LDS Tithing is not forced, however...

Rescued One · Feb 25, 2010

3 Ne 25:1 the day cometh that shall burn as an oven

The earth and all its inhabitants, save eight, were once destroyed by water. When the Lord comes again, the wicked will again be destroyedthis time by fire. Hereby the earth is baptized both by water and by fire. When the scripture says the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, this is not figurative but literal, for the wicked will be burned, every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth (DC 101:24-25).

The keys to avoid this burning are tithing and temple work, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning (DC 64:23-24).
http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm

:o

illyume · Feb 25, 2010

Yes.

Though it may be an oversimplification. The general idea, if I'm not mistaken, is that wickedness will be purged from the Earth, and the willingness to follow the commandment of tithing is often cited as an example of the sort of thing required to avoid being purged in that day of burning. (My wording wasn't the greatest there, sorry.)

It might be significant, though, that the passage states "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming." The way this is structured, it does not necessarily state, or even imply, that "he that is NOT tithed SHALL be burned at his coming."

It would be helpful to your argument if you supplied a passage stating something to the effect of that second one. If such a passage of scripture exists. I'm looking myself for one right now.

Rescued One · Feb 25, 2010

illyume said:
Yes.
Though it may be an oversimplification. The general idea, if I'm not mistaken, is that wickedness will be purged from the Earth, and the willingness to follow the commandment of tithing is often cited as an example of the sort of thing required to avoid being purged in that day of burning. (My wording wasn't the greatest there, sorry.)

It might be significant, though, that the passage states "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming." The way this is structured, it does not necessarily state, or even imply, that "he that is NOT tithed SHALL be burned at his coming."

It would be helpful to your argument if you supplied a passage stating something to the effect of that second one. If such a passage of scripture exists. I'm looking myself for one right now.

I have no idea why a person would use microscopic text. However, your comments aren't very convincing. "He that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming" certainly DOES imply that the he that is not tithed shall be burned at his coming.

The keys to avoid this burning are tithing and temple work, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning (DC 64:23-24).
http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm

illyume · Feb 25, 2010

Phoebe, perhaps it does seem to imply such, but it most definitely does not dictate such.
(My apologies for the presumptuous statement I made in my first post on this thread)

It's a rule of if/then statements and contraposition, often taught in mathematics classes.

Considering the followment, we have in the scripture, "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming," simplified:

If a person is tithed, then he shall not be burned.

Taking this to be true, the contrapositive is also true:

If a person is burned, he was not tithed.

However, it is incorrect to make either of the following statements, based solely upon the original statement:

If a person is not tithed, he shall be burned. (false)
If a person was not burned, he was tithed. (false)

A web search of the term 'contraposition' should help further explain this principle, if necessary.

Rescued One · Feb 25, 2010

illyume said:
Phoebe, perhaps it does seem to imply such, but it most definitely does not dictate such.
(My apologies for the presumptuous statement I made in my first post on this thread)

It's a rule of if/then statements and contraposition, often taught in mathematics classes.

Considering the followment, we have in the scripture, "he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming," simplified:

If a person is tithed, then he shall not be burned.

Taking this to be true, the contrapositive is also true:

If a person is burned, he was not tithed.

However, it is incorrect to make either of the following statements, based solely upon the original statement:

If a person is not tithed, he shall be burned. (false)
If a person was not burned, he was tithed. (false)

A web search of the term 'contraposition' should help further explain this principle, if necessary.

I have a better idea! Read the Gospel Doctrine lesson again and then read D&C 64:24:

24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.

The burning is coming. Verse 23 tells you how to avoid it.

By this principle (tithing) the loyalty of the people of this Church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. By this principle it shall be seen whose hearts are set on doing the will of God and keeping his commandments, thereby sanctifying the land of Zion unto God, and who are opposed to this principle and have cut themselves off from the blessings of Zion. There is a great deal of importance connected with this principle, for by it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful. In this respect it is as essential as faith in God, as repentance of sin, as baptism for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. (1939), p. 225...

