Ran77

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Nope - Correct.


First of all, God could have created the other set of 23 chromosomes ex novo.

Which would mean that they came from Him. Which is what has been indicated. You just stated that half the genetic code came from God AND supplied a method that didn't involve the normal procreative method. Thanks.

:thumbsup:


Secondly, the Bible does not teach Jesus Christ is half God and half man; that's paganism. Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Logos, not some Hercules or Dionysus rip-off.

I didn't say anything about half God. You did. Why twist my words?


:o
 
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Rescued One

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Are you indicating that in non-LDS doctrine that Mary is not the daughter of God? Or that Jesus is not the literal Son of the Father? Because otherwise the rest of Christianity must fall under the same condemntation that you are attempting here.


:)

God was/is not a physical father of Christ. God did not put his seed in Mary. Seed represents sperm. Mary is not a spirit daughter of God in the way that LDS teach. She was a created being as the rest of us are. We are adopted into God's family by His grace through the faith that He gives us.
 
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Brennin

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And minus that vital Y chromosome too. :eek:

If God (the true God, that is) can will the universe into existence, then He can will a Y chromosome into existence.

Incidentally, the LDS cannot explain how their "heavenly parents," who possess "bodies of flesh and bone," nevertheless produce spirit children.
 
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Ran77

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God was/is not a physical father of Christ. God did not put his seed in Mary. Seed represents sperm. Mary is not a spirit daughter of God in the way that LDS teach. She was a created being as the rest of us are. We are adopted into God's family by His grace through the faith that He gives us.

Will it help if I seperate the questions for you?


Is Mary one of God's children?

Is God the literal father of Jesus?


:)
 
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Zechariah

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Doh. I forgot about that. Good catch.

(Hey, Happy Easter buddy.)

:)

And Happy Easter to you bud!

Received some great inspiration from conference today, and very much looking forward to tomorrow's sessions. I've always especially enjoyed conference and Easter falling on the same day.

:angel:
 
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Brennin

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Nope - Correct.

Keep telling yourself that.




Which would mean that they came from Him. Which is what has been indicated. You just stated that half the genetic code came from God AND supplied a method that didn't involve the normal procreative method. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

That doesn't help your case, so sorry.



I didn't say anything about half God. You did. Why twist my words?


:o

I know what Mormons teach. They teach that "Jesus" received 23 "divine chromosomes" from "God" and 23 human or mortal chromosomes from Mary, which makes him half-god and half-man.
 
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Ran77

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Keep telling yourself that.

Ditto.


That doesn't help your case, so sorry.

I find this to be an extremely weak argument.


I know what Mormons teach. They teach that "Jesus" received 23 "divine chromosomes" from "God" and 23 human or mortal chromosomes from Mary, which makes him half-god and half-man.

Then it appears you don't know what LDS teach, because we teach that Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God. This other bit is just something you introduced.


:o
 
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Ran77

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I already answered you.

No you didn't.

"God was/is not a physical father of Christ."

You have not indicated whether, or not, Mary is a child of God. You have just claimed that God is not the physical father of Christ. It isn't even clear if this is meant that God is not the literal father of Christ.


"Mary is not a spirit daughter of God in the way that LDS teach. She was a created being as the rest of us are."

Still doesn't answer it. Do you mean that as creations of God, we are not His children? What do you then think God being our creator means? Isn't that what parents are? Don't our parents on Earth create us? I mean, if God had nothing to do with our creation, then He isn't OUR creator, our parents are. Is that what you are indicating?


:confused:
 
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Brennin

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Then it appears you don't know what LDS teach, because we teach that Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God. This other bit is just something you introduced.


:o

Your inability or unwillingness to accept what the erroneous anthropomorphism of your religion entails is not my concern. Your Jesus cannot be FULLY man and FULLY God because he only gets half of his chromosomes from "God" and half from Mary. That makes your Jesus half-god and half-man.
 
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Zechariah

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No you didn't.

