The "The Early Church Used the Greek O.T." thread

SummaScriptura · Mar 3, 2010

An English translation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text of Psalm 8:2:
Out of the mouth of babies and infants, you have established strength because of your foes, to still the enemy and the avenger. (ESV)

An English translation of the Greek (Septuagint) text of Psalm 8:2:
Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou perfected praise, because of thine enemies; that thou mightest put down the enemy and avenger. (Brenton)

Jesus quotes Psalm 8:2 in Matthew 21:16:
Have you never read, "'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise'?" (ESV)

simonthezealot · Mar 3, 2010

Summa, can you share alittle about the history difference between the 2 masoretic and greek?

my knowledge is week on this stuff but it is interesting.

SummaScriptura · Mar 3, 2010

An English translation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text of Isaiah 53:7-8:
Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living? (ESV)

An English translation of the Greek (Septuagint) text of Isaiah 53:7-8:
He was led as a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is dumb,
so he opens not his mouth.
In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
Who shall declare his generation?
for his life is taken away from the earth. (Brenton)

Luke quotes Isaiah 53:7-8 in Acts 8:32-33:
Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:
"Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth." (ESV)

SummaScriptura · Mar 3, 2010

simonthezealot said:
Summa, can you share alittle about the history difference between the 2 masoretic and greek?

my knowledge is week on this stuff but it is interesting.

Greek-speaking Jews, and the early Church, relied upon the Greek translation of the O.T. scriptures for teaching and edification.

This is evidenced in the New Testament as those writers more often quote from texts closer to the Greek O.T. than from texts closer to the Hebrew O.T.

The Hebrew O.T. we have in our Bibles today is called the Masoretic text. The Greek O.T. is usually referred to as the Septuagint or LXX.

For the first 400 years of the Church, the O.T. in use was based upon the Greek texts.

ebia · Mar 3, 2010

And the point is?

simonthezealot · Mar 3, 2010

SummaScriptura said:
Greek-speaking Jews, and the early Church, relied upon the Greek translation of the O.T. scriptures for teaching and edification.

This is evidenced in the New Testament as those writers more often quote from texts closer to the Greek O.T. than from texts closer to the Hebrew O.T.

The Hebrew O.T. we have in our Bibles today is called the Masoretic text. The Greek O.T. is usually referred to as the Septuagint or LXX.

For the first 400 years of the Church, the O.T. in use was based upon the Greek texts.

So from your studies does it seem that the (Septuagint- LXX-Greek) would be more accurate as well?

ebia · Mar 3, 2010

More accurate to what?

We have three main streams available - Masoritic (Hebrew), LXX (Greek) and that from the Dead Sea Scrolls (Hebrew) and the two Hebrew texts are more similar to each other than either is to the LXX which points towards the Hebrew texts generally being more accurate to the original. Also some of the changes in the LXX definitely look like later changes as ideas develop - eg some of the handful of texts that hint at resurrection of the dead in the Hebrew become much clearer references to that in the LXX. That makes no sense unless the the Hebrew represents the original and the Greek later development.

simonthezealot · Mar 3, 2010

ebia said:
More accurate to what?

Good point, i don't know i'm tired and got confused.

ebia · Mar 3, 2010

I had a go at guessing anyway and added above

simonthezealot · Mar 3, 2010

ebia said:
I had a go at guessing anyway and added above

Thanks good go at it, that helps me much thanks.

SummaScriptura · Mar 3, 2010

ebia said:
And the point is?

That the Greek O.T. text is the Church's tradtional text for the O.T., therefore its current neglect by Christians in the West is a break with the tradition of the Apostles and the early Church regarding its use.

simonthezealot · Mar 3, 2010

SummaScriptura said:
That the Greek O.T. text is the Church's tradtional text for the O.T., therefore its current neglect by Christians in the West is a break with the tradition of the Apostles and the early Church regarding its use.

Hows a guy get a hold of a hebrew text bible?

SummaScriptura · Mar 3, 2010

An English translation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text of Genesis 5:24:
Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

An English translation of the Greek (Septuagint) text of Genesis 5:24
Enoch was well-pleasing to God, and was not found, because God translated him.

Hebrews 11:5 refers to Genesis 5:24:
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Canaan-84 · Mar 4, 2010

SummaScriptura said:
That the Greek O.T. text is the Church's tradtional text for the O.T., therefore its current neglect by Christians in the West is a break with the tradition of the Apostles and the early Church regarding its use.

Don't Roman Catholics use the Greek O.T.? They use the deuterocanonical books which are included in the Greek OT.

SummaScriptura · Mar 4, 2010

An English translation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text of Genesis 47:31:
Then Israel bowed himself upon the head of his bed. (ESV)

An English translation of the Greek (Septuagint) text of Genesis 47:31:
And Israel did reverence, leaning on the top of his staff. (Brenton)

Genesis 47:31 is referred to by the writer of Hebrews 11:21:
By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. (ESV)

SummaScriptura · Mar 4, 2010

Canaan-84 said:
Don't Roman Catholics use the Greek O.T.? They use the deuterocanonical books which are included in the Greek OT.

The protocanonical books of Catholic Bibles are translated from the Hebrew texts for those books. Depending on the particular translation, the deuterocanonical books of Catholic Bibles are either translated from Latin or Greek texts for those books. It is the practice of Protestants and Catholics in the West to translate the core 39 books of the O.T. from Hebrew.

ebia · Mar 4, 2010

SummaScriptura said:
That the Greek O.T. text is the Church's tradtional text for the O.T., therefore its current neglect by Christians in the West is a break with the tradition of the Apostles and the early Church regarding its use.

Or a return to a more authentic text to which the early church did not have access but earlier Israel did - Israel, after all, is also part of the tradition.

Canaan-84 · Mar 4, 2010

SummaScriptura said:
The protocanonical books of Catholic Bibles are translated from the Hebrew texts for those books. Depending on the particular translation, the deuterocanonical books of Catholic Bibles are either translated from Latin or Greek texts for those books. It is the practice of Protestants and Catholics in the West to translate the core 39 books of the O.T. from Hebrew.

I see, it's strange though that they use the deuterocanonical books that were included in the Greek OT, but they don't use it as a translation. So, only the Orthodox Catholic Church still uses the Greek translations?

ebia · Mar 4, 2010

Canaan-84 said:
Don't Roman Catholics use the Greek O.T.? They use the deuterocanonical books which are included in the Greek OT.

No. Almost all western translations, including Catholic ones, translate from the Hebrew/Aramaic texts except where the LXX definitely seems to be the more plausible original. Only the deuterocanonical books themselves are translated from the Greek, with Daniel and Ester usually indicating with italics or similar the passages that are greek only.

Eastern Orthodox prefer to go with the LXX, but there has been a lack of good translations into western languages so that's not always practical.

SummaScriptura · Mar 4, 2010

An English translation of the Hebrew (Masoretic) text of Isaiah 61:1-2:
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
to proclaim the year of the LORDs favor. (ESV)

An English translation of the Greek (Septuagint) text of Isaiah 61:1-2:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me;
he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor,
to heal the broken in heart,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and recovery of sight to the blind;
to declare the acceptable year of the Lord. (Brenton)

Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1-2 in Luke 4:18-19:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lords favor. (ESV)

In this example, the Lord Jesus quotes elements which are unique to both the Greek and Hebrew texts of Isaiah, and drops at least one line common to both.

The "The Early Church Used the Greek O.T." thread

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