE WHO IS,
ephraim
 
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GreenMunchkin

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I wouldn't say it is exactly a re-hashing of Russell's teapot. We have to consider the purpose of the teapot, which is to merely determine who it is that must prove what. There is nothing absurd about that at all. Here we discuss whether a character of myth can adequately be equally assessed as a real-life person may be.
The reason for the teapot is irrelevant. I could just as easily have mentioned the Pink Unicorn thing, or the spaghetti monster or Han Solo. We could assign the Trilemma to Mickey Mouse until we're blue in the face. But while he's stuck on the pages of a book, or up on screen only, it's pointless. A make believe god is inconsequential; the Living God is the very opposite.
The gospel writers wrote only about their subject, and suffer from many of the fallacies of myth – contradictory sources and redaction, canonization, and so forth. This is the basis for my suspicion.
This is not a defensible position, Monty. You can retroactively muddy the water but, the simple truth is, the first copies of the earliest gospels and Acts were doing the rounds while first-hand witnesses were still around and when you consider context (which, contrary to what many atheists believe, isn't just having a quick gander at the before and after verses) there's no contradiction. The mistake is ours, not His.
May I also be blunt? There are those who would argue that cleverness itself is imaginary,
bonkers
and that though a person from West London may score 180 on one of our own I.Q. tests, that same person may move to Gambia and score pitiably on the B.I.Q. (the Bantu test). We look at everything through the lens of our own experience. When you look through your eyes at a tree, you see "God",
Not so. I see a tree. Ideally with some sort of blossom. English apple is perhaps the prettiest, but there's no such thing as a bad blossom
when a buddhist monk mediates upon a tree, he sees "Chi". Likewise, I too can walk into the woods or hills, cast aside all analysis and reason, and bask in the pure beauty of my surroundings. If I were to have treated my young children as science experiments I certainly would not have a very good relationship with them. I can certainly experience life, but when I look I see nature, and not "God", not magic. This is just as persuasive and powerful than your "God" – even more so, because it in not linked to some improvable "Chi".
I don't see God when I look at nature, but I see His fingerprints. This is something no atheist has ever been able to answer: why is it so beautiful? Sunsets, dew on grass, that apple blossom... I believe God made things this beautiful for our enjoyment, and our pleasure - He made it for us to feast on and enjoy. It's our playground, filled with toys and love. From the perspective of materialistic atheism, why is it so beautiful? Why would it need to be?
In fact, I save most of my logic and reasoning capabilities for dealing with the people who seek to dominate my intellectual and spiritual freedom with a manifestly dogmatic regime of shame and submission.
Bit of a stroke of luck, then, that Christianity would seek to do the polar opposite. In any case, that reminded me of one of the best things I ever read:

And Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?"

They replied, "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood revealed."

And Jesus replied, "What?"
So – lord, lunatic, or liar – I am still undecided.
If you can help to separate the myth from the reality, then please do.

The Gentleman Atheist
Lord. Allow me to turn this around a little: what would you need to hear or read in order to be convinced?
 
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Adoniram

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Yes, Adoniram, I teeter on the edge on Atheism's dull blade, and I may plunge out of one faith and into another. I am curious about your Mr. McDowell though. Contrary to what you say, my librarian states that he was not an atheist, but in fact McDowell claims to have been an agnostic. To me there is a difference worth considering here, and I am worried that this may not in fact be a convincing book to some who has been deluded by the dogma of Atheism for so long. What are your thoughts on the matter?

I will wait for your answer, lest we make an accident in our choice of literature.

The Gentleman Atheist
Your librarian may be right. After reading your post I did some searching and found some references to him as having been an agnostic, and some an atheist. Reading of his conversion experience in the aforementioned book sheds no light as he doesn't say either way specifically. But he does give an indication of his general attitude...so, if I may, I'll relate a little of what he has to say. (paraphrased unless in quotes)

As a teenager, he wanted to find happiness and meaning...the answer to three basic questions: "Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going?" He says he tried church, but "I guess I got into the wrong one, because I felt worse inside the church than I did outside," so he "chucked religion." Then he decided to give "education" a try. The university was less than satisfying as "enrolling there to find truth and meaning in life is virtually a lost cause." He says he tried to find fulfillment in prestige, running for and getting elected to various student offices, and in partying, going on weekend binges. "My goal was to find my identity and purpose in life. But everything I tried left me empty and without answers."

