Uganda wants to pass bill to hang homosexuals.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 26, 2010

Originally Posted by BigBadWlf Why laugh?…that translation indicating those who engage in kidnapping to sell people into slavery (in modern terms white slavery) is far more accurate and coincides with fifty or so other text where the word arsenokoites appears

Philothei said:
because this is not what 'arsenokoites" means it is simple ....as much as you "make it work" the words do not lie

Hi Philo.
I didn't look thru the whole thread, but is that greek word used anywhere in the OT LXX?

The greek word #730 is "neuter"? while #2845 is "feminine". [Not sure what the significance of the double "r" shown in the lexicon is].

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Young) 1 Corinthians 6:9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites/arsenokoitai <733>,

Young) 1 Timothy 1:10 whoremongers, sodomites/arsenokoitaiV <733>, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

Strong's Number G733 matches the Greek ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

733. arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace from 730 and 2845; a sodomite:--abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.
730. arrhen ar'-hrane or arsen ar'-sane probably from 142; male (as stronger for lifting):--male, man. [Neuter]
2845. koite koy'-tay from 2749; a couch; by extension, cohabitation; by implication, the male sperm:--bed, chambering, X conceive.

Philothei · Mar 26, 2010

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi Philo.
I didn't look thru the whole thread, but is that greek word used anywhere in the OT LXX?

The greek word #730 is "neuter"? while #2845 is "feminine". [Not sure what the significance of the double "r" shown in the lexicon is].

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Young) 1 Corinthians 6:9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites/arsenokoitai <733>,

Young) 1 Timothy 1:10 whoremongers, sodomites/arsenokoitaiV <733>, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

Strong's Number G733 matches the Greek ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

733. arsenokoites ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace from 730 and 2845; a sodomite:--abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.
730. arrhen ar'-hrane or arsen ar'-sane probably from 142; male (as stronger for lifting):--male, man. [Neuter]
2845. koite koy'-tay from 2749; a couch; by extension, cohabitation; by implication, the male sperm:--bed, chambering, X conceive.

in this case arsenokoitis is the singular (the one (male) who sleeps with a male)

Aresnokoitai is plural (the ones) (males) who sleep with males the ending is muscusline if it was feminine it would have been 'es"
Like
γυναικα singular , γυναικες plural... this is in Hellenistic Greek...

What I have seen some to prove it means women with men they switch the ednings....hehe to make it feminine...

In modern greek the ending for the masculine nouns is the same as the feminine endings so ....that is another sneaky way to run away with the mistranslating the word. In modern Greek the ending will be 'es"(ε&#962

αρσενοκοιτες....but not in Hellenistic or Ancient. And of course that is where the agenda ridden linguists step up to evade... :sorry:

BigBadWlf · Mar 27, 2010

"Arseno- means 'male' and can be either the subject or object of the action in question, gramatically as well as sexually. 'Koites' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'; in the singular it can be used either literally as a generic 'bed' or figuratively, as in The marriage bed. In the latter case, it connotes sexual monogamy, among other things. In the plural, 'koitai', it is used to mean 'bedding around' [cf Rom13:13], a more appropriate term for promiscuity than 'inappropriate contenteia', which properly mean prostitution.

Combining the terms leads to saying that 'arsenokoitai' means literally, 'male fornicator' or really, 'promiscuous male' but this runs into some troubles. First, 'arsenokoitai' is a feminine plural noun! It could be this simply reflects that gender of the bed or it could mean the gender of the offending party. Either way your point disappears. If the former then we have a man going to a woman in HER bed…which is not homosexuality or in the latter the prohibition is against promiscuous females

"This is mistaken. The noun 'arsenokoites' is masculine, and its plural is 'arsenokoitai' (also masculine). It is wrong to say that the correct plural for masculine 'arsenokoites' is 'arsenokoitoi'. What probably confused you is that many feminine nouns (those ending in -a or -e) have a plural in -ai. On the other hand, many masculine nouns (those ending in -os) have a plural in -oi. But masculine 'agentive' nouns (sort of like English nouns ending in '-er' or '-or' like 'actor' or 'banker') have a nominative singular in -es, and a nominative plural in -ai. There are hundreds of such words. One common biblical word following the same pattern, for example, is 'mathetes' ('disciple'). The plural is 'mathetai', which looks feminine to people who have only a passing knowledge of Greek, but is really masculine. Or, from Classical Athens, there's 'dikastes', 'judge' the plural of which was 'dikastai', 'judges'."

Mixed plurals are always masculine; only when all members of a group are female can a feminine plural be used (if one exists).

