Some people will believe anything

nephilimiyr said:

Ok, I'll back up and try and answer your question there. I notice that this forum's SOF is no longer stickied, I wonder why? But anyway it's not there anymore but the SOF stated that in order to be able to call yourself a member of this congregational forum, which is a big tent congregation, and freely debate here is if you believe that the gifts of the Spirit that are listed in 1 Cor. 12 are active today and are desireable in the life of every believer today.

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Ah yes. I remember the good ol' SoF, and I remember when it was being codified when I was on staff, I commented on how my dog could quite possibly fit the remarkably broad definitions contained in it.

nephilimiyr said:

You seem to equate it with dispise.

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Do me a favor; press Ctrl + F on your keyboard. In the find box that pops up in your browser, type the word "despise" (make sure you spell it correctly), and see if you can find where I used that word in this thread. I'll wait....

.......

Did you find it? No? That's because I never said it. I never even implied it.

So where did you come up with the idea that I equate being ashamed of someone to "despising" them? You seem to have missed what I'm trying to say completely.

I just don't see what's so difficult to understand. If a Baptist went over to the Baptist forum and constantly posted about how ashamed they were of Baptists, and how the things Baptists did constantly embarrassed them, and how idiotic and gullible Baptists are, and how they didn't even want to be called a Baptist anymore, it wouldn't take long before those people who are quite happy to call themselves "Baptist" would wonder what the heck this person was doing there. I would venture a guess that person wouldn't be posting in the Baptist forum for very long.

Such has NEVER been the case in this Charismatic forum. Anyone can say whatever disparaging things they want about Charismatics day in and day out, and it's all good.

I've come to expect this after nearly 5 years in this forum, but now newer people are simply asking the same questions I've wondered about for years.

AudioArtist said:

I suppose people like their Church services to be a buttoned-up affairs, even though there's no Biblical precedent for that kind of worship or celebratory behaviour. (And this coming from someone who is extremely shy in worship: in fact, I'm ashamed to say I'm too nervous to even out my hands out or up in the air 99% of the time. I can manage singing, but not clapping.) But that's ok. God looks at the heart - and some of us are more inclined to a quieter sort of expression.

I do think, though, that if the scenes of worship and praise from the Old Testament were put on youtube (or the New), they would offend many. As would any of the miracles in Acts (the handkerchiefs, the shadows, the disciples on pentecost...)

Or imagine this scene on youtube:

2 Chronicles 5: Then the temple of the Lord was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

It wouldn't really capture the glory of the event, would it? You can only really judge if you are there.

To be honest, though, I didn't actually watch the clip in the O.P. I just don't see the point in seeking out these little youtube snippets and getting very cross about them. I don't see how what happens in these threads has anything to do with true discernment or what it has to do with loving and warning the saints.

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Good points!

That of course is why I think there are so many kinds of churches....they tend to cater to the personality of the pastor, therefore, drawing people with like kind personalities. Who then in turn criticize everyone else who does it differently in their churches.

I suppose there were some maybe who were offended by all the noise made in the earlier scripture ref I gave from 1 Kings, but I don't see any leader standing on a podium later and apologizing, and asking the people to forgive them of their sin of worshiping too weirdly.

nephilimiyr said:

Well then why do you think it's so terrible for Jim to feel ashamed to call himself a charismatic. And I know you didn't use the word "terrible" but that is the sense I'm getting from what you are saying.

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I don't think it's terrible at all. I'm trying to figure out why on earth someone would hang out with people they're so ashamed of.

For example, we've had people that have left our church because they said they were ashamed of the way we allow freedom in our worship. No problem. But those people didn't continue to come to our church after that and tell us week after week how ashamed they were of us. They just left.

In this Charismatic forum, we hear constantly how gullible, how stupid, how idiotic, how deceived, how (insert your favorite epithet) Charismatics are.

That is what I think disciple-of-jesus was getting at in her earlier post. If it's really so bad, why associate with it at all?

JimB said:

And where is the scripture that promotes a Sunday free for all?

Fact is, the only scriptures in the New Testament that talk about how we should conduct ourselves in a public gathering is 1 Corinthians 14 and it is the Apostle’s order that we (as you want to put it) “button up” our services. He ordered, for example …
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints,


40 All things should be done decently and in order.
That’s pretty plain to any objective reader.

I don’t know how you see an Old Testament worship service, but if you think it was mass pandemonium you probably have not read all the laws governing how religious ceremonies were to be conducted. They were a bit more orderly than you might be comfortable with.

And you might want to watch the "snippet" before you comment on it.

