Salvation for only Christians?

Hey,

So my question is, is it possible for non-christians (someone who isn't purposely following Jesus) to be saved and to go to Heaven after they die?

My opinion is yes partly because it seems unreasonable for salvation to be knowledge. I'll give my full reason later on in the thread.

Solarwave

I know there are People that lives a very good life and by good standards, But i wish they would come to heaven, but i'm unsure if they do since Jesus Said in John 14:5-7 (new international version) 5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


In verse 6 Jesus said that "no one come to the Father except through me."
I i believe that the Bible is the Words of Jesus and our Father.
I really wish that other people would made it to heaven, but i think that they won't

God is Just. And the bible actually speaks of people who will be in heaven who didnt accept Jesus. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rahab. To name a few. But under the new covenent I pesonally believe that only people who have never heard of Jesus will be let off, not those who rejected him.

heggarty said:

God is Just. And the bible actually speaks of people who will be in heaven who didnt accept Jesus. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rahab. To name a few. But under the new covenent I pesonally believe that only people who have never heard of Jesus will be let off, not those who rejected him.

Click to expand...

Cool, but a Youth Pastor showed me a cool place in the Old Test. that it stands that He believed in the Son if God and therefor was forgiven and saved for his sins, so for basics, it stands that he was forgiven by the Messiah before Jesus was born, it is kind of creepy verse and hard to understand it flipped my mind for a while. But i'll look it up where it stands since i don't want to give false information. can't remember now but i think it was Isaiah.

Well to the above posts it really depends what you mean by belief in the Son and what it looks like to follow the way of Jesus. Does belief mean you must know that there was a Jewish man (who was God incarnate) who lived 2000 years ago who died on a tree to save you from your sin? Or less specific, for example, that God incarnate died to save you. Or simply faith and an attitude of love towards a 'higher being'?

I'll give my view now;

Consider this, was Abraham a jew or under God's promise when he was born? I would say no since it all began with Abraham (as Paul says Abraham was saved by his faith). That would mean Abraham was a man like anyone but who has great faith in God and is therefore saved. Would it not be possible then that other people at the time of Abraham could also be saved by faith?

If that is true then it seems likely that when the Hebrews became God's chosen people God would not in effect make unsaveable most people on earth because of Abrahams extreme faith because they happened to be born to the wrong people group.

If then salvation was possible for all people with faith before Christ why would Christ's death then condemn most people? For Christ did not come to condemn the world butto save it. Christ death and resurrection is ment to be good news to all people so it seems highly unloving for the possibility of salvation to be removed from most people because Christ died for them.

Would it not seem then that all people can be saved by faith and an attitude of love directed towards their understanding of God as best as possible.

Of course those who are Christians have a very special relationship with God like no other religion and the fullness of grace can only be felt in Christianity and only Christians can be sure of their salvation.

Of course Im not saying this is most definitely true, but it is a theory.

Solarwave

solarwave said:

Well to the above posts it really depends what you mean by belief in the Son and what it looks like to follow the way of Jesus. Does belief mean you must know that there was a Jewish man (who was God incarnate) who lived 2000 years ago who died on a tree to save you from your sin? Or less specific, for example, that God incarnate died to save you. Or simply faith and an attitude of love towards a 'higher being'?

I'll give my view now;

Consider this, was Abraham a jew or under God's promise when he was born? I would say no since it all began with Abraham (as Paul says Abraham was saved by his faith). That would mean Abraham was a man like anyone but who has great faith in God and is therefore saved. Would it not be possible then that other people at the time of Abraham could also be saved by faith?

If that is true then it seems likely that when the Hebrews became God's chosen people God would not in effect make unsaveable most people on earth because of Abrahams extreme faith because they happened to be born to the wrong people group.

If then salvation was possible for all people with faith before Christ why would Christ's death then condemn most people? For Christ did not come to condemn the world butto save it. Christ death and resurrection is ment to be good news to all people so it seems highly unloving for the possibility of salvation to be removed from most people because Christ died for them.

Would it not seem then that all people can be saved by faith and an attitude of love directed towards their understanding of God as best as possible.

Of course those who are Christians have a very special relationship with God like no other religion and the fullness of grace can only be felt in Christianity and only Christians can be sure of their salvation.

Of course Im not saying this is most definitely true, but it is a theory.

Solarwave

Click to expand...

I must actually disagree, because God sent us the Son for we couldn't live by the Laws, we weren't able to stay off the sins to get to heaven.
That's why we need the son to save us John 3:17 (For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.)
He would live a life without sins and be the last and only sacrifice. That's why they didn't brake his bones when he came down the cross
(they did that before broke all the bones to kill them if they where still alive but Jesus was dead enough since all the torture he suffered).
It stands in the Leviticus chapter 1-6 (maybe and additional chapter or 2) about the rules about sacrifice shall not have broken bones and blah blah blah, really boring to read, it is like repeating all the six chapters.

