Natural Men Are Not Elected By God

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nobdysfool

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1) What does sin have to do with birth or sex?

Jesus' conception and birth had to be miraculous, or He would have been just another sinful man.

KCDAD said:
2) Perform miracles? Why? I thought the Gospel was a message.

A message confirmed by miracles.

KCDAD said:
3) Die? God can't die. God is immortal.

Jesus possessed a human body during His Incarnation. He Himself stated that no man takes His Life, He lays it down (physical death) and He takes it up again (resurrection). His human body literally died, was dead for 3 days, and then was raised again, literally. That is central to the Gospel, and a non-negotiable core article of faith. Paul himself stated that if there is no resurrection, there is no Gospel.

KCDAD said:
4) Apparently Jesus was never dead... he is eternally begotten not made since the beginning of time. Equal, one with the father... Even during the "three days" he was busy descending into hell...

The Bible does not say he descended into Hell. It says He preached to the souls in prison, which some interpret as Hell, but it is not the issue here. And Jesus DID physically die. He laid down His physical human life, as He was sent by the Father to do.

KCDAD said:
What did Jesus save you from by his death?

He moved those who are joined to Him beyond the penalty for sin which is death. By faith in Him, Paul said we are crucified with Christ. We died when He died, and by faith we arose when He arose in newness of life. When we are joined to Christ, by faith in Him, what He experienced, we are counted as having experienced. The reason we get baptized is to figuratively participate in His burial.

The death of Jesus and His subsequent burial and resurrection saved us from the penalty of our sins. Once we are joined with Christ, we are counted as having paid for our sins, by death, which is the penalty for sin. But since we are joined to Christ (and this only applies to those so joined in faith) we are raised from death, because there no longer remains a penalty to be paid. The penalty has been paid, and we who are in Christ have been moved beyond it.


Bottom line, is still this: A rejection of the virgin birth and the literal physical resurrection of Jesus is a denial of core Christian faith.
 
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JamesAH

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Jesus' conception and birth had to be miraculous, or He would have been just another sinful man.



A message confirmed by miracles.



Jesus possessed a human body during His Incarnation. He Himself stated that no man takes His Life, He lays it down (physical death) and He takes it up again (resurrection). His human body literally died, was dead for 3 days, and then was raised again, literally. That is central to the Gospel, and a non-negotiable core article of faith. Paul himself stated that if there is no resurrection, there is no Gospel.



The Bible does not say he descended into Hell. It says He preached to the souls in prison, which some interpret as Hell, but it is not the issue here. And Jesus DID physically die. He laid down His physical human life, as He was sent by the Father to do.



He moved those who are joined to Him beyond the penalty for sin which is death. By faith in Him, Paul said we are crucified with Christ. We died when He died, and by faith we arose when He arose in newness of life. When we are joined to Christ, by faith in Him, what He experienced, we are counted as having experienced. The reason we get baptized is to figuratively participate in His burial.

The death of Jesus and His subsequent burial and resurrection saved us from the penalty of our sins. Once we are joined with Christ, we are counted as having paid for our sins, by death, which is the penalty for sin. But since we are joined to Christ (and this only applies to those so joined in faith) we are raised from death, because there no longer remains a penalty to be paid. The penalty has been paid, and we who are in Christ have been moved beyond it.


Bottom line, is still this: A rejection of the virgin birth and the literal physical resurrection of Jesus is a denial of core Christian faith.

:thumbsup: :amen:
 
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_JJM

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What did Jesus save you from by his death?[/quote]

Here are my thoughts on salvation:

Jesus in the flesh was the manifest Word to the Jewish Nation. He was the living breathing embodiment of the commandments of God. (1 Jo 1:1,2) Knowledge of the commandments in the flesh caused me to realize I was a sinner in the flesh (Gen 3:7, 22; Rom 7:7). Put me next to Jesus in the flesh and compare, I fall short. Destroy him in the flesh (Christ crucified), my sin is instantly erased (Rom 3:22, 25; 4:15; 1 Jo 2:2). This picture is made clear by the admission of Gentiles into the earthly kingdom of the Jews (Eph 2:14-16). Without the Jewish standard, or 1st covenant man, there is no perceived fleshly requirement necessary to fullfill in order to call on the name of the Lord (Gal 2:16).