BigBadWlf · Mar 27, 2010

"Arseno- means 'male' and can be either the subject or object of the action in question, gramatically as well as sexually. 'Koites' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'; in the singular it can be used either literally as a generic 'bed' or figuratively, as in The marriage bed. In the latter case, it connotes sexual monogamy, among other things. In the plural, 'koitai', it is used to mean 'bedding around' [cf Rom13:13], a more appropriate term for promiscuity than 'inappropriate contenteia', which properly mean prostitution.

Combining the terms leads to saying that 'arsenokoitai' means literally, 'male fornicator' or really, 'promiscuous male' but this runs into some troubles. First, 'arsenokoitai' is a feminine plural noun! It could be this simply reflects that gender of the bed or it could mean the gender of the offending party. Either way your point disappears. If the former then we have a man going to a woman in HER bedwhich is not homosexuality or in the latter the prohibition is against promiscuous females

"This is mistaken. The noun 'arsenokoites' is masculine, and its plural is 'arsenokoitai' (also masculine). It is wrong to say that the correct plural for masculine 'arsenokoites' is 'arsenokoitoi'. What probably confused you is that many feminine nouns (those ending in -a or -e) have a plural in -ai. On the other hand, many masculine nouns (those ending in -os) have a plural in -oi. But masculine 'agentive' nouns (sort of like English nouns ending in '-er' or '-or' like 'actor' or 'banker') have a nominative singular in -es, and a nominative plural in -ai. There are hundreds of such words. One common biblical word following the same pattern, for example, is 'mathetes' ('disciple'). The plural is 'mathetai', which looks feminine to people who have only a passing knowledge of Greek, but is really masculine. Or, from Classical Athens, there's 'dikastes', 'judge' the plural of which was 'dikastai', 'judges'."

Mixed plurals are always masculine; only when all members of a group are female can a feminine plural be used (if one exists).

Archer93 · Mar 27, 2010

'arsen' is a masculine noun meaning 'male'.
'koite' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'.

It's been a long time since I studied Ancient Greek (which predates Koine Greek by at least as much as Modern Greek follows it) and I don't know which declension either of them are, nor what happens when two nouns are combined; but either way, the gender of the noun has nothing to do with the sex of the people interacting with it.
If you put a masculine ending onto a feminine noun, you wouldn't have a word that relates to men, you would just have bad grammar.

If someone out there knows what declension 'koite' is, we can look at 'arsenokoites' as Paul wrote it (it would be the Nominative, yes, since these people are the ones doing something, in this case 'not inheriting the kingdom of heaven'?), and see if it's a masculine or feminine noun.
But that's all it'll tell us.

BigBadWlf · Mar 27, 2010

Archer93 said:
'arsen' is a masculine noun meaning 'male'.
'koite' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'.

It's been a long time since I studied Ancient Greek (which predates Koine Greek by at least as much as Modern Greek follows it) and I don't know which declension either of them are, nor what happens when two nouns are combined; but either way, the gender of the noun has nothing to do with the sex of the people interacting with it.
If you put a masculine ending onto a feminine noun, you wouldn't have a word that relates to men, you would just have bad grammar.

If someone out there knows what declension 'koite' is, we can look at 'arsenokoites' as Paul wrote it (it would be the Nominative, yes, since these people are the ones doing something, in this case 'not inheriting the kingdom of heaven'?), and see if it's a masculine or feminine noun.
But that's all it'll tell us.

arsenokoites is a plural first declension noun. The word koitai, without the arseno- prefix, is feminine, just as most first declension nouns in Greek are. Thus referring to a man and a womans bed, not in the bed of another man

In the Greek language, nouns of various declensions have different endings, depending on number, gender, and case (function in the sentence). First Declension feminine nouns have the same plural endings in the nominative and dative cases as First Declension masculine plural nouns in those two cases.

The word in Corinthians and Timothy appear only in the plural nominative and dative forms --which would coincide with an otherwise unknown masculine plural nominative and dative.

So we are left either to assume that the noun is, as usual, feminine, or to posit that in this unique instance it has been changed into a masculine grammatical form: a case of trans-gendered linguistics. This ignores the fact that in Greek, "the bed" as a concrete object and as slang for a prostitute or very promiscuous person, is feminine: he koite. Arsenokoites matches the spelling we would expect for the female prostitute or promiscuous woman --the one who makes herself available to any man who comes along.

The muddies part coems when trying to decide whether we have a male who beds people, or a person who beds males. While either is theoretically possible, this compound noun is similar to another, arrenotokos (arreno- being a variant of arseno-) which is not a .male bearer of children but a (female) bearer of male children.. With arsenokoite, it seems to be a graphic term to describe a woman who makes herself a bed for males. She might not be a professional prostitute, but she is promiscuous.