The observance of the law of tithing is voluntary. I can pay my tithing or not, as I choose. It is a matter of choice with me, whether I will do it or not do it; but, feeling as I do, loyal to the Church, loyal to its interests, believing that it is right and just to observe the law of tithing I do observe it—on the same principle that I think it is right for me to observe the law of repentance, and of baptism, for the remission of sins.
Gospel Doctrine, p. 232–33
LDS.org - Lessons Chapter - Obedience to the Law of Tithing

Why must a person pay a full tithe in order to advance in the priesthood, go on a mission, marry in the temple, or receive a temple recommend?

...“By this principle [of tithing] the loyalty of the people of this church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939], pp. 225–26).
LDS.org - Lessons Chapter - Tithingâ€”A Spiritual Test

illyume · Feb 25, 2010

Well, there we go. You now have fixed the logical flaw that was there in the first post, and have presented a much better argument, one that I don't care to disagree with, because your point is true. A person must follow the principle and pay a full tithe in the Mormon church in order to receive the priesthood, and advance in it, to serve a mission, or attend the temple. Tithing is a test of the saints' loyalty, as are so many of the commandments Christ has given.

Perhaps I'm incorrect in some way, for not seeing this as a bad thing?

Rescued One · Feb 25, 2010

illyume said:
Well, there we go. You now have fixed the logical flaw that was there in the first post, and have presented a much better argument, one that I don't care to disagree with, because your point is true. A person must follow the principle and pay a full tithe in the Mormon church in order to receive the priesthood, and advance in it, to serve a mission, or attend the temple. Tithing is a test of the saints' loyalty, as are so many of the commandments Christ has given.

Perhaps I'm incorrect in some way, for not seeing this as a bad thing?

Oh, come on! Women must pay a tithe and they never get the priesthood. Now back to the Doctrine and Covenants' very harsh words:

"for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming."

Do you not think that would scare a few people into paying their tithes?

illyume · Feb 25, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Oh, come on! Women must pay a tithe and they never get the priesthood.

This thread's not about that, and I won't attempt to address such a complaint here.

Phoebe Ann said:
Now back to the Doctrine and Covenants' very harsh words:

"for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming."

I already answered this. It's not as harsh as you seem to think.

Phoebe Ann said:
Do you not think that would scare a few people into paying their tithes?

Oh, I do think it would, and has. And they'd be just as incorrect in their assessment of that line as someone that was criticizing the Mormon church for being unduly harsh because of the line.

---

I'm feeling like that's as much as I can constructively give on this subject, as the thread stands. So, unless something seriously changes in the nature of it, I'm gonna duck out of this one again.

SoftSpoken · Feb 25, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
3 Ne 25:1 the day cometh that shall burn as an oven

The earth and all its inhabitants, save eight, were once destroyed by water. When the Lord comes again, the wicked will again be destroyed—this time by fire. Hereby the earth is baptized both by water and by fire. When the scripture says the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, this is not figurative but literal, for the wicked will be burned, every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth (DC 101:24-25).

The keys to avoid this burning are tithing and temple work, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning (DC 64:23-24).
http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm

:o

I don't know who writes the material on gospeldoctrine.com, but I don't agree at all with their conclusion (bolded above). Not at all. This is a very good example of taking a truth and radicalizing it until it becomes false. Scriptures are best understood when taken both in their immediate context, and in context of the Gospel as a whole. And the gospel as a whole makes it clear, at least to me, that the wicked will be burned at his coming. The verse cited above in D&C 64 does not say that those who don't pay tithing and don't do temple work will be burned, but that those who pay their tithes won't be. And the verse immediately following makes very clear who will be burned. This is the verse in full context:

"Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon." (D&C 64:23-24)

Again, taking one verse out of the scriptures—no, out of the sphere of Gospel truth—and trying to imply that it is saying the converse of what it does say often distorts the truth of it, making it of no worth. As well as does taking one complete thought, which spans multiple verses, and only quoting part of it.