About this time, he says, he noticed a small group of people on campus, "and there was something different about them. They seemed to know where they were going in life. And they had a quality I deeply admire in people: conviction." He says he noticed that they "not only loved each other, they loved and cared for people outside their group. They didn't just talk about love; they got involved in loving others...something totally foreign to me, and I wanted it." A couple of weeks later he was sitting at a table in the student union talking to some of the group, and the talk got around to the topic of God. "I was pretty insecure about this subject, so I put on a big front to cover it up. I leaned back in my chair, acting as if I couldn't care less. 'Christianity, ha!' I blustered. 'That's for weaklings, not intellectuals.'" But he asked one of them "What changed your lives? Why are you so different from the other students and faculty?" Her reply was "two words I never expected to hear in an intelligent discussion on a university campus: 'Jesus Christ.'" To which he "snapped" "Jesus Christ? Don't give me that kind of garbage. I'm fed up with religion, the Bible, and the church." She shot back, "Mister, I didn't say 'religion'; I said Jesus Christ." He was taken aback by the girl's courage and conviction, and apologizing for his attitude said "But I'm sick and tired of religion and religious people. I don't want anything to do with it."

His new friends then challenged him, a pre-law student, to examine intellectually the claim that Jesus Christ is God's Son. He thought they were joking. "How could anything as flimsy as Christianity stand up to an intellectual examination." But after days of their insistence, he accepted their challenge, "just to refute them." He left the university and traveled the United States and Europe "to gather evidence to prove that Christianity is a sham." The more he researched, the more he struggled, "trying to refute the overwhelming evidence I was accumulating that Jesus Christ was God's Son."

But then, he began to realize that he was "being intellectually dishonest. My mind told me that the claims of Christ were indeed true, but my will was being pulled another direction. I had placed so much emphasis on finding the truth, but I wasn't willing to follow it once I saw it...becoming a Christian seemed so ego-shattering to me. I couldn't think of a faster way to ruin all my good times." But the inner conflict was driving him crazy and considering himself an open-minded person, he decided to put Christ's claims to the supreme test. He became a Christian and it changed his life. There is much more to his testimony, about exactly how his life changed, but this is long enough already.


So...after all that, did he start out atheist or agnostic? I don't know. And I don't know that it really matters that much. Like you, he was a person who had no place for religion, Christianity in particular, in his life. Much of his research resulted in his book "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." I urge you pick up a copy of it. Maybe it can help you satisfy your intellectual curiosity; I'm sure it would at least make you think.

As far as it's being convincing, I think ephraimanesti has a point. Which leads me to mention one more thing that McDowell says: "You may think it was the irrefutable intellectual evidence that brought me to Christ. No, the evidence was only God's way of getting His foot in the door of my life. What brought me to Christ was the realization that He loved me enough to die for me."
 
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Chesterton

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To begin with, if the gospel is merely myth – as I have been told that it is – then why can the messiah not take on all three of these roles? Zeus for example (who I am hoping that we all acknowledge as myth) was exactly all of these three things at once: liar, lunatic, and lord. There seems to be a parallel here, though I can not quite grasp it. What elucidation may you provide this lowly itinerant who wanders in the dark?

Sorry for the delay, but I was not allowed on the site since you posted this.

So, to begin with, who told you the gospel is a myth? It couldn't have been a historian, because all but a few fringe, crackpot historians with an agenda acknowledge that Jesus is a historical figure.
 
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In reality, dear one, there are no "convincing books." Even the Bible, in and of itself, cannot "convince" someone of God's existence and Love, nor guide them into a relationship with Him.

All things Spiritual must be recognized for what they are--THE Truth,-- understood, and appropriated, Spirit-ually. This can only happen through calling upon the Holy Spirit for aid and support in opening the heart and mind to the Truth.

You are not on a quest--tongue in cheek or otherwise--after facts, opinions arguments, doctrines, or beliefs, and you are far from the urbane, suave, and sophisticated man of the world you present yourself--or your persona--as being, In reality--i.e., in God's eyes--you are a dirt encrusted errant child just like the rest of us. Until you seek God with--and accepting--this knowledge you are pretty much wasting both your time and the good graces of those here who, with loving intent, are trying to help you find the Light.

