Jesus Camp

Spoonbill

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.
 

drich0150

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I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

Kinda how the school system and even children's shows are now trying to indoctrinate young children into accepting same sex marriages/unions?
 
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aiki

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.

I have not seen the film. Probably won't ever see it.

I can remark - without having seen the film - on the matter of "indoctrination" of children, however.

The reality is that every child faces "indoctrination" by many sources. If a child isn't at Kids On Fire Summer Camp being indoctrinated into evangelical Christian beliefs, they are sitting at home watching t.v. and being indoctrinated into the relativistic values and beliefs of the North American consumer culture, or attending public school and being indoctrinated into a completely secular, humanistic set of values and beliefs, or simply absorbing the values and beliefs of their parents (of whatever philosophical and moral perspective). Why are the latter three sources of indoctrination preferable to the former one? I don't think they are preferable at all. Now, I haven't seen how things operate at this summer camp and so may object to some of what goes on - I don't know. I do think, regardless, that objecting to Christians indoctrinating their children into the faith is an astonishingly myopic and prejudiced objection.

Peace.
 
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Spoonbill

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I have not seen the film. Probably won't ever see it.

I can remark - without having seen the film - on the matter of "indoctrination" of children, however.

The reality is that every child faces "indoctrination" by many sources. If a child isn't at Kids On Fire Summer Camp being indoctrinated into evangelical Christian beliefs, they are sitting at home watching t.v. and being indoctrinated into the relativistic values and beliefs of the North American consumer culture, or attending public school and being indoctrinated into a completely secular, humanistic set of values and beliefs, or simply absorbing the values and beliefs of their parents (of whatever philosophical and moral perspective). Why are the latter three sources of indoctrination preferable to the former one? I don't think they are preferable at all. Now, I haven't seen how things operate at this summer camp and so may object to some of what goes on - I don't know. I do think, regardless, that objecting to Christians indoctrinating their children into the faith is an astonishingly myopic and prejudiced objection.

Peace.

Forcing children to believe in, what many consider to be, myth, without giving them the option to choose what they want to believe in, by giving them ALL the facts is basically child abuse. You are forcing your beliefs on a child. Give a child ALL the options and let them decide for themselves.

What chance does a child have in this world if from the age of 3 you are telling them the world is 6000 years old and IT CANNOT BE QUESTIONED?
 
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Spoonbill

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Kinda how the school system and even children's shows are now trying to indoctrinate young children into accepting same sex marriages/unions?

Same sex marriages/unions ARE OK. Homosexuality occurs everywhere in nature. This means it is NATURAL.

People are born gay. Not accepting it is like not accepting someone because they were born with one leg, or with red hair. It is intolerance at a base level and it should not be taught to children unless they are old enough to decide for themselves.
 
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drich0150

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Same sex marriages/unions ARE OK. Homosexuality occurs everywhere in nature. This means it is NATURAL.

People are born gay. Not accepting it is like not accepting someone because they were born with one leg, or with red hair. It is intolerance at a base level and it should not be taught to children unless they are old enough to decide for themselves.

Because you did not directly address my question, and because you answered a question I can only assume you wished I asked, I will take it to mean that you believe it is Ok to teach young children your version of morality and not anyone else's..

So, that would mean that you believe that, Indoctrination is Ok so long as you approve of it, and is not Ok if you do not agree with it...

This does this not sound hypocritical to you?
It's as if you had said:
Intolerance is never acceptable for anything I approve of! Just like tolerance for something I disapprove of (like a Jesus Camp) is also NEVER acceptable!

Where do you draw the line? Is there even a line? or is it just what's currently popular to think?

Also know that Murder is also and Rape is an activity found everywhere in the animal Kingdom, therefore Murder and Rape is also NATURAL. in your indoctrinated way of thinking, does it make it Ok to Murder and Rape as well??

why or why not? It meets the criteria you have for homosexuality, or is it simply not popular to murder and rape others..

Kinda makes one think. Without God right and wrong is kinda left up to a mob mentality.. (Inca's, Rome, Greece, 1940's Germany)
 
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Spoonbill

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Because you did not directly address my question, and because you answered a question I can only assume you wished I asked, I will take it to mean that you believe it is Ok to teach young children your version of morality and not anyone else's..