Jesus was resurrected into the new flesh of the coming Kingdom:

It is sown a natural body. It is raised a spiritual body. 1 Co 15:44

The standard is now in the resurrected form, in the spirit (1 Co 15:45-49). Now we must only believe in the spiritual man to be lawful (Rom 10:9), no longer trapped in a fleshly order for justification (Rom 7:4). If we believe in the spirit, we are justified 9 (Rom 4:5), and will be transformed into the very image of the man we now believe in, the resurrected Lord. (2 Co 3:18, 4:14) If we reject the man in the spirit, we are rejecting the word of God, and found in spiritual error, and will undergo spiritual destruction. (Heb 10:26-29)
 
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heymikey80

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I'm impressed by people who take a 4th century Canon as God's inerrant word when Colossians probably wasn't even written by Paul , who never met Jesus and never heard his teachings.
Don't use reason, quote the Catholic Canon.


I hope your point is to point out that there are no earlier texts than 170 AD, although this obviously refers to earlier texts...
My point is that the Muratorian Fragment points to a non-Catholic canon (though it is a catholic canon) pointing to books considered authentic at the time, among them Colossians.
 
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KCDAD

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My point is that the Muratorian Fragment points to a non-Catholic canon (though it is a catholic canon) pointing to books considered authentic at the time, among them Colossians.

Yeah, I got it... 170AD 140 years after Jesus died.

That's like you writing about your first hand experience with reconstruction after the Civil War.
 
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nobdysfool

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Yeah, I got it... 170AD 140 years after Jesus died.

That's like you writing about your first hand experience with reconstruction after the Civil War.

what is your problem???
 
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_JJM

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1 Cor 1:18,19 - For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Friend KCDAD, until you see Jesus as a Christian sees him, the message will seem like silliness. For a Christian, the message of the Gospel has taken hold of their spirit, and they boldly look into a light that an unbeliever can't see. The source from which this message emanates is the Holy Bible, therefore a Christian considers this book his standard for understanding life. Again, foolishness to a person that has not understood or rejected the Gospel, yet wisdom from God for a Christian.

As Christians, we make no apology for our Testament. It is the word of God.

You may see that Christians disagree in certain areas of doctrine, yet we all agree that we were sinners, separated from God, until we saw the truth of a possibility for reconciliation with God through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. You are a sinner KCDAD and require reconciliation with God, or you will face destruction. How do you propose to fix yourself? He has offered a solution in Jesus.

Die to yourself with us and you will begin to see the wisdom that we see, and that eternal life exists for those who believe in Jesus.
 
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467AIR

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The law is for spiritual children who need a baby sitter,

Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).


A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.
 
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sungaunga

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There is a huge disconnect here in Calvinistic doctrines of election and sovereignty when it is considered on a practical level and it defies logic and commom sense. It is far better to believe that God elects those who believe in Jesus Christ, who died so the whole world might be saved, no matter what their physical background.

but brother, if God elects those who are "going" to choose Christ, he's not the one ultimately electing. It is you! And I really do know how that can go right up against our fallen logic. We having never lived in a nation ruled by a sovereign, have a hard time of understanding what sovereignty really means.

No matter how you cut it, God is responsible for the belief of all the believers. Here, way before God created the universe, did he not know who would believe and who would not? You say yes. Did he go ahead and create the unbelievers as well as the believers anyway? Yes. Who is responsible? In the grand scheme of things, ultimately God is. Yes, we are culpable when it comes to denying God but God nevertheless created the deniers as well as the believers. I'm not trying to belittle our existence but news flash, it has always will and it will always be about the Glory of God. That's why everything in the universe exist. God created the unbelievers to demonstrate his anger, wrath, holiness and justice. God created the believers to demonstrate his love mercy and kindness. He is God and He can do whatever He wishes to do. It is a scary thought but Bible explicitly teaches that there are vessels of wrath created unto destruction as well as vessels of mercy.
 
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the particular baptist

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Um, its

Mathew 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

This verse is in the same context as people who think they are christians, who think they know Christ, and in reality only loved a christ they fabricated in their own imagination.

It is not.... do I know Christ, it is, does Christ know me !

Mathew 7:20-23 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'
 
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