Dear Ephraim,

What most confuses me about your chosen evangelical outlook is that your above argument can be made for any one of a number of religious outlooks. Why could we not replace the name of "yahweh" with the name of,"zoroaster," "woden", or "trump" and be as much a valid spiritual evangelical as you are here? You advocate for a sacrifice of the standard tools of reason and inquiry that have kept human beings alive for so long. You are one who would say, "Yes, child, keep your hand on the hot stove element. It will burn you only for a little longer, and then you shall have truth." Nonsense, dear sir! I argue, that truth does not become something worth having when you capitalize the letter "T". It is still an awfully burnt hand – indeed a "truth," but is it one worth pursuing?

This is the context in which I ask Mr. Adoniram about the "convincing-ness" of the book that he recommends. The tools that I will need to be convinced are not ones which are in essence an ignorance of every other tool available. This is merely "lunatic" and "liar". If I am to be convinced of the Galilean messiah's lord-ness, then it will be a gestalt understanding that leads me there. I am told that your god has a real handle on gestalt, so this shouldn't be much of a problem. The ball is in his pitch; and I am waiting here at the wicket. (Still three stumps too. It seems he is a very poor bowler.)

With utmost patience and an open mind.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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Miss Munchkin,

Thank you so much for helping me to investigate this. I am still left with some problems regarding this argument. If you would, please…

The reason for the teapot is irrelevant.
Is it not the case that the teapot is a story all about reason?

This is not a defensible position, Monty. You can retroactively muddy the water but, the simple truth is, the first copies of the earliest gospels and Acts were doing the rounds while first-hand witnesses were still around
That is a bit of a biased report, isn't it? I was not attempting to muddy any waters. I was using sources as independent as I could find in order to make the waters as clear as possible. Indeed, none of us can truly rely on any of these as profound sources as they are over two-thousand years old, and have been subject to any number of the problems that I mention above. Considering this, the argument that the Galilean messiah may never have existed as a man at all may be every bit as accurate as its converse. Who is to say?

In any case, we certainly can not rely on the words of the writers of the gospels. That would be like a representative from Mr. Chesterton's Quinness brewery saying, "Quinness is the best beer for the working man." The sceptical fellow stands up and says, "But why should we believe you?" and the Quinness fellow says, "Because it says so right here in this advertisement that we have created for the product." And Mr. Sceptic then responding, "Oh. Alright then."

why is it so beautiful? Sunsets, dew on grass, that apple blossom... I believe God made things this beautiful for our enjoyment, and our pleasure - He made it for us to feast on and enjoy. It's our playground, filled with toys and love. From the perspective of materialistic atheism, why is it so beautiful? Why would it need to be?
One could make several arguments. From a social perspective, humans may regard the trees as a reminder of times away from work and congested cities, and thus the trees become a psychological symbol of leisure and comfort. Ergo: beauty. Do you need more arguments?

And Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?" They replied, "You are the eschatological manifestation of the ground of our being, the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood revealed." And Jesus replied, "What"
Timothy Freke, is it not? An excellent Freke, he is.

Lord. Allow me to turn this around a little: what would you need to hear or read in order to be convinced?
I have covered this with Mr. Ephraim, just now. Please see the above post.


Errata: I have been told that it is "Guinness" and not "Quinness" as written above. My typist was also not familiar with the product. Our shared apologies.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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So...after all that, did he start out atheist or agnostic? I don't know. And I don't know that it really matters that much. Like you, he was a person who had no place for religion, Christianity in particular, in his life. Much of his research resulted in his book "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." I urge you pick up a copy of it. Maybe it can help you satisfy your intellectual curiosity; I'm sure it would at least make you think.

As far as it's being convincing, I think ephraimanesti has a point. Which leads me to mention one more thing that McDowell says: "You may think it was the irrefutable intellectual evidence that brought me to Christ. No, the evidence was only God's way of getting His foot in the door of my life. What brought me to Christ was the realization that He loved me enough to die for me."
Adoniram,

Thank you for your clarifications on this author. I agree that he certainly does sound like a bit of a second-rate philosophaster. I think that I will still give this book a good reading, but I will take into account this caveat that you offer.

Thanking you for your generous admonitions.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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Chesterton,

How good it is to hear from you.