Rescued One · Feb 25, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
I don't know who writes the material on gospeldoctrine.com, but I don't agree at all with their conclusion (bolded above). Not at all. This is a very good example of taking a truth and radicalizing it until it becomes false. Scriptures are best understood when taken both in their immediate context, and in context of the Gospel as a whole. And the gospel as a whole makes it clear, at least to me, that the wicked will be burned at his coming. The verse cited above in D&C 64 does not say that those who don't pay tithing and don't do temple work will be burned, but that those who pay their tithes won't be. And the verse immediately following makes very clear who will be burned. This is the verse in full context:

"Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon." (D&C 64:23-24)

Well, I asked on another thread who are the wicked and who are the righteous according to LDS teachings and I have not received an answer.

Although someone said "...the disobedient are the unrighteous."

Are the unrighteous and the wicked the same people or is there a difference?

Doctrine and Covenants 29
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

SoftSpoken said:
Again, taking one verse out of the scriptures—no, out of the sphere of Gospel truth—and trying to imply that it is saying the converse of what it does say often distorts the truth of it, making it of no worth. As well as does taking one complete thought, which spans multiple verses, and only quoting part of it.

If a person disobeys one of God's laws, does he forfeit the blessing upon with the law is predicated? So if he pays his tithe, he will not be burned. If he doesn't pay his tithe, are you saying that he still won't be burned(figuratively or literally)?

SoftSpoken · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
Well, I asked on another thread who are the wicked and who are the righteous according to LDS teachings and I have not received an answer.

Determining who is and who is not wicked lies outside the bounds of this thread, does it not? This thread treats specifically the charge that those who do not pay tithing will be burned at Christ's coming. It has been presented that the LDS position is that they will. I have shown how the substantiating verse for that claim was clearly taken out of context, and that the wicked are burned, not those who merely do not pay tithing. See my response below...

Phoebe Ann said:
If a person disobeys one of God's laws, does he forfeit the blessing upon with the law is predicated?

Yes. But when, and to what extent? There must be an immediate forfeiture of blessings when someone disobeys God—justice demands it. But mercy has claim on us because of the atonement of Christ, and so judgment—especially ultimate judgment—may be delayed when we sin. Thus God sends his rain on the wicked and the righteous, offering us all in mercy and longsuffering the opportunity to repent and obey again.

Phoebe Ann said:
So if he pays his tithe, he will not be burned. If he doesn't pay his tithe, are you saying that he still won't be burned(figuratively or literally)?

I don't believe that it is consistent with the composite of the Gospel to say that a man won't be burned just because he pays his tithing, any more than it is likewise consistent to say that a man will be burned just because he doesn't. How many men pay their alms or tithing to be seen of men? How many do the right thing outwardly for the wrong reasons inwardly? And conversely, how many do not do the right thing because they have no knowledge of what is required of them? How many do the best they know how with the truth they possess? Is it not a matter of faith that determines whether or not a work is dead or living? I guess I'm offering that to us mortals, the determination is not so cut-and-dry as we might think, which is precisely why I have such issue with gospeldoctrine.com's conclusion.

Katya · Feb 26, 2010

Does that mean I'm gonna burn, as I have an issue with paying tithing.

But i'm working on it.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

Katya said:
Does that mean I'm gonna burn, as I have an issue with paying tithing.

But i'm working on it.

How can you have an issue with it? Don't you have a testimony that the LDS church is true? If the LDS church is true, the LDS commandments are, too.

Moodshadow · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
How can you have an issue with it? Don't you have a testimony that the LDS church is true? If the LDS church is true, the LDS commandments are, too.

Tithing is not an exclusively LDS commandment. According to Malachi, it's incumbent upon all believers.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

SoftSpoken said:
Determining who is and who is not wicked lies outside the bounds of this thread, does it not? This thread treats specifically the charge that those who do not pay tithing will be burned at Christ's coming. It has been presented that the LDS position is that they will. I have shown how the substantiating verse for that claim was clearly taken out of context, and that the wicked are burned, not those who merely do not pay tithing.

