LDS Tithing is not forced, however...

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
I did not ask you to name names. Are the disobedient righteous? Are the obedient wicked?

OK then. I'd say the wicked are those who love wickedness more than they love God, and the unrighteous are those who love unrighteousness more than they love God. And I see no significant difference between the two.

Phoebe Ann said:
If the commandment is to tithe, what is the excuse for disobedience? You instead present issues unrelated to disobedience to the law of tithing. Instead, you present wrong motives for obedience.

No. What I bring up is incredibly pertinent, and in direct response to your question. The OP charges that those who do not tithe will be burned at his coming. That is an all-inclusive claim. It includes both those who are under commandment to pay tithes, and those who are not (because they do not have the law). As I have shown that the payment of tithes is not the factor that tips the burned-at-his-coming scales, and as you have suggested that it is a black-and-white issue, I have opined that it is not, and employed simple illustrations to support that opinion. How is that not pertinent?

Phoebe Ann said:
Is it impossible for some to keep the commandments of God?

Again, off-topic, but I respond anyway. It is impossible for a man to keep a commandment in faith, which commandment he neither knows nor comprehends.

superwimp · Feb 26, 2010

Moodshadow said:
Tithing is not an exclusively LDS commandment. According to Malachi, it's incumbent upon all believers.

Hello moodshadow,

I'm not necesarily disagreeing, however it should be pointed out since you are referring to a jewish prophet that the tithing he was referring to is the tithing taught within the Jewish system of beliefs. The LDS call what they do "tithing". The tithing that they teach may or may not (it doesn't) resemble the tithing that Malachi was referring to.

Moodshadow · Feb 26, 2010

superwimp said:
Hello moodshadow,

I'm not necesarily disagreeing, however it should be pointed out since you are referring to a jewish prophet that the tithing he was referring to is the tithing taught within the Jewish system of beliefs. The LDS call what they do "tithing". The tithing that they teach may or may not (it doesn't) resemble the tithing that Malachi was referring to.

You are correct about that, of course. But tithing is not commonly done in kind much any more - at least not in our culture - and it has been a practice among believers since Old Testament times, because we know that Abram paid his tithes to Melchizedek. All I was saying is that Mormons aren't the only ones for whom it is a common practice.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
Phoebe Ann said:

I did not ask you to name names. Are the disobedient righteous? Are the obedient wicked?

Click to expand...

OK then. I'd say the wicked are those who love wickedness more than they love God, and the unrighteous are those who love unrighteousness more than they love God. And I see no significant difference between the two.

I'm so sorry that my questions weren't clear. I'll try again. Can a person choose disobedience to God and still receive the blessing of not being burned at Christ's coming?

SoftSpoken said:
No. What I bring up is incredibly pertinent, and in direct response to your question. The OP charges that those who do not tithe will be burned at his coming. That is an all-inclusive claim. It includes both those who are under commandment to pay tithes, and those who are not (because they do not have the law).

That's amazing! Now you want to talk about non-LDS and it is generally only LDS who read the Doctrine and Covenants. And this thread is about the LDS teaching about tithing that the members receive! Why do you want to change the topic of the thread?

SoftSpoken said:
As I have shown that the payment of tithes is not the factor that tips the burned-at-his-coming scales, and as you have suggested that it is a black-and-white issue, I have opined that it is not, and employed simple illustrations to support that opinion. How is that not pertinent?

Do you believe that obedience to commandments is a gray area...that the commandments are really just suggestions? And if you don't take the suggestion and do as it instructs, your bishop has no right to deny you a temple recommend?

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
I'm so sorry that my questions weren't clear. I'll try again. Can a person choose disobedience to God and still receive the blessing of not being burned at Christ's coming?

I see. No problem. My answer is: possibly.

Phoebe Ann said:
That's amazing! Now you want to talk about non-LDS and it is generally only LDS who read the Doctrine and Covenants. And this thread is about the LDS teaching about tithing that the members receive! Why do you want to change the topic of the thread?

