Zechariah

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Okay! Now, that makes A LOT more sense than what I gathered from the quotes that I presented you with. Turns out we share the same beliefs (on this topic, anyway). It's all in the interpretation.

Yes it is.

Thank you for the clarification, sir. :thumbsup:

You are most welcome, and thank you for opening up to listening and hearing. I very much appreciate it. :)

[The part of the above quote that I put in bold is basically all that anyone can know for sure, concerning the subject ;)]

And just so you know, our doctrine on the virgin birth comes from both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And yes, unless or until God gives man additional revelation to explain in more detail, what is contained in scripture is the extent of the information we have on the matter.

Would you agree that we are ready to move on?

If you think we now sufficiently understand each other on the above subject, then yes, we can move on.
 
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Ran77

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When Heavenly Father had intercourse with one of his offspring, the viginity remained intact. That is how it was explained to me.

I've never heard that explanation. It sure isn't documented as our doctrine on the matter. This is another case of presenting something that LDS don't actually believe.


:)
 
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Ran77

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If you are speaking of artificial insemination, that is not natural.

It is an example of how a pregnancy can occur without the need for intercourse. I have seen no one suggest that it was natural or the method the Father used. The means is not known. But non-LDS struggle with the notion that God is powerful enough to accomplish this miracle.


If you are speaking of literal seed, what is the Father's seed doing inside his daughter?

Are you indicating that in non-LDS doctrine that Mary is not the daughter of God? Or that Jesus is not the literal Son of the Father? Because otherwise the rest of Christianity must fall under the same condemntation that you are attempting here.


:)
 
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Ran77

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Oh, sure. Unless a person is baptized by one having the LDS priesthood, his/her baptism is considered to be of no value because it was not done by proper priesthood authority.

What is the excuse the rest of Christianity uses for considering LDS baptism to be of no value? If it isn't a matter of priesthood authority, what lesser reason is there?




This is true regardless of previous religious affiliation. If you join the LDS church, you absolutely must be baptized by Mormon priesthood - no exceptions. And baptisms in any and all other churches are considered insufficient/worthless for the same reason: no proper priesthood authority - no exceptions.

And what about the Methodists? Or Catholics? Do they accept the baptism of all other denominations? Why criticize the LDS stance on this when the denominations I have heard speak on this indicate they will not accept baptisms by the LDS, probably other faiths too. This is quite the double standard.


:)
 
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Brennin

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Somehow I suspect your source did not bother to mention that Bruce R. McConkie also said that teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.

Please post the relevant quotation.

For those interested in the blasphemous teachings of past Mormon "prophets" and "apostles," please see the list of relevant statements compiled by Mormonism Research Ministry.

http://www.mrm.org/virgin-birth

An Excerpt:

In a "classic sermon delivered by President Joseph F. Smith at the Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914, as recorded in the Box Elder News of January 28, 1915" (Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia, p. 398), he taught:
"You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers you all know that don't you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it? ...
"Now, little boys and girls, when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father---the Father of our spirits---and he was born of his mother Mary.
"The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death; but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the God of Heaven. Therefore Jesus, as he declared, received the power of life from his Father and was never subject unto death but had life in himself as his father had life in himself. Because of this power he overcame death and the grave and became master of the resurrection and the means of salvation to us all.
"Shall we as Latter-day Saints deny the truth and then claim that God made man in his likeness in the beginning? Shall we come under the impression that God possesses the power of creation, and yet did not literally create? He is not without his companion any more than I am without my companion, the mother of my children...
"Now, by and by you will be able to understand this far better than you can today. Some of us grandparents find it difficult to conceive the truth we want to think of something marvelous. We want to try to make it appear that God does not do things in the right way, or that he has another way of doing things than what we know, we must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ, and He was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of His Father...​
"Now, my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you talk to your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father is literally the father of Jesus Christ.
"Mary was married to Joseph for time. No man could take her for eternity because she belonged to the Father of her divine Son. In the revelation that has come thru Joseph Smith, we learn that it is the eternal purpose of God that man and woman should be joined together by the power of God here on earth for time and eternity."
An official LDS Church manual (Family Home Evening Manual, 1972) quoted from Joseph F. Smith under the heading "A Modern Prophet's Answer" and included this picture on page 126:

The same manual carried the above illustration showing the figure of a man, woman, and child. On page 126 LDS parents are told they should use this to explain to their children “how Jesus was the only begotten Son of God.” Daddy plus Mommy equals you; Heavenly Father plus Mary equals Jesus.

Joseph F. Smith
"Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother." (Box Elder Stake conference of December 20, 1914)
Ezra Taft Benson
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4).
 
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skylark1

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What is the excuse the rest of Christianity uses for considering LDS baptism to be of no value? If it isn't a matter of priesthood authority, what lesser reason is there?

And what about the Methodists? Or Catholics? Do they accept the baptism of all other denominations? Why criticize the LDS stance on this when the denominations I have heard speak on this indicate they will not accept baptisms by the LDS, probably other faiths too. This is quite the double standard.