~Jim

Changing one thing for the better is worth more than proving a thousand things are wrong.​

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Decently and in order according to whom???? You? Me? The Catholics? The Baptists? The Vinyardites? Who? What you may allow in your house I may not allow in mine. I don't allow pork in my house, however, in yours I'm sure you do. I don't consider you out of order in your house to eat pork. However, if you come to my house and expect to bring your pork with you, you are out of order....just as I would be out of order to go to your house and gather up all the pork and throw it in the outside trash.

probinson said:

I just don't see what's so difficult to understand. If a Baptist went over to the Baptist forum and constantly posted about how ashamed they were of Baptists, and how the things Baptists did constantly embarrassed them, and how idiotic and gullible Baptists are, and how they didn't even want to be called a Baptist anymore, it wouldn't take long before those people who are quite happy to call themselves "Baptist" would wonder what the heck this person was doing there. I would venture a guess that person wouldn't be posting in the Baptist forum for very long.

Such has NEVER been the case in this Charismatic forum. Anyone can say whatever disparaging things they want about Charismatics day in and day out, and it's all good.

I've come to expect this after nearly 5 years in this forum, but now newer people are simply asking the same questions I've wondered about for years.

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Actually I agree with you and share your frustration, but I only feel frustration about it, I don't take offense, at least not anymore. I used to. It's easy to take offense, it's harder not to. When I saw what the Aposotle Paul went through and when He said he does not take offense that not only gave me hope but was very enpowering to me.

I can still get very frustrated though. Unfortunately we are not a congregational forum like the Baptist forum or OBOB but we're actually labeled a faith group. And as I explained, this faith group is a very large tent. Because of that there is naturally going to be contention and strife.

FaultySurplus said:

The responses to the thread have been very discouraging and eye-opening to me. Things are farther gone than I have ever realized. People setting up a god in their own image, and after their own desires, then fighting to defend their idol.

On the plus side, I do now know my next step.

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Because people who make a god in their image embarrass themselves by dancing to a children's song. If I made a god in my image, he would be much like the rational and orderly services in most mainstream churches. No one would have to embarrass themselves and no one would have to act like a child. It would all be civilized. But that's IF I let my heart go to waste and turn to stone.

It's funny that you think people, in their natural state, would WANT to do this. The only way that I would be moved to do this is through the Holy Spirit.

No, the Bible says that we must be like little children to enter the kingdom. Children do crazy things. They have a wonderful imagination. They enjoy simple things. They like to try new things. Children can say a one sentence prayer and see awesome miracles.

Adults insist on order. They have it all "figured out". If it doesn't fit in with previous experience, he throws it out. When an adult prays, it's usually long-winded to make sure he's not offending God and has good doctrine.

nephilimiyr said:

I'm reppin this post too, I'm actually a tiny bit surprised that you agreed with me here but what you said actually was better than what I said, IMHO.

I just got done saying that as an Ex-Catholic I was taught to fold my hands in either prayer or worship, the raising of hands is strickly forbidden, in mass anyways. But I used to get the feeling that if I fold my hands instead of raise them like everybody else that some would see me as being religious and thinking I was better than them because of my formal way of worship. However, God spoke to me and told me it is a matter of the heart, nothing more, and that I shouldn't be consintrating on what others thought or were doing but to focus on him. So I say as long as God is the focus you should be free to worship him in whatever way makes you comfortable.

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I do feel that one should abide according to the rules of the house while in that particular house. There is many an AG that would not have a problem with someone jumping up and down in their worship to God in one of their services. There are also many who would have no clue what you were doing and it would indeed be disruptive. If it's done at the proper time, and it's obvious that the house allows it, then I say go for it.

Unfortunately, there are some who will be offended by the way someone says "amen" or "hallelujah" or how high or low one raises their hands in worship. All who are not saved will be separated from God because they refused HIM as Savior...."The way that person worshiped offended me" will not be an acceptable excuse.

probinson said:

I don't think it's terrible at all. I'm trying to figure out why on earth someone would hang out with people they're so ashamed of.

For example, we've had people that have left our church because they said they were ashamed of the way we allow freedom in our worship. No problem. But those people didn't continue to come to our church after that and tell us week after week how ashamed they were of us. They just left.

In this Charismatic forum, we hear constantly how gullible, how stupid, how idiotic, how deceived, how (insert your favorite epithet) Charismatics are.

That is what I think disciple-of-jesus was getting at in her earlier post. If it's really so bad, why associate with it at all?