Well, in all fairness to both of us, it hasn't been very clear, at least not to me, what specific group of people we've been talking about this whole time. If we are both deciding that we are confining our responses to LDS members only, that's dandy with me.

LOL, now I've forgotten the question. :doh:

Phoebe Ann said:
Do you believe that obedience to commandments is a gray area...that the commandments are really just suggestions?

Not at all. But I don't believe that the dispensing of justice and mercy will be as black and white as we humans are prone to make it. So when you ask about a person who does not pay his tithing (speaking only of an LDS member of the Church with a testimony of the principle of tithing) getting burned or not at Christ's coming, I am saying that I don't know if disobedience to that one commandmentdisobedience though it iswill qualify him for that fate. But, even though I cannot say for sure, I believe that he would NOT be.

Phoebe Ann said:
And if you don't take the suggestion and do as it instructs, your bishop has no right to deny you a temple recommend?

I'm sorry, you've confused me here. Could you rephrase this question based on my answer to your question immediately above?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
Not at all. But I don't believe that the dispensing of justice and mercy will be as black and white as we humans are prone to make it. So when you ask about a person who does not pay his tithing (speaking only of an LDS member of the Church with a testimony of the principle of tithing) getting burned or not at Christ's coming, I am saying that I don't know if disobedience to that one commandment—disobedience though it is—will qualify him for that fate. But, even though I cannot say for sure, I believe that he would NOT be.

I'm sorry, you've confused me here. Could you rephrase this question based on my answer to your question immediately above?

From what you are saying, the commandments are not mandatory and the bishop's list of temple recommend questions should not really determine if a person may have the recommend. They are just there for guidance. After all, some of the church members cannot possibly be more worthy than others; the bishop should be dispensing justice and mercy.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
I see. No problem. My answer is: possibly.

Well, in all fairness to both of us, it hasn't been very clear, at least not to me, what specific group of people we've been talking about this whole time. If we are both deciding that we are confining our responses to LDS members only, that's dandy with me.

Surely you jest! LDS tithing couldn't mean non-LDS tithing, could it?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

Moodshadow said:
Tithing is not an exclusively LDS commandment. According to Malachi, it's incumbent upon all believers.

Are all of the commandments in the Old Testament incumbent upon believers in Christ?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
Again, off-topic, but I respond anyway. It is impossible for a man to keep a commandment in faith, which commandment he neither knows nor comprehends.

Are there LDS, other than infants and toddlers, and possibly learning disabled, who haven't been told about tithing?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

Ran77 said:
In LDS doctrine, this burning is a literal fire. So, if your complaint is that I assumed you meant literal fire when you didn't - then I have only misrepresented your understanding by crediting you with understanding it better than you do.

Of course, what is really going on here is that you posted quotes without making any commentary yourself and then want to complain how I am misrepresenting you. Without any commets by you, there is no you to misrepresent.

You obviously choose to ignore my personal comments. So be it.

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Are there LDS, other than infants and toddlers, and possibly learning disabled, who haven't been told about tithing?

Adults who have also been born in the covenant, but who have from birth also been mentally incapacitated to the point that they have no adequate comprehension of right and wrong would be included. But my comment was made prior to your clarification that you were only speaking of LDS folks, so I was talking more about those who never know the law that I was about members of the LDS church who are never accountable.

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Surely you jest! LDS tithing couldn't mean non-LDS tithing, could it?

I' sorry, I dont know what you're asking here.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
I' sorry, I dont know what you're asking here.

Maybe you've read "Unorthodox Theology > Latter Day Saints > LDS Tithing is not forced, however..." Am I mistaken? I usually look at the title of the thread in order to find my way around.

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
From what you are saying, the commandments are not mandatory

No Phoebe. That's not what I said at all. I said they are mandatory, or rather obedience to them is mandatory, but that I do not believe a person will be burned for disobeying that one commandment.

Phoebe Ann said:
and the bishop's list of temple recommend questions should not really determine if a person may have the recommend. They are just there for guidance. After all, some of the church members cannot possibly be more worthy than others; the bishop should be dispensing justice and mercy.