Sorry for the delay, but I was not allowed on the site since you posted this.
I do hope that this was nothing of my doing. I know that there were some challenges to our having started this post, but I had no intent of harm for your reputation with our digital masters. Do let me know if there is anything I can do to repair your honour. I will certainly mention you in my weekly missive to Her Majesty.
So, to begin with, who told you the gospel is a myth? It couldn't have been a historian, because all but a few fringe, crackpot historians with an agenda acknowledge that Jesus is a historical figure.
The original supposition that I had stated was that the Galilean messiah himself was not a mythical man, but that his memory had most likely been corrupted by the maintenance of the church. A "mythologizing" of the man, if you will.

I am hoping that this provides clarification, and again, I do offer apologies for any unintended slight against your name or honour.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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Chesterton

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I do hope that this was nothing of my doing. I know that there were some challenges to our having started this post, but I had no intent of harm for your reputation with our digital masters. Do let me know if there is anything I can do to repair your honour. I will certainly mention you in my weekly missive to Her Majesty.

No, 'twas nobody's fault but mine. But you can tell the old girl "'ello" for me.

The original supposition that I had stated was that the Galilean messiah himself was not a mythical man, but that his memory had most likely been corrupted by the maintenance of the church. A "mythologizing" of the man, if you will.

Can you be a bit more specific? For example, which quotations of Jesus do you think are his, and which were thought up by someone else and attributed to Jesus? And when would this have happened?

In any case, we certainly can not rely on the words of the writers of the gospels. That would be like a representative from Mr. Chesterton's Quinness brewery saying, "Quinness is the best beer for the working man." The sceptical fellow stands up and says, "But why should we believe you?" and the Quinness fellow says, "Because it says so right here in this advertisement that we have created for the product." And Mr. Sceptic then responding, "Oh. Alright then."

But the beer representatives have a clear motive for saying their beer is best. Being Jews in 1st century Israel, under the rule of pagan Rome, it's hard to ascertain what motive the Apostles had for subjecting themselves to ostracism, persecution and death.
 
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Can you be a bit more specific? For example, which quotations of Jesus do you think are his, and which were thought up by someone else and attributed to Jesus? And when would this have happened?
Chesterton, I do not believe that anyone can determine which sayings were clearly those of the Galilean messiah, and which are counterfeits. There is a group of clerics in your country that have made the attempt using as many scholarly methods that they have on hand. They call themselves "The Jesus Seminar," but that is about all that I know of them. To me, the adaption of preceding mytheme, such as the dying and rising god (cf. Osiris, Persephone, &tc.) is convincing enough.

But the beer representatives have a clear motive for saying their beer is best. Being Jews in 1st century Israel, under the rule of pagan Rome, it's hard to ascertain what motive the Apostles had for subjecting themselves to ostracism, persecution and death.
Yes, and you will remember that this is chiefly why I am here on this site to understand. Why did these men subject themselves to certain death in order to proselytize among unconverted peoples? Why do people strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up while shouting that their, "god is great!" Maybe we can work together (christians and non-christians) to find these things out.

In any case, this thread was about Lewis. Does the myth argument seem valid to you?

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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The "trilemma" is a novel concept, yet is it not easily dismissed as the Lord lived 2000 years ago? The agreed datum for this argument should be that he actually existed as portrayed in the NT, yet I believe that the Atheist might hold that Jesus' followers and others after them embellished upon or concocted the NT scriptures. That we can't agree that what is written of him actually is of him, further discussion in this reasoning might be futile.

To the Christian the Gospel should be spiritually self-evident and is therefore accepted as truth without doubt. The Atheist finds the Christian confusing, and sometimes abhorrent, since within his accepted methods of proving the Gospel simply cannot be shown truthful without doubt. This causes the Atheist to perceive the Christian as either a fool, or logically, a liar, and his message is an affront. (The trilemma again!)

In school, I took much math. Never did I pay mind to the authors of my text books or their origins. The material worked within my specific influence and became self-evident truth. In this way the Gospel is manifest as truth to the Christian. He spiritually perceives the truth of the Gospel occurrences in how they reconcile the creature with the creator. The message is relevant and works within his unique influence of life. The source of this truth emanates from a written word, and therefore it also becomes reliable for him.

I respect the Atheist for striving against religious musings which pose as undeniable fact, since so many false religions and fairy tales exist. There are many fabricated faces of God among us.

