Is it ever God's will that any of His children be tormented by Satan?

467AIR · Mar 15, 2010

Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of a mighty God.

Job 1:8And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job , that there is none like him on the earth,(P) a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? 10Have you not put(Q) a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have(R) blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11But(S) stretch out your hand and(T) touch all that he has, and he will(U) curse you(V) to your face." 12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

God is in control of all things; sure He limited what Satan could do; for a reason because God is always in complete control of all things to include Satan. But it was God who was the one who introduced Satan to Job Have you(N) considered my(O) servant Job. It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job. It was the process of tribulation and trial God was after; to prove Job.

Just like the Children of Israel: The Children of Israel could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:

Deut 8:1-2
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers. 2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments. (KJV)

charityagape · Mar 15, 2010

467AIR said:
Satan is nothing but a tool in the hands of a mighty God.

Sorry, but that's a lie straight from hell. God is not beating His children into submission with His evil satan hammer.

KingZzub · Mar 15, 2010

God's toolbox includes the devil?

What are the Word and the might of the Holy Spirit not enough?

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

467AIR said:
It was God who took down the hedge from around Job so Satan to do his work on job.

First of all, to believe this, you must presume that Satan is telling the truth when he mentions the hedge around Job. I'm not so sure that it's wise to believe anything the father of lies has to say.

Secondly, when Satan mentioned the hedge, God said simply, "Lo", or "Behold". Simply translated, that means "Look!". So the verse says;

Job 1:12 (KJV)
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD

So God says, "Look! All that he has is in your power." No indication is given that says there is a hedge, was a hedge, or that God took the hedge down. That is all speculation.

467AIR said:
Just like the Children of Israel: The Children of Israel could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:

But you need to go back a few chapters to see why they wandered for so long. Look at Deuteronomy 1;

Deuteronomy 1:19-36 (KJV)
And when we departed from Horeb, we went through all that great and terrible wilderness, which ye saw by the way of the mountain of the Amorites, as the LORD our God commanded us; and we came to Kadeshbarnea. And I said unto you, Ye are come unto the mountain of the Amorites, which the LORD our God doth give unto us. Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged. And ye came near unto me every one of you, and said, We will send men before us, and they shall search us out the land, and bring us word again by what way we must go up, and into what cities we shall come. And the saying pleased me well: and I took twelve men of you, one of a tribe: And they turned and went up into the mountain, and came unto the valley of Eshcol, and searched it out. And they took of the fruit of the land in their hands, and brought it down unto us, and brought us word again, and said, It is a good land which the LORD our God doth give us. Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

This is referring to Numbers 13, where it says;

Number 13:26-33 (KJV)
And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land. And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan. And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

God led the Children of Israel straight to the Promised Land. But they "...rebelled against the commandment of the Lord [their] God". The idea that God made them wander around for 40 years, or that His will was for them to wander in the wilderness, is a fallacy. Had they listened to Caleb (who was believing God), they would not have had to wander for 40 years. They CHOSE to listen to and believe the evil report and not believe that God had given them the land, and as a result of their willful rebellion, they wandered.

KingZzub · Mar 15, 2010

Pete,

Are you suggesting that if God commands us to do X and we do the exact opposite of X then we are out of God's will? Haven't you heard that everything that happens is God's will. If God commands us to do X, the fact is that Y, Z, A, B, P, Q, C, D, E, and F are all God's will, because ANYTHING you do is God's will...

sunlover1 · Mar 15, 2010

probinson said:
I wondered how long it would take before someone accused me of "twisting". 3 posts. That's gotta be some kind of record.

Twistin' the night away lol
I think that people genuinely believe that it's twisting.
After all, we've been taught since knee high that God
sent this 'torment' onto him to humble him.
But you're partly right, if we look closer and rightly divide:

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,

God gave the abundance of revelations to him.
Was it the devil who did like to see God's man exalted?
(Who exalts God's people? GOD does!
Who hates that?? ...........)

New International Version (©1984)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.New Living Translation (©2007)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up in honor.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
International Standard Version (©2008)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
King James Bible
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Messenger of God? No, messenger of satan...

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

And God said what? Did He say no?
Or did He say, "my grace is sufficient"?
IOW, you're all set already.

Say my kid is hungry.
I give him a burger and fries and
he comes back for a ten to add a steak
i might say, dude, you're all set. I have fed you!
I am not refusing to care for my child, but ..
the burger was sufficient!

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong
:bow:

IMO

God is good
He does not torment His children
SHEESH :doh:

HOW can anyone have ANY faith
if they're taught that their daddy
might send TORMENT to them?
I'd never pray for healing in that case!

JEsus always always always healed those who were...
oppressed by the devil (Scripture baby)

Be blessed!
:hug:

Faulty · Mar 15, 2010

Satan asked God to be allowed to 'sift Peter like wheat'. God said yes.