So, that would mean that you believe that, Indoctrination is Ok so long as you approve of it, and is not Ok if you do not agree with it...

This does this not sound hypocritical to you?
It's as if you had said:
Intolerance is never acceptable for anything I approve of! Just like tolerance for something I disapprove of (like a Jesus Camp) is also NEVER acceptable!

Where do you draw the line? Is there even a line? or is it just what's currently popular to think?

Also know that Murder is also and Rape is an activity found everywhere in the animal Kingdom, therefore Murder and Rape is also NATURAL. in your indoctrinated way of thinking, does it make it Ok to Murder and Rape as well??

why or why not? It meets the criteria you have for homosexuality, or is it simply not popular to murder and rape others..

Kinda makes one think. Without God right and wrong is kinda left up to a mob mentality.. (Inca's, Rome, Greece, 1940's Germany)

The difference between my view and yours is I do not promote intolerance. In any form.

By the way, if you read my previous statement you would see that I said it is a naturally occuring thing. I would not attempt to censor something that occurs naturally. That is like saying God made a mistake.

Murder and rape are personal choices. Homosexuality is (generally) not. You comparing homosexuality to rape and murder just further proves my point what kind of intolerant mentality you have towards it.
 
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ebia

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.
I have not seen the film, but perhaps that might set a better platform for discussion anyway. What is it about the film that causes you to classify it as indoctrination?
 
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drich0150

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The difference between my view and yours is I do not promote intolerance. In any form.
But it seems that you do, in that you are intolerant against those who observe ideals, and standards not to your personal liking. If not why rebuke someone for not believing as you do?

Murder and rape are personal choices. Homosexuality is (generally) not.You comparing homosexuality to rape and murder just further proves my point what kind of intolerant mentality you have towards it.

In your rebuke you failed to address the point I was making. In that because you believe homosexuality can be considered a natural process, would you consider Rape and Murder acceptable behaviors, because they too are also considered to be natural processes.. Animals Kill to eat all of the time, some animals kill just to kill, like cats and dogs. Others rape: Meier cats, monkeys, gorillas all rape. One could argue that these processes are a necessary part of their lives.

So with those perfectly natural survival processes in Mind, is it ok for people to rape and murder just because other animals do it? Or would you choose to censor out that process?

Why or Why not?

This is not an appropriate forum to bash out your respective positions on homosexuality.
My point has very little to do with Homosexuality. I personally don't care what others do or do not do privately (Who am I to judge another man's servant.) The Point I'm trying to make is in the thought process that allows one form of bigoted behavior and censors another. Homosexuality is merely the vehicle that I'm using to illustrate that point.

I'm sorry if the conversation looks to be judgmental christian behavior or anything else not to your liking, but at the same time it is on topic and one that the OP chose.
 
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aiki

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Forcing children to believe in, what many consider to be, myth, without giving them the option to choose what they want to believe in, by giving them ALL the facts is basically child abuse.

Well, your saying so doesn't make it so. And thank goodness! The intolerance for perspectives other than your own evident in your words here is appalling!

Your wording gives away your prejudice. Its obvious, I think, that it only seems like "forcing" and "indoctrination" when the beliefs being urged upon children aren't your own. Just because you think the Christian faith is mythical doesn't mean everyone has to give credence to such a bigoted perspective.

You are forcing your beliefs on a child. Give a child ALL the options and let them decide for themselves.

Try that in a toy store and see what happens!

What chance does a child have in this world if from the age of 3 you are telling them the world is 6000 years old and IT CANNOT BE QUESTIONED?

Chance for what? To embrace your way of thinking? Hopefully, none at all.

Peace.
 
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childofGod31

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.


I have not seen it. But I know there are many false doctrines and deception everywhere. So this movie could either be truth or deception (depending on what it says).

God is good. God is love. God is wisdom. God is light. Whatever is pure and good that is God. Whatever is the opposite that is evil and humans, since they have evil within themselves.

Doctrines are bad. But teaching children to know God, to know good, to fight for good against evil is good.

We need to realize that selfishness is the root of the evil on the earth. The power of evil thrives on it. We need to focus on teaching our children to love God and to love other people and to not be selfish.