I did not ask you to name names. Are the disobedient righteous? Are the obedient wicked?

SoftSpoken said:
See my response below...

Yes. But when, and to what extent? There must be an immediate forfeiture of blessings when someone disobeys Godjustice demands it. But mercy has claim on us because of the atonement of Christ, and so judgmentespecially ultimate judgmentmay be delayed when we sin. Thus God sends his rain on the wicked and the righteous, offering us all in mercy and longsuffering the opportunity to repent and obey again.

No, people are not told that all punishment is immediate. In fact being burned at his coming is not immediate for every LDS.

Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
Mosiah 2:38

SoftSpoken said:
I don't believe that it is consistent with the composite of the Gospel to say that a man won't be burned just because he pays his tithing, any more than it is likewise consistent to say that a man will be burned just because he doesn't.

I believe you told us that earlier.

SoftSpoken said:
How many men pay their alms or tithing to be seen of men? How many do the right thing outwardly for the wrong reasons inwardly? And conversely, how many do not do the right thing because they have no knowledge of what is required of them? How many do the best they know how with the truth they possess? Is it not a matter of faith that determines whether or not a work is dead or living? I guess I'm offering that to us mortals, the determination is not so cut-and-dry as we might think, which is precisely why I have such issue with gospeldoctrine.com's conclusion.

If the commandment is to tithe, what is the excuse for disobedience? You instead present issues unrelated to disobedience to the law of tithing. Instead, you present wrong motives for obedience.

Obedience in the context of the gospel of Jesus Christ means to comply with God's will, to live in accordance with his teachings and the promptings of his Spirit, and to keep his commandments. Disobedience means to do anything less, whether it be to follow Satan and his will, to live in accordance with one's own selfish wants and desires, or to be a "slothful" person who must be "compelled in all things" (D&C 58:26).

Part of God's purpose in designing mortal life for his children was to "prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them" (Abr. 3:25; cf. D&C 98:14). Passing such a test is necessary for one to progress to become like God because he, himself, lives in accordance with law and principles of justice (Alma 42:22-26; see Godhood). Thus, obedience to divine law is essential to eternal progression, and those who live obediently in this life will "have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abr. 3:26).
Obedience by Cheryl Brown
Obedience

Is it impossible for some to keep the commandments of God?

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
1 Nephi 3:7

Ran77 · Feb 26, 2010

For Katya's benefit.

Phoebe Ann said:
3 Ne 25:1 the day cometh that shall burn as an oven

The earth and all its inhabitants, save eight, were once destroyed by water. When the Lord comes again, the wicked will again be destroyedthis time by fire. Hereby the earth is baptized both by water and by fire. When the scripture says the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, this is not figurative but literal, for the wicked will be burned, every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth (DC 101:24-25).

The keys to avoid this burning are tithing and temple work, Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning (DC 64:23-24).
http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/3Nephi25.htm

:o

CHAPTER 25

At the Second Coming the proud and wicked shall be burned as stubbleElijah shall return before that great and dreadful dayCompare Malachi 4. [A.D. 34]

1 For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

The first quote, in context, deals with the events prior to the second coming, in which at the very last Christ returns and the wicked are burned as stubble. This is not a message about tithing. Including it as being pertinent to whether a person pays tithing or not is creative to say the least. But not creative in a good, expressing LDS doctrine, sort of way.

D&C 101: 22-26

22 Behold, it is my will, that all they who call on my name, and worship me according to mine everlasting gospel, should gather together, and stand in holy places;

23 And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together.

24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed;

25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth.

26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face.