Yet even the Atheist is falsely named, since I perceive these to be of a class that refuse to accept anything that cannot be proven (by certain methods). The Atheist mind is defended like a fortress, yet by its nature, must be willing to entertain and accept any idea. It is his nature. Therefore the name this type has chosen for himself is most unfortunate, and demeaning to the true nature of his perception, as God may or may not be, even by fleshly reasoning.

Were the "Atheist" to approach the Gospel using different means to perceive whether truth abides within, might he come to a different conclusion? I wonder if it is incorrect to judge a spiritual truth by the gauges of the flesh.

Evolution is the organism changing to meet the challenges and realities of his environment. Consciousness of the spiritual transcends all Homo Sapien culture. The Spiritual is part of his environment, and in his most highly developed mind, he has "become" to perceive it and he attempts to interact with it. As our primate ancestor reached for a real tool, the first man reached for the real heavens. Did That which is in the heavens reach out to him as well?
 
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Chesterton

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Chesterton, I do not believe that anyone can determine which sayings were clearly those of the Galilean messiah, and which are counterfeits.

Then what leads you to believe some are counterfeits?

There is a group of clerics in your country that have made the attempt using as many scholarly methods that they have on hand. They call themselves "The Jesus Seminar," but that is about all that I know of them.

I almost mentioned the Jesus Seminar in my last post. I'd encourage you to look into it more. Some of their "scholarly" methods included tossing dice to arrive at their conclusions. :D The Seminar has been largely dismissed (with some snickering) by real scholars as overtly biased, and quite unscholarly.

To me, the adaption of preceding mytheme, such as the dying and rising god (cf. Osiris, Persephone, &tc.) is convincing enough.

We could just as likely, or more likely, take the preceding theme as convincing evidence that Jesus was God.

Yes, and you will remember that this is chiefly why I am here on this site to understand. Why did these men subject themselves to certain death in order to proselytize among unconverted peoples? Why do people strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up while shouting that their, "god is great!" Maybe we can work together (christians and non-christians) to find these things out.

Japanese kamikazes, and Muslim terrorists, were/are, by their own words, at war with those they seek to kill. None of the ancient Christian martyrs sought to kill others, or to be killed themselves. (The original meaning of the word "martyr" was "a witness", so in that sense, no Muslim is ever a martyr, they are merely soldiers.)

In any case, this thread was about Lewis. Does the myth argument seem valid to you?

Well, no it doesn't. I'm willing to listen, but you're not helping much. How does a man, who walked around on two legs as you and I, get "mythologized" into being Creator God, especially amongst the Jews of all people? It seems an extremely difficult task on the face of it. That's why I asked for specifics. For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers". Even if I don't live by it, I recognize it's a beautiful idea, but in the same sermon, Jesus said he was the Lord who would judge men's souls at their death, which (unless you're a very, very good person) really isn't a beautiful idea. So I'd like to know, did Jesus say the one and not the other, or both, or what exactly?
 
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ephraimanesti

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Dear Ephraim,

What most confuses me about your chosen evangelical outlook is that your above argument can be made for any one of a number of religious outlooks. Why could we not replace the name of "yahweh" with the name of,"zoroaster," "woden", or "trump" and be as much a valid spiritual evangelical as you are here?
MY DEAR BROTHER,

Well, actually i did not "choose" my "evangelical outlook"--if that is how you want to label it--but it was forced upon me by the preponderance of the evidence witnessing on its behalf. Believe me, i spent many many decades searching for alternatives to accepting the Bible for what it is--God's written word--and acting accordingly--i.e., surrendering to its Truth and shaping my life accordingly. In this regard, i relate very strongly to the experience of the writer of "THE HOUND OF HEAVEN."

The Hound of Heaven by Francis Thompson

THANK GOD FOR THE PRAYERS OF MOMS AND WIVES--God is definitely the Ultimate Stalker!

You advocate for a sacrifice of the standard tools of reason and inquiry that have kept human beings alive for so long. You are one who would say, "Yes, child, keep your hand on the hot stove element. It will burn you only for a little longer, and then you shall have truth." Nonsense, dear sir! I argue, that truth does not become something worth having when you capitalize the letter "T". It is still an awfully burnt hand – indeed a "truth," but is it one worth pursuing?
Au contraire, mon frere, God's purpose in creating us hard-wired with the "standard tools of reason and inquiry" is that we might use them to seek Him out, discover His existence, and surrender to His Love.