Christianity (in many churches) has been made into a religion and it's hard to tell between them and it's been an obstacle to people who seek good and seek love and seek God. As God said: because of your behavior, my people, my name is being blashemed (slandered against) among the unbelievers.)

I wrote about the difference between Christian religion and Christian faith here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7448799-4/#post54360803

So don't let religion be your stumbling block. But find God yourself. That is if you like good, like pure, like love, like treating all with kindness and expecting the same from others. Some people don't like those things...
 
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GreenMunchkin

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.
It doesn't show how most - or even many - Christians live out their faith. Becky Fischer isn't representative of Christianity.

That being said, children ought to be allowed to make their own minds up - it's why so many Christians are against infant baptism. If a child experiences God and chooses to follw Him, there will doubtless be an atheist (or someone against Christianity) there claiming they haven't made up their own mind and they've been indoctrinated. But a child believes in, for example, evolution without being able to explain why, and they'll claim it's just good sense.

It seems to me most people support kids' right to their own belief as long as it tracks with their own.
 
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zaksmummy

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Duet 6v4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. a Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at
home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

God instructs us to teach our children about him so that they will learn to love him and worship him. This is a good thing.

However, the problem I have with "Jesus camp" is the statement "where kids are taught to become dedicated christian soldiers in Gods army and are schooled in how to take back Americas for Christ ....... an intensive training ground that recruits born again christian children to become active part of Americas political future"

This is wrong on so many levels.
 
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silence_dogood

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Has anyone seen this film?

Jesus Camp

What are your opinions on it? Personally it made me feel pretty sick. I think children should be given the chance to make up their own minds, not indoctrinated before they even have a concept of right or wrong.

If you have not seen this movie, I suggest you do. It is very eye opening.


While Jesus Camp isn'tan accurate depiction of Biblical Christianity, it also isn't a good reason to go in the opposite direction and neglect the teaching of our children.

Good parents teach their children.
 
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silence_dogood

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Forcing children to believe in, what many consider to be, myth, without giving them the option to choose what they want to believe in, by giving them ALL the facts is basically child abuse. You are forcing your beliefs on a child. Give a child ALL the options and let them decide for themselves.

I believe that children shouldn't run out into the highway. I believe that 2+2=3. I believe that it's good to wash your hands before you eat. I believe that we should say please and thank you. I believe that we should keep the safety on until we're ready to shoot. I believe you shouldn't walk up behind a horse without letting him know you're there.

Should I really not teach my children these things. Should I just say, "You know, your mom and I personally don't run out into the highway, but why don't you try it and see if you like it"? Or how about, "It's my own belief that it's not a good idea to get into a car with a strange man, but everybody believes something different. It's up to you to find out what your own beliefs are"?

What chance does a child have in this world if from the age of 3 you are telling them the world is 6000 years old and IT CANNOT BE QUESTIONED?

Well first of all, we don't teach our children that the world is only 6,000 years old. We simply tell them that nobody knows how old it is, but we can reason that it can't be the billions of years pop-science tells us it is.

Second, we also never tell them they can't question. We invite them to question. That's how they learn.

Same sex marriages/unions ARE OK. Homosexuality occurs everywhere in nature. This means it is NATURAL.

So then, do you teach your children that homosexuality is OK, or do you expose them to many opinions and let them decide for themselves?

People are born gay.

All sinners are born sinners.

Not accepting it is like not accepting someone because they were born with one leg, or with red hair. It is intolerance at a base level and it should not be taught to children unless they are old enough to decide for themselves.

No, there are a couple of very obvious differences.

The first is that because we disagree with homosexuality and believe the Bible's teaching that it is a sin in no way means that we don't accept the individual. The second is that being born with one leg is a physical deformity, not a sin. The third is that by calling our religious beliefs intolerant, you're being both intolerant and judgemental, thereby doing the very thing you say we shouldn't do.

The difference between my view and yours is I do not promote intolerance. In any form.

See above.

By the way, if you read my previous statement you would see that I said it is a naturally occuring thing. I would not attempt to censor something that occurs naturally. That is like saying God made a mistake.

So then, do you believe that we should help children born with physical deformities that can be repaired through surgery?

Murder and rape are personal choices. Homosexuality is (generally) not.

All sin is a personal choice. Not only do you have to make a conscious decision to do it, you also have the choice to repent of it.
 
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