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Sure, but Jim isn't exactly alone here. I think they are in the minority now but wouldn't you agree that at one time it was pretty equal. So to ask why he would hang out with people who he is ashamed of isn't quite accurate as there are people here who agree with him 100%. I agree with him maybe half the time???

Yes I saw what disciple-of-Jesus said and, again, I know it can be frustrating to come here and constantly have to deal with people putting down what you believe but unless they are outright flames they have a right to their opinions just as much as we do. Some people are going to look at that video and rail against it and put those people down while others are going to watch it and see nothing wrong with it or even wish they belonged to a church like that.

bobznew said:

Rather than casting broad, sweeping aspersions like this, why wouldn't it be better to answer the Scriptural question I posted? That would be edifying for everyone involved I think -- for us to do our best to come, together, into a more full understanding of Scriptural teachings regarding these things. I don't know what "your next step" is, but maybe trying to work together with your brethren to come more fully into God's will regarding worship, praise, the gifts of the Spirit, etc., would be a healthy place to start, rather then simply making comments like the above, which smack of spiritual elitism and haughtiness.

Now, I'll post the question again. Does a failure to adhere to the admonition regarding order in I Corinthians 14 automatically disqualify the people involved from having God's Spirit moving in their midst there? I really would like to hear from both viewpoints on this.

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Many who base their ministry on accusing others may conclude that they cannot afford to do as you've suggested. To do so would mean having to give up their flesh made ministry of accusation.

I believe the admonition regarding order in 1 Cor 14 is regarding "gifts of the Spirit" and the order in which one should operate in them. In my opinion there is no ref whatsoever regarding the "worship service" and how those who like to be exuberant may do so or those who like to be more quiet may do so.

FaultySurplus said:

R.I.P. Discernment, my old friend.

By the way, this is part of Morningstar ministries, where TB has been holding his recent "revival" meeting. If you've been watching his stuff lately, you'll recognize the stage.

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"Morningstar ministries" - developed from Maranatha Ministries ? No need to go further about "Some people will believe anything" . Many believed it twice - once in Maranatha and then again at Morningstar .

1 Corinthians 3:1-4

1. And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able:
3. for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
4. For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Appollos," are you not carnal?

And another says, "I am of charismatic." Who is of Christ?

Group hug.

probinson said:

I don't think it's terrible at all. I'm trying to figure out why on earth someone would hang out with people they're so ashamed of.

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Well, when you said this "How do you suppose that's going to make the rest of the team feel, who is quite happy to be identified, errors and all, as a TEAM? Can you understand why the other team members might have a problem with, and even feel betrayed by, their teammates who would refuse to identify with them because of their "shame"?" I took that as you saying you thought it was pretty bad/terrible as you likened what you and others were feeling as the same as being betrayed. I've been betrayed before by friends and the feeling is very terrible. Now you're saying you don't think it's terrible at all?

For example, we've had people that have left our church because they said they were ashamed of the way we allow freedom in our worship. No problem. But those people didn't continue to come to our church after that and tell us week after week how ashamed they were of us. They just left.

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Bad example because Jim and others have every right to call this place home as you and I. This isn't the Charismatic forum period, this is the Spirit-filled/Charismatic forum. And as I have explained already, it is a big tent.

In this Charismatic forum, we hear constantly how gullible, how stupid, how idiotic, how deceived, how (insert your favorite epithet) Charismatics are.

That is what I think disciple-of-jesus was getting at in her earlier post. If it's really so bad, why associate with it at all?

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Well, I know you refuse to do this but if those things offend you so much, if you guys think it is really so bad, then report the posts and let the moderator staff deal with it. Because you and others refuse to report, and this goes on on both sides, more times than not, the situation becomes worse because instead of the moderator staff dealing with it you all take matters in your own hands.

I normally don't view these types of threads because they totally turn me off. Usually by the time I enter the thread the damage has already been done. What gets me is, some of you willingly engage yourselves in such a way but then turn to blame CF or staff for all of the problems, even though you would rather respond to flames than report them.

I think Neph is trying to set a record for the most number of replies to a single post.

probinson said:

I think Neph is trying to set a record for the most number of replies to a single post.

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I seem to do that more often when I eat too much cheese. I think it clogs the arteries and oxygen cannot get to my brain. Besides when the moderators get here, then the fun begins. Kind of like dealing with security guards at the mall, who think they can run and catch a person on a stuntwood.

I'm over tired, I never went to sleep last night. I'm surviving on coffee fumes. :o

And watch it there blood...

bloodbought09 said:

This is Sparta!

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More like Spartacus, take a look at my avatar. One more wise crack about mall security guards and I'm sending him over to knock on your front door.