What you are referring to is a perversion and distortion of this wonderful innate gift whereby the rebellious human ego directs "reason and inquiry" away from God and into the darkness of "the (so-called) 'wisdom' of this world."

I Corinthians has much to say about this deadly mental modality in which you appear to have buried yourself. A few examples should suffice to illustrate what is being presented to you for (unfortunately) your probable cavalier dismissal (i understand that it is necessary for you to do this, but it is a terrible shame nonetheless!):

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.' Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." (I Cor 1:18-21)

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (I Cor 2:14)

"If any one of you thinks he is 'wise' by the standards of this age, he should become a 'fool' so that he may indeed become wise. For the 'wisdom' of this world is foolishness in God's sight." (I Cor 3:18-19a)

"Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God." (I Cor 8:1b-3)

The way to escape from this deadly trap is spelled out quite simply in Romans (12:2): "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--His good, pleasing and perfect will."

This is the context in which I ask Mr. Adoniram about the "convincing-ness" of the book that he recommends. The tools that I will need to be convinced are not ones which are in essence an ignorance of every other tool available. This is merely "lunatic" and "liar". If I am to be convinced of the Galilean messiah's lord-ness, then it will be a gestalt understanding that leads me there.
This is woefully incorrect! The only thing that can lead you to a conviction that God is alive and well and that Jesus is His only-begotten Son and that TRUE Christianity is the path which He has laid out to lead His wandering children home is a large dose of humility to counteract your "gentlemanly" disguise and a willingness to fall on your face before your Lord, God, and Creator in reverence, awe, and repentance. Hard job that, but well worth the struggle necessary to accomplish it.

I am told that your god has a real handle on gestalt, so this shouldn't be much of a problem. The ball is in his pitch; and I am waiting here at the wicket. (Still three stumps too. It seems he is a very poor bowler.)
Our Lord is actually a most adept and wonderfully compassionate bowler--his delivery is smooth, slow, exactly on the mark, and designed to be easily hit, even by children. Unfortunately, you are indeed standing at the wicket but have thrown away your bat and thus wontedly made yourself impotently unable--actually, willfully unwilling--to respond. Much as He desperately wants you to score, it is kind of hard for you to do so with no paddle and eyes tightly closed!

Our Creator God's "bowling skills" through the ages, and the refusal of some to respond appropriately, is described thusly,

"What may be known about God has been made clear to all men, because God has made it plain to them. Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be 'wise', they became fools." (Romans 1:19-22)

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
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Greetings, Joshua.

I suspect that your name is somewhat of a nom de plume: Jesus, the masqued reveller! I must say this poetry provides me with something to ponder. Please expound, if you can find the time. I am interested in the origins of this poetry.

Your argument, on its face, appears quite thought through, and well-considered; however, there are several key points which ultimately destroy itself. Please consider, if you will:

The "trilemma" is a novel concept, yet is it not easily dismissed as the Lord lived 2000 years ago? The agreed datum for this argument should be that he actually existed as portrayed in the NT, yet I believe that the Atheist might hold that Jesus' followers and others after them embellished upon or concocted the NT scriptures. That we can't agree that what is written of him actually is of him, further discussion in this reasoning might be futile.
Perhaps the datum should be only the red script. If we use those words, and exclude all other portrayals of the Galilean messiah – found within or without the NT – we should have enough matter to divine his nature, be it lunatic or liar. This is assuming that his words have been preserved intact, and not transmuted by some zealous monk deep in the bliss of his vaticinations.
Yet even the Atheist is falsely named, since I perceive these to be of a class that refuse to accept anything that cannot be proven (by certain methods). The Atheist mind is defended like a fortress, yet by its nature, must be willing to entertain and accept any idea. It is his nature. Therefore the name this type has chosen for himself is most unfortunate, and demeaning to the true nature of his perception, as God may or may not be, even by fleshly reasoning.
I offer you this wisdom for your future argumentation. You are unfairly regarding atheism as a beginning point, when for most it is an end point. Ergo, the atheist's "nature" can not derive "from" atheism.
Were the "Atheist" to approach the Gospel using different means to perceive whether truth abides within, might he come to a different conclusion? I wonder if it is incorrect to judge a spiritual truth by the gauges of the flesh.
I am convinced at least that we may examine the psychology of a literary character without means of employing esoteric magicks. To say that society may not be able to derive a judgement from the words and actions of individuals from history is a horrible prevarication which can not be excused. Here we have a man. Was he a lunatic? Was he a liar? Was he a "lord"? We have all of the tool that we need right here before us. Let us look at them, and determine accordingly.