Not only is this sovereignty of God over the devil and his allowable works, but also allowing Peter to be tormented by Satan for a time. This is the only part of the scripture where we find Peter weeping bitterly.

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

FaultySurplus said:
Satan asked God to be allowed to 'sift Peter like wheat'. God said yes.

You state that with some degree of certainty, as if scripture substantiated what you're saying. But here is the account of what actually occurred;

Luke 22:31-32 (NASB)
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

The Amplified says it like this;

Luke 22:21-32 (AMP)
Simon, Simon (Peter), listen! Satan has asked excessively that [all of] you be given up to him [out of the power and keeping of God], that he might sift [all of] you like grain, But I have prayed especially for you [Peter], that your [own] faith may not fail; and when you yourself have turned again, strengthen and establish your brethren.

This doesn't even remotely resemble, "God said yes".

Faulty · Mar 15, 2010

probinson said:
You state that with some degree of certainty, as if scripture substantiated what you're saying. But here is the account of what actually occurred;

Luke 22:31-32 (NASB)
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

The Amplified says it like this;

Luke 22:21-32 (AMP)
Simon, Simon (Peter), listen! Satan has asked excessively that [all of] you be given up to him [out of the power and keeping of God], that he might sift [all of] you like grain, But I have prayed especially for you [Peter], that your [own] faith may not fail; and when you yourself have turned again, strengthen and establish your brethren.

This doesn't even remotely resemble, "God said yes".

Yea, it really does because Jesus said that 'when once you have turned again'. When does this happen? When the sifting is over. Didn't you read the whole story? He did indeed go through this sifting when he denied Him three times, and them was once again restored as Jesus had prayed.

You are bringing back all kinds of memories. I also had to read this verse (as well as the other we discussed) your way when I had contradicting WoF doctrine to support. I don't have to do that any longer.

nephilimiyr · Mar 15, 2010

probinson said:
You state that with some degree of certainty, as if scripture substantiated what you're saying. But here is the account of what actually occurred;

Luke 22:31-32 (NASB)
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

The Amplified says it like this;

Luke 22:21-32 (AMP)
Simon, Simon (Peter), listen! Satan has asked excessively that [all of] you be given up to him [out of the power and keeping of God], that he might sift [all of] you like grain, But I have prayed especially for you [Peter], that your [own] faith may not fail; and when you yourself have turned again, strengthen and establish your brethren.

This doesn't even remotely resemble, "God said yes".

Well, yeah God said yes, if He said no there was no reason for Jesus to pray for Peter's faith not to fail. I think God laughed at Satan and said go ahead but I'm going to strengthen him in his faith, and Satan, you're not going to be successful. What we have here is God allowing Peter's faith to be tested by Satan.

And here: "and when you yourself have turned again, strengthen and establish your brethren." This also shows that God said yes to Satan as Jesus is basically saying that after his faith has been tested and Peter victorious in it, Peter can then use this test of faith to teach his brothers.

KingZzub · Mar 15, 2010

You even have to infer that satan asked God for permission to sift Peter. satan wasn't asking God, he was demanding from Peter. It's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

FaultySurplus said:
Yea, it really does because Jesus said that 'when once you have turned again'. When does this happen? When the sifting is over. Didn't you read the whole story? He did indeed go through this sifting when he denied Him three times, and them was once again restored as Jesus had prayed.

So, do you believe that Satan made Peter deny Christ? A young Flip Wilson?

FaultySurplus said:
You are bringing back all kinds of memories. I also had to read this verse (as well as the other we discussed) your way when I had contradicting WoF doctrine to support. I don't have to do that any longer.

There is not a thing contradicting here. OTOH, you have cited suppositions up the wazoo to support your beliefs, and instead of addressing them, you resort to this type of nonsensical statement, which adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion, and serves only to discredit me personally.

nephilimiyr · Mar 15, 2010

KingZzub said:
You even have to infer that satan asked God for permission to sift Peter. satan wasn't asking God, he was demanding from Peter. It's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

What I find ridiculous is believeing that Satan would demand from us whether he can sift us or not. Why would you think Satan would demand such a thing from us, of course our answer is always going to be no. Because at this time during the ministry of Jesus Satan still had access to heaven, we can only assume that Satan was demanding from God the permission to sift Peter. Not only that but at that time Peter had no authority to grant or refuse Satan's demands.

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
Well, yeah God said yes, if He said no there was no reason for Jesus to pray for Peter's faith not to fail. I think God laughed at Satan and said go ahead but I'm going to strengthen him in his faith, and Satan, you're not going to be successful. What we have here is God allowing Peter's faith to be tested by Satan.

And here: "and when you yourself have turned again, strengthen and establish your brethren." This also shows that God said yes to Satan as Jesus is basically saying that after his faith has been tested and Peter victorious in it, Peter can then use this test of faith to teach his brothers.

But here's the thing, Neph... PETER denied Jesus. Do you believe that the devil made him do it?