"God was/is not a physical father of Christ."

You have not indicated whether, or not, Mary is a child of God. You have just claimed that God is not the physical father of Christ. It isn't even clear if this is meant that God is not the literal father of Christ.

Now this is something I find most curious of all, whenever I encounter it, and I always wonder why those who say it, claim to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, when they actually don't believe it's true.

:scratch:
 
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Brennin

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Now this is something I find most curious of all, whenever I encounter it, and I always wonder why those who say it, claim to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, when they actually don't believe it's true.

:scratch:

It is only a wonder to those who do not understand what the title meant in the context of ancient Judaism.
 
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Ran77

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Now this is something I find most curious of all, whenever I encounter it, and I always wonder why those who say it, claim to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, when they actually don't believe it's true.

:scratch:

Wow :o I hadn't thought of that. Why indeed. It seems like the whole father, son, thing is irrelevant.

What I also find interesting is that our critics can provide plenty of instances of "God can do this . . ." but are not able to apply that same statement to this one, single action. God apparently can do anything with His divine powers, except be the literal father of Jesus without resorting to intercourse. Nor does it appear to be possible for God to have the resulting child be FULLY God and FULLY human.

Then again, if God is not the father of Jesus, I guess its a moot point.


:)
 
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Zechariah

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Wow :o I hadn't thought of that. Why indeed. It seems like the whole father, son, thing is irrelevant.

What I also find interesting is that our critics can provide plenty of instances of "God can do this . . ." but are not able to apply that same statement to this one, single action. God apparently can do anything with His divine powers, except be the literal father of Jesus without resorting to intercourse.

Then again, if God is not the father of Jesus, I guess its a moot point.


:)

Pretty sad when you think on it.

If you can't believe what the scriptures say, then what is there to believe?



Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

(but he isn't really the Son of God)

God is the Father of Jesus Christ.

(but he isn't really the Father of Jesus Christ)

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God too.

(but he wasn't really begotten)

Mary conceived.

(but she didn't really conceive)

God is the Father of our spirits.

(but he isn't really the Father of our spirits)

We are His offspring.

(but we aren't really His offspring)

We were made in the image and likeness of God.

(but we weren't really made in the image and likeness of God)

The resurrected Christ has a body of flesh and bone.

(but he doesn't really have a body of flesh and bone)

Jesus Christ is in the express image of his Father's person.

(but he isn't really in the express image of his Father's person)

We can be joint heirs with Christ.

(but we can't really be joint heirs with Christ)



And on, and on, it goes.​


:sigh:
 
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Rescued One

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Pretty sad when you think on it.

If you can't believe what the scriptures say, then what is there to believe?



Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

(but he isn't really the Son of God)

God is the Father of Jesus Christ.

(but he isn't really the Father of Jesus Christ)

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God too.

(but he wasn't really begotten)

Mary conceived.

(but she didn't really conceive)

God is the Father of our spirits.

(but he isn't really the Father of our spirits)

We are His offspring.

(but we aren't really His offspring)

We were made in the image and likeness of God.

(but we weren't really made in the image and likeness of God)

The resurrected Christ has a body of flesh and bone.

(but he doesn't really have a body of flesh and bone)

Jesus Christ is in the express image of his Father's person.

(but he isn't really in the express image of his Father's person)

We can be joint heirs with Christ.

(but we can't really be joint heirs with Christ)



And on, and on, it goes.​


:sigh:

Need a little help? ;)

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
Joseph Smith, Teachings, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476

"And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.269

From the beginning of history the great masses of men have worshiped false gods.Those who believe the creeds of Christendom profess to worship an incomprehensible, unknowable, immaterial essence that fills that fills the immensity of space and is everywhere and nowhere in particular present.
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.270