Then Jesus suffered for nothing, if you come to heaven without believing in God.

But according to you saying people could say "Hey, you there atheist don't make the sins. you'll come to heaven you don't need to believe in the father"
Like what? makes no sens to me.

I'm pretty sure that, salvation comes throw Jesus and thats why Christians has a big part to tell the world about the the good new. so other can be saved.

{ADDING 23:rd march 2010 08.02am}
Salvation isn't for Christians, since we already got it that's why salvation is for non Christians.
{End of add}

Stjernkvist said:

I must actually disagree, because God sent us the Son for we couldn't live by the Laws, we weren't able to stay off the sins to get to heaven.
That's why we need the son to save us John 3:17 (For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.)
He would live a life without sins and be the last and only sacrifice. That's why they didn't brake his bones when he came down the cross
(they did that before broke all the bones to kill them if they where still alive but Jesus was dead enough since all the torture he suffered).
It stands in the Leviticus chapter 1-6 (maybe and additional chapter or 2) about the rules about sacrifice shall not have broken bones and blah blah blah, really boring to read, it is like repeating all the six chapters.

Then Jesus suffered for nothing, if you come to heaven without believing in God.

But according to you saying people could say "Hey, you there atheist don't make the sins. you'll come to heaven you don't need to believe in the father"
Like what? makes no sens to me.

I'm pretty sure that, salvation comes throw Jesus and thats why Christians has a big part to tell the world about the the good new. so other can be saved.

{ADDING 23:rd march 2010 08.02am}
Salvation isn't for Christians, since we already got it that's why salvation is for non Christians.
{End of add}

Click to expand...

I don't mean to cut down the work of Christ or our duty to tell others about Jesus or to say to atheists that it doesn't matter if they follow God or not. If they think there is a God yet choose to not follow Him then that is a rejection of God and show the condition of their heart.

What I am saying should not change how we tell others about Christ or allow others to not bother with God because that is not having faith (as I stressed above).

As I said, I am not saying non-christians are saved by the law or their own beliefs but if they have a certain faith based on the amount of revelation of God they have had they can be saved. I am saying this so we can take comfort that God doesn't condemn everyone who couldn't possibly be saved. There are people who have never heard of Christ now and before Christ. Are they condemn by default because of when and where they are born or can they respond in love as best they can to God?

All this is only possible because of Christs sacrifice. I am not saying that atheists can simply not believe in God and be saved. People who don't believe in Jesus can still go to hell. What I am saying is that they must be seeking God. They must be trying to be with God as best they can.

For example you could have a hindu child in india who is old enough to sin and old enough to be faithful to the hindu god/s. Then he dies. Can you blame Him for not believing in Christ? Maybe he heard that the was a a good jewish man who crazy christians believe was the son of God. Can you blame him for not believing in this man?

Here is my point: No one can come to heaven without going through Jesus. You can turn away from God and not care about Him and be saved. You must seek God to be saved.

But it is possible that some faithfull people, who didn't knowingly believe in Christ, may be able to be saved, but only if they are seeking God the best way they know how. If this is no true then millions upon millions of people have died never having a chance of salvation.

NO!shua said:

So I reject Jesus and yet I'll go to hell? Even though I live a life undeniably more ethical than some Christians,ex. no drinking, smoking, stealing, breaking the law.

Click to expand...

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

NO!shua said:

So I reject Jesus and yet I'll go to hell? Even though I live a life undeniably more ethical than some Christians,ex. no drinking, smoking, stealing, breaking the law.

Click to expand...

If you reject God why would you go to heaven if heaven is God's home?

The point is that everyone sins and everyone is separated from God and the only way back to God is through Jesus because He paid the price for us to come back to God (since sin requires punishment, but it is on Jesus instead of us).

So it comes down to accept or rejecting Jesus and so God. If you seek you will find.

solarwave said:

If you reject God why would you go to heaven if heaven is God's home?

The point is that everyone sins and everyone is separated from God and the only way back to God is through Jesus because He paid the price for us to come back to God (since sin requires punishment, but it is on Jesus instead of us).

So it comes down to accept or rejecting Jesus and so God. If you seek you will find.

Click to expand...

I agree with this

solarwave said:

If you reject God why would you go to heaven if heaven is God's home?

The point is that everyone sins and everyone is separated from God and the only way back to God is through Jesus because He paid the price for us to come back to God (since sin requires punishment, but it is on Jesus instead of us).

So it comes down to accept or rejecting Jesus and so God. If you seek you will find.

Click to expand...

Amen bro! agreed.


Mat 7:7-8
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. "

NO!shua said:

So I reject Jesus and yet I'll go to hell? Even though I live a life undeniably more ethical than some Christians,ex. no drinking, smoking, stealing, breaking the law.

Click to expand...

A sin is a sin. Wheather it's murder or a small lie, it's all equal.

NO!shua said:

So I reject Jesus and yet I'll go to hell? Even though I live a life undeniably more ethical than some Christians,ex. no drinking, smoking, stealing, breaking the law.