This definition fits perfectly with the use of arsenokoites in I timothy which contains a double allusion to those who commit adultery. The grammar indicates, and the context easily supports, that these offenders are 1) sexually promiscuous men (inappropriate contentoi) and 2) sexually promiscuous.

If we make the text speak only of men, as some are trying to do then they are 1) men who are promiscuous or who resort to (female) prostitutes --inappropriate contentoi-- and 2) men who choose to be prostitutes or promiscuous themselves, whether with men or with women --arsenokoitai. Insisting that arseno- in this compound word describes the koitai ("beds" who are male), does not disclose for whom the men are beds. They could be promiscuous with women or men or both, but the sin ether way is promiscuity, not sexual orientation.

Philothei · Mar 27, 2010

'koite' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'.

Koites is NOT a noun...it is a gerund from the verb "koitomai" i lay ..

so it is masculine. Otherwise it would indeed no make any sense..why it would be in masculine and the ending does not justify it

Koites is not the male beds... (?") but these who lay...in this case "men" "arsen"

CreedIsChrist · Mar 27, 2010

'koite' is a feminine noun meaning 'bed'.

This is wrong

Wouldn't "bed" in greek be "Kline",klinēn ? Philo?

She went home and found her child lying on the bed(κλίνην ,klinēn), and the demon gone. - Mark 7:30

also "krabattos" can mean bed..However, it is more of a "mat". Or a cloth to lie down on.
Original Word: κράββατος
Transliteration: krabattos
Phonetic Spelling: (krab'-bat-os)
Short Definition: bed

The kline (bed or sofa) image reminds John 5:1-47 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."

"Koite" means "bedders". To bed someone. It is relating to an action, not a noun.

Philothei · Mar 27, 2010

Or, from Classical Athens, there's 'dikastes', 'judge' the plural of which was 'dikastai', 'judges'."

Which is it then? dikastes or dikastai???

modern greek it is dikastes ancient and hellenistic is dikastai they are both masculine but different times... The above source you used has wrong usage of Greek

Arsenokoitai is stricktly the noun formed by two words

Arsen :male

and Koitai:" these who lay... in a bed" masculine as it is a verbal form and in greek it is a gerund that "acts" like a noun for example in singular is the same
o (article for musculine) αρσενοκοιτης
η αρσενοκοτης Both have the same ending in singular...
In plural thought we are more lucky as they form differently:

οι (article) αρσενοκοιται (musculine)
αι (article) αρσενοκοιτες (feminine) that would signify literaly men who sleep with women "who lay with"

example from the bible :with the word women

η γυναικα (singular feminine)
αι γυναικες (plural femine)

examples in gerunds:

ο λεγομενος(masculine singular)
οι λεγομενοι (masculine plural)

the femine is not the same here in singular but it is a regular as follows:

η λεγομενη
αι λεγομενες

This translates as "the one who says" literally... and it is mentioned many times in the bible...
what I think people confuse is the word
η κοιτη that means bed...but it is not since the grammar proves it is not used in a femimine gender here the grammar does not prove it to be feminine...but masculine.

Philothei · Mar 27, 2010

"Koite" means "bedders". To bed someone. It is relating to an action, not a noun.

bingo you got it !!!!!!

It is the "bedder" it is not the bed... or then why used in different endings?
It is a gerund like I noted above...

CreedIsChrist · Mar 28, 2010

Philothei said:
bingo you got it !!!!!!

It is the "bedder" it is not the bed... or then why used in different endings?
It is a gerund like I noted above...

Indeed. Bed, as a noun, in Greek is klinēn. Whenever the word 'bed' is used in the NT the greek translation is klinēn most of the time, with the exception sometimes of krabattos, which is more related to a sitting-mat than an actual bed.

one11 · Mar 28, 2010

BigBadWlf said:
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did hateful things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Ezekiel 16: 49-50

I noticed something the other day in the reading of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot was feeding UNLEAVENED BREAD to the Angels. Unleavened bread could point to the fact that this was the Passover and the Feast of Nissan and the men of Sodom were set out to desecrate the feast. That is probably why Lot offered his daughters as they were virgins and could have been married, but all the men wanting to do a pagan sex practice or fertility ritual during the Feast of Nissan would have been especially detestable.

Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone has any insight as to why the UNLEAVENED BREAD in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? (for more info, read what I wrote above.)

LightHorseman · Mar 28, 2010

one11 said:
I noticed something the other day in the reading of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot was feeding UNLEAVENED BREAD to the Angels. Unleavened bread could point to the fact that this was the Passover and the Feast of Nissan and the men of Sodom were set out to desecrate the feast. That is probably why Lot offered his daughters as they were virgins and could have been married, but all the men wanting to do a pagan sex practice or fertility ritual during the Feast of Nissan would have been especially detestable.

Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone has any insight as to why the UNLEAVENED BREAD in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? (for more info, read what I wrote above.)

Maybe I'm way off base here... but Passover being a celebration of an event that occured in Exodus, and the Sodom and Gomorrah incident occuring in Genesis... doesn't that make it sort of unlikely that Lot was celebrating the feast of Passover?

Unleavened bread is common in the middle East, yeast doesn't like the local environment.

CreedIsChrist · Mar 28, 2010

one11 said:
I noticed something the other day in the reading of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot was feeding UNLEAVENED BREAD to the Angels. Unleavened bread could point to the fact that this was the Passover and the Feast of Nissan and the men of Sodom were set out to desecrate the feast. That is probably why Lot offered his daughters as they were virgins and could have been married, but all the men wanting to do a pagan sex practice or fertility ritual during the Feast of Nissan would have been especially detestable.

Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone has any insight as to why the UNLEAVENED BREAD in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah? (for more info, read what I wrote above.)

You realize Lot existed long long before the exodus. There was no passover during the times of Lot because Lot existed in the times of genesis, not exodus..

Unleavened bread was celebrated by the Hebrews because it is considered not "corrupted" by leavening agents and because the Hebrews did not have time to leaven their bread during the real passover. The unleavened bread symbolized the haste in which the flight from Egypt was to take place. However also because leaven is a sign of corruption. As Christ says to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees.

brightmorningstar · Mar 29, 2010

All the pro-gay Christian group do is dispute the meaning of what the scriptures actually say that exclude and condmen same sex sexual relationships, they dont have anything to support what they propose, so the whole debate is a baseless and worthless waste of time. All the the pro-gay Christian group are doing is showing in detail to the rest, that they dont actually believe or have the faith they claim.

LightHorseman · Mar 29, 2010

brightmorningstar said:
All the pro-gay Christian group do is dispute the meaning of what the scriptures actually say that exclude and condmen same sex sexual relationships, they dont have anything to support what they propose, so the whole debate is a baseless and worthless waste of time. All the the pro-gay Christian group are doing is showing in detail to the rest, that they dont actually believe or have the faith they claim.

Baloney.

Sermon on the mount.

David Brider · Mar 29, 2010

Philothei said:
bingo you got it !!!!!!

It is the "bedder" it is not the bed... or then why used in different endings?
It is a gerund like I noted above...

Okay, so arsenokoites could mean men-bedders.

Three questions:

1.) Does that mean "men who bed other people"?
2.) Does it mean "people who bed men"?
3.) Either way, does that actually sound like "homosexual" would be a good translation of the word? 'Cos it doesn't to me.

David.

Archer93 · Mar 29, 2010

CreedIsChrist said:
This is wrong

Wouldn't "bed" in greek be "Kline",klinēn ? Philo?

She went home and found her child lying on the bed(κλίνην ,klinēn), and the demon gone. - Mark 7:30

also "krabattos" can mean bed..However, it is more of a "mat". Or a cloth to lie down on.
Original Word: κράββατος
Transliteration: krabattos
Phonetic Spelling: (krab'-bat-os)
Short Definition: bed

The kline (bed or sofa) image reminds John 5:1-47 Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk."

"Koite" means "bedders". To bed someone. It is relating to an action, not a noun.

'Koite' totally means 'bed'
Greek Word Study Tool
and is used 4 times in the NT
Word Frequency Information

Archer93 · Mar 29, 2010

Philothei said:
Koites is NOT a noun...it is a gerund from the verb "koitomai" i lay ..

so it is masculine. Otherwise it would indeed no make any sense..why it would be in masculine and the ending does not justify it

Koites is not the male beds... (?") but these who lay...in this case "men" "arsen"

The 'ai' ending is the standard first declension feminine ending.
As I say, it's been a long time since I studied Ancient Greek, but I do seem to recall that it doesn't have a gerund. I had a bad enough time with the things in Latin, I do recall relief that I wasn't going to be tackling them in Greek as well.
I know that Modern Greek has gerunds. When did the transition occur?

brightmorningstar · Mar 29, 2010

To Lighthorseman,
Sermon on the mount doesnt support same sex sexual relationships, it supports male female marriage. In verses 27-32 it describes men looking at women lustfully and committing adultery and divorce. A man should not marrry a divorced woman and should not divorce except for maritial unfaithfulness.

Where does it support paedophilia, prostitution, same sex relationships or any other sexual relationship that it doesnt mention?

Uganda wants to pass bill to hang homosexuals.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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