"This view of God as an incorporeal, immaterial, bodiless, partless, passionless being is now and has been from the days of the great apostasy from God and Christ, in the second and third centuries, the doctrine of Deity generally accepted by apostate Christendom. The simple doctrine of the Christian Godhead, set forth in the New Testament is corrupted by the meaningless jargon of these creeds, and their explanations; and the learned who profess a belief in them are wandering in the darkness of the mysticisms of the old pagan philosophies."
History of the Church, 1:LXXXVI

"What is the church of the devil in our day, and where is the seat of her power? ...It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel ...It is communism; it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts"
Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p. 54-55

"The only real superiority of the apostate sects of Christendom over their more openly pagan counterparts is the fact that the Christian sects (though rejecting the doctrines, ordinances, and powers of the gospel) have nonetheless preserved many of the ethical teachings of Christ and the apostles"
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 240

Our beliefs and actions may differ from those of others, but we, as good Christians, do not criticize other religions or their adherents.
Joseph B. Wirthlin, “Christians in Belief and Action,” Ensign, Nov. 1996, p. 70

If that becomes the doctrine of the Church we will be worse than the Catholics who believe that you can pray a man out of purgatory. But they charge for it and we don't, so we would be more foolish than they.
Melvin J. Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory (Salt Lake City: Joseph Lyon & Associates, 1975), p. 26
 
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Moodshadow

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Is there a reason that you are making this personal? Why not just address the topic?

There is and was a perfectly good reason, yes, and that was that I was responding to a direct accusation from one of your cohorts. Now we can all get back to addressing the topic, and thank you for your interest.
 
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Dominic Korozya

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Are you asking if non-LDS baptisms are considered valid? No, they are not. And the mode of baptism as well as the age of the individual are important to LDS. When they baptize, the person must be completely immersed in the water or they will have to do it over again.

Wow, I didn't know they would repeat it just because the person was not fully immersed! But I have seen the baptism rooms in the church and it is like a fully tiled mini swimming pool.


Well, except that I was in fact baptized LDS - and was active for forty years, after which I excommunicated myself after learning through independent research that Joseph Smith was not what he claimed to be. Since my apostasy (a favorite Mormon word) I've been baptized into the Methodist church - something Joseph Smith sought, incidentally, after he announced the vision wherein he claimed that God told him all earthy creeds were an abomination and he must join none of them. My Methodist baptism is 100% worthless according to Mormonism because it was not done by LDS priesthood, so if I should ever decide to renounce Methodism and seek readmission into the LDS church, I would have to be re-baptized by LDS priesthood. (Theoretically speaking, of course. The chance of that actually happening is zero.)

I love methodism. It is one of the protestant churches that make most sense to me.

But this idea that the LDS church hold on baptism is just very strange, even John the baptist performed baptism with no authority. He baptised those who came in good faith, those who wanted to follow their heart and mind to do what was good in the eyes of the Lord. If you and I were alone on an Island somewhere, I believe that we could baptised someone and it still be legitimate in the eyes of God. No authority required.

They are unlikely to tell you about this until you have shown your obedience to the LDS church.

Specifically, what are your questions? Can you direct me to a post?

Don't worry about that, let's just kick off from here.

Brigham Young explained, “After men have got their exaltations and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.275.)

“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “. . . the Matter of Marriage” [address delivered at University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976], 2)

We cannot become Gods.... this is definately a fantasy of the human ego.

Most LDS know about it.

1 God Was Once a Man
As We Are Now
When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, “and you cannot wish to be greater”(Eliza R. Snow, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, pp. 9-10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: “The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun shone at noon-day, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.” Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: “As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: “Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you” (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in “Devotion to Divine Inspiration,” Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 651-56).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth” (Teachings, pp. 345-46; italics in original).
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 152)

Hmm.
 
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Ran77

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There is and was a perfectly good reason, yes, and that was that I was responding to a direct accusation from one of your cohorts. Now we can all get back to addressing the topic, and thank you for your interest.

I'm sure that I have heard from you that there is never a good reason to make things personal during these discussions. And if by chance I am mistaken about your stance on this matter, please consider this a request to leave the personal bits out of this.


:)
 
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