Some good verses in support of Freewill
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Terrence Theodore
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Zeena
When the intention of my heart was neither good nor evil.
When is doing evil not really evil? And, when (at what point in time), did you not ever do evil?
When I knew not enough to chose between the two as a moral agent.
Does ignorance make us innocent? Did Adam and Eve's ignorance make them innocent, or did God still punish them for their treason and rebellion?
In Prophecy of the Lord Jesus, the 'child' being Jesus;
Isaiah 7;16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.''
Help me to understand what point you're trying to make here.
And the innocent Nineveyans;
Jonah 4:11
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Are you trying to say that God spared Nineveh because they were innocent? If so, where do you get that from? Do you take the phrase "cannot discern between their right and left hand," to mean they were ignorant, and therefore God forgave them? Help me to understand your thinking. Thanks!
When the intention of my heart was neither good nor evil.
When is doing evil not really evil? And, when (at what point in time), did you not ever do evil?
When I knew not enough to chose between the two as a moral agent.
Does ignorance make us innocent? Did Adam and Eve's ignorance make them innocent, or did God still punish them for their treason and rebellion?
In Prophecy of the Lord Jesus, the 'child' being Jesus;
Isaiah 7;16
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.''
Help me to understand what point you're trying to make here.
And the innocent Nineveyans;
Jonah 4:11
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
Are you trying to say that God spared Nineveh because they were innocent? If so, where do you get that from? Do you take the phrase "cannot discern between their right and left hand," to mean they were ignorant, and therefore God forgave them? Help me to understand your thinking. Thanks!
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Terrence Theodore
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It's only a 'hard truth' because it's a LIE
Lies are easy to believe. Truth, however, never has been accepted easy. Its hard to believe truth. Very very difficult!!
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I don't mean to be egotistical but I AM very aware of my thoughts and DO feel shame for them and attempt to suppress them when they are evil
sometimes its beyond my control and almost seems to be some type of self destructive personality trait
the thoughts come and they make me uncomfortable and I just want them to go away
am I guilty for those thoughts? I may be somewhat responsible for them but am I guilty in the moments when I try and suppress them and realize what they are?
if I were shown a video of my thoughts I would not be surprised but I would be embarrassed...but if those thoughts are without intention and desire and I reject them are they really evil or are they some type of temptation?
we are not guilty for temptation since Jesus was tempted
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
Isn't it obvious from the text that there was a time when even Jesus, as a child, knew not to "refuse the evil and chose the good"?
Yes, that is EXACTLY what the text says.
No, lies are hard to believe, for they are against our nature, which is moral.
In the Image of God made He man.
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and I realize that from God's perspective nothing we do could ever even begin to live up to how good He is
but He being perfect and all realizes that we are weak humans born into consequence of sin and when we try to do the best we can despite our weaknesses...
when we endure and stand in the rain for what is right
when we seek God with all our heart
when we are remorseful for our short comings and attempt to overcome our negative personality traits
this pleases God
I don't care how perfect and great and amazing He is(and He is, I'm not taking away from that)
He made us, He knows who we are what we are capable of and we are capable of pleasing Him even in our fallen state
but He being perfect and all realizes that we are weak humans born into consequence of sin and when we try to do the best we can despite our weaknesses...
when we endure and stand in the rain for what is right
when we seek God with all our heart
when we are remorseful for our short comings and attempt to overcome our negative personality traits
this pleases God
I don't care how perfect and great and amazing He is(and He is, I'm not taking away from that)
He made us, He knows who we are what we are capable of and we are capable of pleasing Him even in our fallen state
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Terrence Theodore
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What you're describing is what I've been trying so hard to explain: man is a total mess! We think things we should not, and we do things we shouldn't. As a Christian, we are "made alive in Christ," and therefore now "can please God through faith." Apart from Christ however, "all our thoughts are evil continually" (Gen 6:5).
You see how you said you would be embarrassed to play back your thoughts? We ALL would be. Even though I know that you're thoughts are NOT different from me or anyone else, I STILL would be embarrassed if you saw my thoughts. Why? Because we know that they are wrong. You see how you say "sometimes its beyond my control?" Welcome to Life! Now here's some encouragement: you at least fight against it, and you do not like it. In fact, you are more than aware of them and why they aren't good. Guess what? The unsaved could careless about temptations! If they are worried about temptations, they are worried about the consequence (fear of getting caught or into trouble, etc). If you are worried about it in Jesus, it is because YOU REALLY DON'T WANT to cause grief, or hurt him.