The Catholic Church usually accepts baptisms from another Christian Church. The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
V. WHO CAN BAPTIZE?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a nonbaptized person, with the required intention, can baptizeNT , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58​


However, they do not consider LDS baptisms to be valid. The article at the following link is from the Newspaper of the Holy See (Pope), and explains in detail the Cathlolic view on LDS baptism and why they do not consider it to be valid.

THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER
 
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Brennin

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Premise 1

John 4:24

24God is spirit (pneuma), and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

Premise 2

Luke 24:39

39See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit (pneuma) does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

Conclusion

God does not have a body of "flesh and bones" and Mormonism is shown to be false (again).

Happy Pascha!
 
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Ran77

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I love this illustration.



I notice that this is true regardless of the method used to obtain pregnancy. Intercourse, artificial insemination, or methods as of yet not discovered all will be accurate to this illustration. What it proves is that the child has the genetic code of both parents.

In the case of Jesus, how could He be fully God and fully Man if he did not have the genetic code of both within Him? If all the genetic material belongs to Mary, then He is simply mortal. If all the genetic material belongs to God, then He is simply divine.


:)
 
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Brennin

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I love this illustration.



I notice that this is true regardless of the method used to obtain pregnancy. Intercourse, artificial insemination, or methods as of yet not discovered all will be accurate to this illustration. What it proves is that the child has the genetic code of both parents.

In the case of Jesus, how could He be fully God and fully Man if he did not have the genetic code of both within Him? If all the genetic material belongs to Mary, then He is simply mortal. If all the genetic material belongs to God, then He is simply divine.


:)

God does not have a body or a genetic code, as Holy Scripture and Reason make clear.
 
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Brennin

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Some of the LDS posters here are open and courteous; others, not so much. (But that's true of the general population, as well, isn't it?) Trouble is, even the LDS posters often have differing ideas of what is and isn't officially taught as LDS doctrine. It changes, you see, and apparently it's not always easy to keep up with. For example, some things that used to be stressed in Mormonism are no longer...emphasized (I believe that was the word Gordon B. Hinckley used), even though officially they remain doctrine. It's no wonder it causes them confusion.

You are, of course, correct. Hinckley's "that's more of a couplet than anything else" is a fine example.

On whether the LDS Church holds that, "God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain, ‘I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it ... I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don’t know a lot about it, and I don’t think others know a lot about it,’" Hinckley told Time.

Mormon LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley Dissembles In TIME

I remember listening to a seventy (or whatever he was) Hinckley sent to do damage control claim he had been misquoted and that the press was harassing him. I had intended to speak to that seventy afterward and let him know I thought he was a liar but my friend was ready to go and he was driving.
 
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Zechariah

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I love this illustration.



I notice that this is true regardless of the method used to obtain pregnancy. Intercourse, artificial insemination, or methods as of yet not discovered all will be accurate to this illustration. What it proves is that the child has the genetic code of both parents.

In the case of Jesus, how could He be fully God and fully Man if he did not have the genetic code of both within Him? If all the genetic material belongs to Mary, then He is simply mortal. If all the genetic material belongs to God, then He is simply divine.


:)

Indeed. Like begets like.

I love the illustration too, with the truth being so simply manifest, that a little child can understand.

:angel:
 
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Ran77

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God does not have a body or a genetic code, as Holy Scripture and Reason make clear.

In order for Jesus to be fully man, He must have. And by your thesis, if God has no genetic code then Christ received all His genetic code from Mary and is fully mortal - period.


:tutu:
 
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Rescued One

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I've never heard that explanation. It sure isn't documented as our doctrine on the matter. This is another case of presenting something that LDS don't actually believe.

You are not omniscient and therefore can not say what all LDS believe. I personally do not care one iota whether or not you were told what I was told. And you can not tell me what I was told or not told.
 
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Brennin

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In order for Jesus to be fully man, He must have. And by your thesis, if God has no genetic code then Christ received all His genetic code from Mary and is fully mortal - period.


:tutu:

Wrong. First of all, God could have created the other set of 23 chromosomes ex novo. Secondly, the Bible does not teach Jesus Christ is half God and half man; that's paganism. Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Logos, not some Hercules or Dionysus rip-off.
 
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Brennin

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Indeed. Like begets like.

I love the illustration too, with the truth being so simply manifest, that a little child can understand.

:angel:

1 Corinthians 13:11

11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
 
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Rescued One

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Wrong. First of all, God could have created the other set of 23 chromosomes ex novo. Secondly, the Bible does not teach Jesus Christ is half God and half man; that's paganism. Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of the Divine Logos; he is not some Hercules or Dionysus rip-off.

:thumbsup:
 
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Ran77

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You are not omniscient and therefore can not say what all LDS believe. I personally do not care one iota whether or not you were told what I was told. And you can not tell me what I was told or not told.

And I do not care one iota what you were told, or claim you were told. What you presented is not our doctrine. If you want to claim "I was told . . ." then it is amazing that you would object to me offering my experience on the topic. Why is it ok for you to do this, but not LDS? Or is it a double standard?


:)
 
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