The word "you" in that scripture is interesting also. One of the interesting things about the word "you" is that it can be both singular and plural. The Amplified Bible seems to indicate that Satan had asked to sift "...[all of] you...", meaning all of the disciples. This shows that Satan had "demanded permission" to sift all of the disciples.

This throws a monkey wrench into the belief that Peter denying Christ was somehow Satan sifting him. In fact, I think what Jesus was saying was that Satan had requested to sift all of them, or rather, divide or separate them, but Jesus was telling Peter to be the one to stand firm, and not allow this separation to occur, even though Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him.

IOW, I believe Peter denied Jesus by his own choice. I do not believe that the devil had anything to do with that. I also believe that the devil sought to bring division and separation (sifting) to the disciples ([all of] you) and Jesus was instructing Peter, once he got past his own failing, to strengthen and establish his brethern so as not to allow Satan to succeed in this desired sifting.

nephilimiyr · Mar 15, 2010

probinson said:
So, do you believe that Satan made Peter deny Christ? A young Flip Wilson?

I would say that somehow, however Satan ever does it, infused fear into Peter and also caused him to doubt his faith.

KingZzub · Mar 15, 2010

Really, neph? You think that satan was demanding of God - "Hey God, is it ok if I beat one of your children up?"

nephilimiyr · Mar 15, 2010

probinson said:
But here's the thing, Neph... PETER denied Jesus. Do you believe that the devil made him do it?

The word "you" in that scripture is interesting also. One of the interesting things about the word "you" is that it can be both singular and plural. The Amplified Bible seems to indicate that Satan had asked to sift "...[all of] you...", meaning all of the disciples. This shows that Satan had "demanded permission" to sift all of the disciples.

This throws a monkey wrench into the belief that Peter denying Christ was somehow Satan sifting him. In fact, I think what Jesus was saying was that Satan had requested to sift all of them, or rather, divide or separate them, but Jesus was telling Peter to be the one to stand firm, and not allow this separation to occur, even though Jesus knew that Peter would deny Him.

IOW, I believe Peter denied Jesus by his own choice. I do not believe that the devil had anything to do with that. I also believe that the devil sought to bring division and separation (sifting) to the disciples ([all of] you) and Jesus was instructing Peter, once he got past his own failing, to strengthen and establish his brethern so as not to allow Satan to succeed in this desired sifting.

So why did Jesus pray that Peter's faith doesn't fail him? Please don't skip over that question.

And if you want to go with "you" meaning all of you, or all the disciples, I seem to remember the word saying that during the arrest of Jesus they all ran, Peter stayed long enough to cut one of the guards ears off and I'm not sure what John was up to. Either way during the 3 days Jesus was dead, they all pretty much cowardered away. But I must say, the Amplified isn't always correct.

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
What I find ridiculous is believeing that Satan would demand from us whether he can sift us or not. Why would you think Satan would demand such a thing from us, of course our answer is always going to be no.

If Satan walks up to you and says, "Hey, can I sift you?", your answer is going to obviously be, "No."

But if you're sitting in church one morning, and a thought comes to you that says, "Those people in the pew on the other side of the church are wrong. I think we should do something about them", and you entertain that thought, and you act upon it, it won't be long until you unwittingly give in to Satan's "demand" to sift your church.

nephilimiyr said:
Because at this time during the ministry of Jesus Satan still had access to heaven, we can only assume that Satan was demanding from God the permission to sift Peter. Not only that but at that time Peter had no authority to grant or refuse Satan's demands.

Sure he did. We all do by our freewill.

We can either listen to the thought, imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, or we can follow after God.

In this one instance, Peter caved to Satan and denied Jesus. The purpose of this denial was to bring condemnation upon Peter, so that Satan could "sift" the disciples. But Jesus knew that Peter was going to do this, and so encouraged him to not allow it to happen, despite his own personal failings. IOW, Jesus was essentially saying to Peter, I've prayed that you will be used to prevent this sifting, even though you will deny me.

probinson · Mar 15, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
I would say that somehow, however Satan ever does it, infused fear into Peter and also caused him to doubt his faith.

That wasn't the question though.

If indeed Peter denying Jesus was Satan "sifting" him, then the implication is that the devil made Peter deny Jesus.

If true, that's a scary proposition. "The devil made me do it" is no longer a funny catch-phrase, but a reality that is controlled by whether or not God "allows" the devil to make you do something.

nephilimiyr · Mar 15, 2010

KingZzub said:
Really, neph? You think that satan was demanding of God - "Hey God, is it ok if I beat one of your children up?"

Well how is what I'm saying anymore different if I asked you if I could beat you up? Would you say, sure neph, put me in the hospitol? Maybe Satan was demanding this from an angel? I don't know, but I know beyond a certainty that Satan was not demanding anything from Peter.

Is it ever God's will that any of His children be tormented by Satan?

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