To this all Christians are called - to be NEW Creations in Christ by being alive in the Spirit, but yet remaining/living/inhabiting dead flesh. Thus it is written, "the flesh wars against the spirit." "There is NOTHING good in the flesh" and "the flesh profits nothing." But again - and I'm kinda forgetting my point as i have working out on my mind - apart from Christ (faith in Jesus), we aren't good and all we do and think is evil (from God's perspective).
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
Yes, for there was a time when I was innocent. I didn't know better to do either good nor evil.. i just 'was'.
Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
Jeremiah 22:17
But thine eyes and thine heart are not but for thy covetousness, and for to shed innocent blood, and for oppression, and for violence, to do it.
Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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I just get the feeling that you are thinking in terms of a cold, mechanical, naturalistic perspective of us from God
yes we are separated by Sin, and theres merit to that
but God is love and God is heart and we are still capable of pleasing Him in a more emotional kind of way when we TRY
thats my opinion on that matter and I think thats why he sent His Son to die for us because even though we DON'T deserve it He still loves us and we still make Him happy in our own messed up kind of way
Kinda like when the Dog pees on the floor
ya its sucks to clean it up but you realize they are only a dog and still love them and they can make you happy or trigger that cute response even moments after peeing
heck even their response to being upset with them peeing on the floor can melt your heart
thats the way I think God sees us
I actually think the way we treat our pets says a lot about how much like God(or not) we truly are
yes we are separated by Sin, and theres merit to that
but God is love and God is heart and we are still capable of pleasing Him in a more emotional kind of way when we TRY
thats my opinion on that matter and I think thats why he sent His Son to die for us because even though we DON'T deserve it He still loves us and we still make Him happy in our own messed up kind of way
Kinda like when the Dog pees on the floor
ya its sucks to clean it up but you realize they are only a dog and still love them and they can make you happy or trigger that cute response even moments after peeing
heck even their response to being upset with them peeing on the floor can melt your heart
thats the way I think God sees us
I actually think the way we treat our pets says a lot about how much like God(or not) we truly are
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nobdysfool
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2 Corinthians 4:3-5 (New American Standard Bible)
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.
and what is the gospel?
"ok people I got some good news and I got some bad news...the good news is that God has chosen to save some of you...the bad news is that He's decided to condemn the rest for their sins"
*crowd reaction* fear, disappointment, anger, disgust, rebellion, attitudes of favoritism etc
or...
"28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
*crowd reaction* joy, praise to the creator of all, liberation, peace, happiness etc etc etc
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God give the light by His death on the cross.... the reason why people do not believe is that God does not determine or Kick Satan out of way so that they would see the need for Christ
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Zeena
..called to BE a Saint
That's not what that Scripture says;
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
God only gives people over to the torturer when they REFUSE the Light of Christ.
Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
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Charis kai Dunamis
χάρις καὶ δύναμις
I don't get what "free will" even means. Free from what? Even if you are somehow free from the sovereignty of God 
, you still aren't free from your surroundings, your upbringings, your physical/mental disabilities, your birth, etc. How free can your will possibly be? And to what end?
, you still aren't free from your surroundings, your upbringings, your physical/mental disabilities, your birth, etc. How free can your will possibly be? And to what end?
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Rightglory
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Jesusfreak5000,
It means free from force, coercion from any source, internal or external. Man is absolutely free in his freedom.
When you mention surroundings, our very nature, the influence of God, influence of satan these are just that, influences. They become options from which a rational soul makes determinative decisions from choices available. Man does not act out of necessity. That is free will.
And to what end? So that God who created man thus, could have a real, personal relationship with a creature. A creature that was free to return His love as well as reject that love. That is the height of Sovereignty and makes man an active participant with God in this world by his own desire.
It means free from force, coercion from any source, internal or external. Man is absolutely free in his freedom.
When you mention surroundings, our very nature, the influence of God, influence of satan these are just that, influences. They become options from which a rational soul makes determinative decisions from choices available. Man does not act out of necessity. That is free will.
And to what end? So that God who created man thus, could have a real, personal relationship with a creature. A creature that was free to return His love as well as reject that love. That is the height of Sovereignty and makes man an active participant with God in this world by his own desire.
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