Click to expand...

The entire foundation of the Gospel is that we can't earn God's favor, and that we, because of our sin, are in fact ill-deserving of His favor. Being a moral person has no effect on where you will end up, rather, will you will end up will have an effect on whether or not your a moral person.

NO!shua said:

This of course relies on the fact that Jesus did exist when we find no evidence of him in any trustworthy record. And don't say well Josephus...


Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E., well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels were written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus existed and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

'Phlegon references him to the darkness at the time of the crucifixion.' First of all Phlegon was born in the 2nd century around 80 A.D. so anything he has written about Christ is hearsay. Secondly I don’t think we can trust a source that says a solar eclipse supposedly occurred during a full moon, a scientific impossibility because during a full moon the moon is in the exact opposite position it needs to be in during a solar eclipse.

Click to expand...

Sources on this ?

Btw; Jesus did live, but the question is was he Son of God

NO!shua said:

Are you kidding me? Being a moral person has no effect on where you end up? So if I live a good life, and don't repent I will go to hell. If a murder on the other hand, let's say of Benito Mussolini (Catholic), or perhaps conquistador-like propotions (Catholics) repents they will go to heaven? This is what I would expect from a god who murders thousands unjustly.

Click to expand...

The idea that doing good things gets you into heaven is very unchristian and pretty much the opposite of it. Of course doing good things should be a result of living for God (which is what saves you in a way).

Do you think that good things must out weight bad things you do? If so if someone dies with only 49.99 percent good should they go to hell? Doesn't it seem rather unfair that if that person had lived 10 minutes more they could have done one more good and gone to heaven. Should heaven and hell lay on something so unfair as random chance like that?

Could it be possible that heaven is perfect and that the level that is needed it perfection to get in? We obviously fall far below God don't we? If that is so could anyone work their way to heaven? Is it better that good and bad people can be saved or that we all together go to hell?

It seems to me that it is the heart that takes you to heaven or hell. If you accept Jesus then God sees you as if you had never sinned and you go to heaven because you hearts attitude is to turn to God only possible by Jesus. But if you reject Jesus your sins are left on you so what chance do you have. If someone rejects God why would they go to heaven if heaven is God's 'home'? But also God is all good and loving and wants the best for you, so following God gives you the best possible life after death.

It may seem as if I am asking you to accept a man with no evidence, but more I am saying is seek God. Seek the truth and what is good and if He is there you will find God.

I hope you get what I mean, someone correct me if I am wrong.

NO!shua said:

This of course relies on the fact that Jesus did exist when we find no evidence of him in any trustworthy record. And don't say well Josephus...

Click to expand...

I can't give you any evidence at the moment, though I have read a book or two before on why to believe Jesus was real and God's 'Son'. I may write the main points of it at some point if anyone cares.

Reguardless of that Christianity is about relationship (which I think is partly why acceptance or rejection of God is what it comes down to on most things). Most Christians know there is God and Jesus is Him mostly because of personal experiences of this. This isn't necessarily unreasonable. I believe you can know God through pray, reading the Bible, going to church, answers to pray (God doing something for you), etc.

So you can know Jesus is real by what He says working in practise. There probably a better than that somewhere.

This may seem alot like a preach now after typing it, so please don't take it that way.

Kixa said:

A sin is a sin. Wheather it's murder or a small lie, it's all equal.

Click to expand...

Just for the fun of rocking the boat Im gunna have to say I disagree. Well not just for the fun of it, but also because the whole Bible says there are different degress of sin, except one verse (and maybe one vauge verse) that could be seen as saying they are the same. To be honest I used to think they were equal too (classic evangelical) till I had to look it up for a talk. Turns out even Jesus sais one sin was greater than another (using the words 'greater sin'). Sorry for making an issue out of what you said

But I agree with you main point, all sin is serious and the consequence of all sin is death/hell.

(I'll give the verses if you want for everything I could find for and against if you want?)

NO!shua said:

Are you kidding me? Being a moral person has no effect on where you end up? So if I live a good life, and don't repent I will go to hell. If a murder on the other hand, let's say of Benito Mussolini (Catholic), or perhaps conquistador-like propotions (Catholics) repents they will go to heaven? This is what I would expect from a god who murders thousands unjustly.

Click to expand...

The fact that you see it as scandalous means you understand it better than many professing Christians.

itisdeliciouscake said:

The fact that you see it as scandalous means you understand it better than many professing Christians.

Click to expand...

I dont think he means it like you do

solarwave said:

I dont think he means it like you do

Click to expand...

I mean it goes against the intuitive ideas of justice and fairness that every human holds dear (that is, you do good, you get good; you do bad, you get bad), and it should be seen as such.

if I ever lose a sense of wonder at how unfair it is that I am saved, then I've become calloused to the Gospel.

Agree with the above post. Once saved doesn't mean you're always saved. You need to keep seeking God.