This too speaks of the events prior to the Second Coming and there will be a literal burning of the wicked. As it happens, I have researched what the prophets have had to say concerning the events leading up to the second coming and while the Saints may be responsible for beginning a gathering of Zion, it will not be a situation where only the LDS are permitted to dwell there. It is fully expected that people of many faiths will seek refuge from the evil that will be rampant during that time. These will be believers of Christ and God. They, along with the Saints, will be spared this second destruction.

D&C 64: 22-25

22 And after that day, I, the Lord, will not hold any guilty that shall go with an open heart up to the land of Zion; for I, the Lord, require the hearts of the children of men.

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

24 For after today cometh the burningthis is speaking after the manner of the Lordfor verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in eBabylon.

25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today.

Again, the burning prior to Christ's return is being discussed. In verse 22, it states how any who go up to the land of Zion will not be found guilty. Several of the prophets have spoken directly about this forthcoming time and indicate that we will provide refuge for those seeking peace. Obviously, these are they that have been humbled and come willingly. These will be the repentent, although that does not mean they will choose to join the Church.

There is a very large difference between the wicked and proud that are to be burned up at this time and someone who doesn't necessarily believe in tithing. What I expect, is that people who come to Zion and ask for entry there, will probably have to agree to live by the set of laws that we establish. And while that will not require membership it could include some form of tithing - which would not be too different from the taxation that all municipal bodies use to pay for infrastructure and military and what have you.

The bottom line is that the LDS doctrine does not include a belief that fiery death awaits those that are not living the law of tithing. That is a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

Ran77 said:
The bottom line is that the LDS doctrine does not include a belief that fiery death awaits those that are not living the law of tithing. That is a misrepresentation of our beliefs.

I never said that the fire is literal and you obviously either ignored that post or missed it and claim that I put forth a misrepresentation of Mormonism. You are misrepresenting my understanding of Mormonism.

Ran77 · Feb 26, 2010

Katya,

I have something to add.

23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

Please consider what God is wanting for us to get out of this message. I don't feel that it is a message of do what I say or die a fiery death. This is a message about the state of our hearts. In order for Christ to return, the Earth must be cleansed of all evil. The millenium will begin and Christ will personally reign on Earth. That cannot happen if great wickedness exists here. A purging is necessary.

The surrounding verses discuss the wicked and the proud. I believe that these specific words are chosen for a reason. Now consider what is being asked of the saints - to sacrifice and tithe. Those who sacrifice and tithe will be humble they will have thankful and giving hearts. These are the very traits we will need to have to meet our Savior in the flesh. Don't you agree?

Does it seem reasonable to you, that if you pay your tithing the sacrifice that you make will make you more humble; sacrifice can make your more thankful for the blessings that you do have, and the test of faith that it represents is helping you be more obedient. Especially, if it's something you don't want to do.

Maybe it would help your struggle with it if you consider it an "investment in your spiritual growth." I hope that helps some.

Rescued One · Feb 26, 2010

How does one go up to Zion or "come unto Christ" in the LDS church? It is by keeping the commandments.

And now, my beloved son, notwithstanding their hardness, let us labor diligently; for if we should cease to labor, we should be brought under condemnation; for we have a labor to perform whilst in this tabernacle of clay, that we may conquer the enemy of all righteousness, and rest our souls in the kingdom of God. (Moroni 9:6)

Ran77 · Feb 26, 2010

Phoebe Ann said:
I never said that the fire is literal and you obviously either ignored that post or missed it and claim that I put forth a misrepresentation of Mormonism. You are misrepresenting my understanding of Mormonism.

In LDS doctrine, this burning is a literal fire. So, if your complaint is that I assumed you meant literal fire when you didn't - then I have only misrepresented your understanding by crediting you with understanding it better than you do.

Of course, what is really going on here is that you posted quotes without making any commentary yourself and then want to complain how I am misrepresenting you. Without any commets by you, there is no you to misrepresent.

LDS Tithing is not forced, however...

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Some College Guy

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Some College Guy

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Some College Guy

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Some College Guy

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Veteran

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Contributor

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Contributor

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Contributor

Similar threads