Let us continue this conversation!

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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Then what leads you to believe some are counterfeits?
I did not say that they were. I said that we could not determine which were, and which were not.

We could just as likely, or more likely, take the preceding theme as convincing evidence that Jesus was God.
Oh, that is very interesting! Please expound. I would like to hear more.

Well, no it doesn't. I'm willing to listen, but you're not helping much. How does a man, who walked around on two legs as you and I, get "mythologized" into being Creator God, especially amongst the Jews of all people?
Well, that is the problem, you see? It is said that he did not just walk on two legs, but that he flew on up to "heaven." It sounds an awful lot like myth and magic, do you not think?

It seems an extremely difficult task on the face of it. That's why I asked for specifics. For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers". Even if I don't live by it, I recognize it's a beautiful idea, but in the same sermon, Jesus said he was the Lord who would judge men's souls at their death, which (unless you're a very, very good person) really isn't a beautiful idea. So I'd like to know, did Jesus say the one and not the other, or both, or what exactly?
I would also like to respond to this. Can you please provide chapter, verse and version citations for these quotes?

Very much enjoying this conversation.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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This is woefully incorrect! The only thing that can lead you to a conviction that God is alive and well and that Jesus is His only-begotten Son and that TRUE Christianity is the path which He has laid out to lead His wandering children home is a large dose of humility to counteract your "gentlemanly" disguise and a willingness to fall on your face before your Lord, God, and Creator in reverence, awe, and repentance. Hard job that, but well worth the struggle necessary to accomplish it.
Pap and piffle! Your whole post is an arrogant paean to yourself. I encourage you to jettison this obsessive attachment and stick to the argument at hand.

Thank you.

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ephraimanesti

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Pap and piffle!
MY DEAR BROTHER,

How quaint!

Why does the Truth drive you to use such hardcore expletives?

What did my post have to do with me? i am sure that you are aware, and God obviously knows, that i am definately not god! Be careful with those ad hominems!

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
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Why does the Truth drive you to use such hardcore expletives? What did my post have to do with me? i am sure that you are aware, and God obviously knows, that i am definately not god! Be careful with those ad hominems!
Honestly, Ephraim, I do not know why I even try to talk to you.

In any case, I thank you for your input. Have a nice day.

The Gentleman Atheist
 
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ephraimanesti

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Honestly, Ephraim, I do not know why I even try to talk to you.
MY DEAR BROTHER,

Well, obviously i can't know of a certainty the correct answer to your brooding and tormented question, but i can perhaps hazard an informed guess, to whit:

The vast majority of atheists with whom i have had interactions do not believe in the concept of "free will," perhaps believing that, as the "evolved animals" they consider themselves to be, they have no power to make real choices but are bound by nature to follow their animal instincts. (This is one of the major drawbacks to falsely seeing oneself as being evolved as opposed to accepting the reality of being created in God's Image and Likeness.)

In any event, my best guess is that the answer to your question is that you are unable to choose to do otherwise because you don't believe that you have the power to do so.

i am, in a sense, secretly happy with this situation because i do enjoy our occasional chats--even though one could wish that you did feel empowered to choose a different path than the one you have instinctually taken.

In any case, I thank you for your input. Have a nice day.
And to your Spirit as well!

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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I did not say that they were. I said that we could not determine which were, and which were not.

Well but you are saying that by implication.

Oh, that is very interesting! Please expound. I would like to hear more.

He fulfilled an idea that some people had already had.

Well, that is the problem, you see? It is said that he did not just walk on two legs, but that he flew on up to "heaven." It sounds an awful lot like myth and magic, do you not think?

So you're saying the supernatural acts didn't happen; that they were lies?

I would also like to respond to this. Can you please provide chapter, verse and version citations for these quotes?

The Sermon on the Mount is in Matthew chapters 5-7. The part I think you're asking about is in chapter 7 verses 21-23:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Very much enjoying this conversation.

Me too.
 
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