It would really help me if we could leave the temple recommend topic out of this. I don't see how it pertains to one's being burned at Christ's coming in relation to the payment of tithes. You could start another thread about tithes (or commandment keeping in general) and temple recommends, if you like.

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
I' sorry, I dont know what you're asking here.

Phoebe Ann said:
Maybe you've read "Unorthodox Theology > Latter Day Saints > LDS Tithing is not forced, however..." Am I mistaken? I usually look at the title of the thread in order to find my way around.

Why is the sarcasm necessary? I'm sorry if you think it was a simple question. I don't know what you are asking. Could you please rephrase?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
No Phoebe. That's not what I said at all. I said they are mandatory, or rather obedience to them is mandatory, but that I do not believe a person will be burned for disobeying that one commandment.

Ya hafta wonder why Joseph Smith worded it that way!

SoftSpoken said:
It would really help me if we could leave the temple recommend topic out of this.

It would help you do what?

SoftSpoken said:
I don't see how it pertains to one's being burned at Christ's coming in relation to the payment of tithes. You could start another thread about tithes (or commandment keeping in general) and temple recommends, if you like.

Well, it all depends on a lot of things. If tithing is a mandatory law for entrance into the temple or the celestial kingdom, one might as well be burned at his coming because LDS never take burning literally, do they?

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
Why is the sarcasm necessary?

I'm sorry.

SoftSpoken said:
I'm sorry if you think it was a simple question. I don't know what you are asking. Could you please rephrase?

Are LDS tithing and non-LDS tithing the same thing? Does God want you to pay the tithe to the Presbyterian church down the street? Or does God expect the Presbyterian to pay a tithe to the LDS church? Do you know what this thread is about? I sure don't know how to make this sound non-sarcastic to you and have you understand what I'm saying. It looks plain as day to me. How do I make it plain for you?

Katya · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
How can you have an issue with it? Don't you have a testimony that the LDS church is true? If the LDS church is true, the LDS commandments are, too.

When I was a teenager, someone in my ward had said that if you pay your tithing, you get what you want. Then they quoted D&C 82:10 to back them up.

D&C 82:10
I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Since then, I didn't want to pay my tithing because it felt like I was expecting something from it.

Katya · Feb 26, 2010

Ran77 said:
Katya,

I have something to add.

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

Please consider what God is wanting for us to get out of this message. I don't feel that it is a message of do what I say or die a fiery death. This is a message about the state of our hearts. In order for Christ to return, the Earth must be cleansed of all evil. The millenium will begin and Christ will personally reign on Earth. That cannot happen if great wickedness exists here. A purging is necessary.

The surrounding verses discuss the wicked and the proud. I believe that these specific words are chosen for a reason. Now consider what is being asked of the saints - to sacrifice and tithe. Those who sacrifice and tithe will be humble they will have thankful and giving hearts. These are the very traits we will need to have to meet our Savior in the flesh. Don't you agree?

Does it seem reasonable to you, that if you pay your tithing the sacrifice that you make will make you more humble; sacrifice can make your more thankful for the blessings that you do have, and the test of faith that it represents is helping you be more obedient. Especially, if it's something you don't want to do.

Maybe it would help your struggle with it if you consider it an "investment in your spiritual growth." I hope that helps some.

Thank you Ran, that helps alot.

SoftSpoken · Feb 27, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
I'm sorry.

Are LDS tithing and non-LDS tithing the same thing? Does God want you to pay the tithe to the Presbyterian church down the street? Or does God expect the Presbyterian to pay a tithe to the LDS church? Do you know what this thread is about? I sure don't know how to make this sound non-sarcastic to you and have you understand what I'm saying. It looks plain as day to me. How do I make it plain for you?

Well, in another thread you told me that you couldn't read my mind. I say now that I can't read yours. I answered your question. Care to respond in kind, or am I condemned to play guessing games until one or both of us loeses interest? If you wanted to make it plain, you would do so immediately.

LDS Tithing is not forced, however...

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